|
The Shortest Path posted:"Victoria was a serial abuser" isn't the worst Worm-related hot take I've ever seen, but it's up there. What's the worst? Director Tagg Did Nothing Wrong? Because I've definitely seen that one a few times. "Victoria was a serial abuser" is definitely pretty bad, though.
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2018 18:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 12:56 |
|
|
Various forms of "Cauldron/Eidolon/Tagg/Piggot/Skitter/Trickster did nothing wrong" are all fairly common, though Bonesaw is probably the worst of those.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
"Victoria should get over her issues with Amy, its been like 2 years" is one that I can't wrap my head around, but I've seen it more than once.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2018 23:21
|
|
|
Do you think Amy is over her issues with Victoria?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 02:58
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:Do you think Amy is over her issues with Victoria? who knows we havent spent any appreciable amount of time in her head yet like thats the real answer, maybe she's worked on her poo poo and maybe she hasn't, we dont have enough info about what shes doing or been doing that we cant really make that call
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:19
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:Do you think Amy is over her issues with Victoria? No. Have you read the Dot interlude?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:29
|
|
|
The Dot interlude was fuckin adorable, and the best part is that Amy made a friend 
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 03:53
|
|
|
eidolon just wanted to be a good hero 
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 04:35
|
|
|
yeah what did he do really wrong? he was involved in the cauldron conspiracy but i can't remember any specifics about what his involvement was. the endbringer thing was clearly unintentional.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 05:07
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:yeah what did he do really wrong? he was involved in the cauldron conspiracy but i can't remember any specifics about what his involvement was. the endbringer thing was clearly unintentional. He criminally underused his absurd power.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 05:09
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:yeah what did he do really wrong? he was involved in the cauldron conspiracy but i can't remember any specifics about what his involvement was. the endbringer thing was clearly unintentional. IMO as part of the inner circle, it doesn't much matter how involved with certain elements he was - he as good as allowed Cauldron's human experiments. There's some element of path dependence in that Scion came so close to destroying everything that you can't discount them from having contributed, but in the end Scion destroyed them before he was destroyed, and they weren't the decisive element in taking him down. Who knows if a less inhumane approach would have had the same payoff, but their methods were always evil, and only possibly justified by whether it was a necessary evil, which is a subjective and self-serving rationalization at best.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 05:12
|
|
|
He wasn't just involved in cauldron, he was in the main like.. 6 or so of them that ran everything (doctor, contessa, alexandria, eidolan, number man, doormaker+clairvoyent guy). There is plenty to argue about if they were right or wrong or made things better or worse, but he was definitely involved and/or had knowledge of all the bad poo poo cauldron did.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 05:37
|
|
|
If Cauldron hadn't existed then Taylor would never have seen Eden and been unable to kill Zion, ultimately. So their actions were essential, and as such Contessa's power guided them as such toward their desired end state of seeing Zion dead, it just happened in a very different way than they expected. Whether or not that's evil is up to interpretation, I guess. As to Eidolon specifically, I think he was more concerned with his own power than the intangible goal of saving humanity, and he made a few selfish, bad decisions such as during the Echidna fight.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 06:00
|
|
|
But what did Trickster do wrong?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 06:39
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:If Cauldron hadn't existed then Taylor would never have seen Eden and been unable to kill Zion, ultimately. So their actions were essential, and as such Contessa's power guided them as such toward their desired end state of seeing Zion dead, it just happened in a very different way than they expected. Whether or not that's evil is up to interpretation, I guess. Again, path dependence. Hard to say that Cauldron doing anything else would have worked, but it's only completely justified if the only possible way to kill Scion was to play the events out as they did, or worse, which can't be definitively established one way or another. The final scene with Contessa is kind of telling in that a) even in victory, Taylor would have done it differently, given the choice (kind-of-sort-of connected to Cauldron's own shedding of morals and ethics in service to the mission) and b) Cauldron's approach to the problem was never oriented in the right direction to start with, even if it accidentally pushed others towards the right solution.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 06:49
|
|
|
sunken fleet posted:But what did Trickster do wrong? He massively prolonged the Echidna fight and likely directly killed at least a few people in the process. Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Again, path dependence. Hard to say that Cauldron doing anything else would have worked, but it's only completely justified if the only possible way to kill Scion was to play the events out as they did, or worse, which can't be definitively established one way or another. The final scene with Contessa is kind of telling in that a) even in victory, Taylor would have done it differently, given the choice (kind-of-sort-of connected to Cauldron's own shedding of morals and ethics in service to the mission) and b) Cauldron's approach to the problem was never oriented in the right direction to start with, even if it accidentally pushed others towards the right solution. They did what Contessa's power said would lead to eventually defeating Zion. That makes it justified, but it does not necessarily make it right or moral. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 07:30
|
|
|
I think if you're getting into 'this thing will destroy literally every single Earth' level scenarios, any sort of moral hand-wringing about ends and means becomes utterly bizarre. It gets weirder when you involve half a dozen precogs with the most prominent of them maybe even saying that it was the only course of action that would defeat Scion (or maybe not, who knows).
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:06
|
|
|
Honestly with the amount of causality interference and general precog fuckery in Worm, literally all actions taken can be justified with "the ends justify the means" reasoning. It's a pain in the rear end to think about, so I try to avoid doing so. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:22
|
|
|
This is all ignoring that "how do we kill this guy" may have been the wrong loving question in the first place. Taylor ultimately has to bully a person who is hurting, and hurting badly, to death because of the choices others made a long time ago.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:41
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:This is all ignoring that "how do we kill this guy" may have been the wrong loving question in the first place. It's almost like worm as a work is a book about hosed up people making bad decisions to do not good things and justifying them to themselves and the people around them and the central question it poses is "how bullshit ate these justifications" and there's no one right answer
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:55
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:This is all ignoring that "how do we kill this guy" may have been the wrong loving question in the first place. I'm not really sure what other question you think could have been asked. Zion and Eden were interdimensional entities that had consumed countless worlds and races and planned to do so again. Killing them was the only means to prevent humanity's destruction, either due to Zion rampaging and killing everyone or the shards completing their harvest and killing everyone. Taylor having to effectively bully Zion to death is an ironic end to her story which was so driven by the bullying she was the victim of, but was unquestionably the correct and only thing to do. Mind controlling and sacrificing countless hundreds of other capes was the morally ambiguous part of her choice, not that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:57
|
|
|
Like sure maybe they set the whole thing in motion by making the decision to kill Scion, or maybe they didn't, maybe that was something the simurgh did, maybe the shards' innate drive to conflict would have eventually pushed him over the edge and it was just a matter of time and jack was just the catalyst that came up first, who fuckin knows, it's also a book that's full of causality tricks to the point where I've seen some elaborate rear end "simurgh did it" threads that I couldn't actually construct an argument against with the text because gently caress maybe simurgh did create mannequin for Reasons
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:58
|
|
|
In conclusion worm is a study in contrasts
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 08:59
|
|
|
BENGHAZI 2 posted:Like sure maybe they set the whole thing in motion by making the decision to kill Scion, or maybe they didn't, maybe that was something the simurgh did, maybe the shards' innate drive to conflict would have eventually pushed him over the edge and it was just a matter of time and jack was just the catalyst that came up first, who fuckin knows, it's also a book that's full of causality tricks to the point where I've seen some elaborate rear end "simurgh did it" threads that I couldn't actually construct an argument against with the text because gently caress maybe simurgh did create mannequin for Reasons This is the really dumb thing I think - it can be argued that the combination of the Simurgh and Contessa indirectly caused every single event that happened in the entire book whether intentionally or not. That makes it a lot less interesting though, and also trying to think through all the chains of causality is an exercise in frustration and pointlessness.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 09:01
|
|
BENGHAZI 2 posted:Like sure maybe they set the whole thing in motion by making the decision to kill Scion, or maybe they didn't, maybe that was something the simurgh did, maybe the shards' innate drive to conflict would have eventually pushed him over the edge and it was just a matter of time and jack was just the catalyst that came up first, who fuckin knows, it's also a book that's full of causality tricks to the point where I've seen some elaborate rear end "simurgh did it" threads that I couldn't actually construct an argument against with the text because gently caress maybe simurgh did create mannequin for Reasons What's the maybe? I'm sure there's a chapter shortly after Scion begins his murder spree where either Doctor Mother or Number Man says specifically that sooner or later, Scion would inevitably do his life cycle thing and wipe out all Earths. But by putting the Jack plan into play, it allowed them to have it take place earlier when they had more capes and the highest chance of success.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 09:10
|
|
|
Anyway, 👏 Armsmaster 👏 did 👏 nothing 👏 wrong.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 09:21
|
|
|
Milky Moor posted:What's the maybe? I'm sure there's a chapter shortly after Scion begins his murder spree where either Doctor Mother or Number Man says specifically that sooner or later, Scion would inevitably do his life cycle thing and wipe out all Earths. But by putting the Jack plan into play, it allowed them to have it take place earlier when they had more capes and the highest chance of success. Literally nobody in this story has all the information though because there's so many borderline omniscient people pushing pieces around and throwing off each other's plans
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 09:48
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:They did what Contessa's power said would lead to eventually defeating Zion. That makes it justified, but it does not necessarily make it right or moral. The Shortest Path posted:This is the really dumb thing I think - it can be argued that the combination of the Simurgh and Contessa indirectly caused every single event that happened in the entire book whether intentionally or not. That makes it a lot less interesting though, and also trying to think through all the chains of causality is an exercise in frustration and pointlessness. https://www.reddit.com/r/Parahumans/comments/7w3tt8/unpopular_opinions_of_characters_in_worm/dtxp42o/?context=2 https://www.reddit.com/r/Parahumans/comments/4arfdp/spoilers_all_what_if/d13mx7i/ To be fair, neither have to succeed 100% of the time for the dominoes they set up to appear intimidatingly impressive or complete. EDIT: Grammar Doctor w-rw-rw- fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 10:17
|
|
|
NecroMonster posted:Do you think Amy is over her issues with Victoria? Reading between the lines a bit. No. No she has similar sized pile of issues as Victoria and going by the Dot interlude unlike Victoria she doesn't have the support network to help her manage it as she does. That whole reconciliation bbq Carol organized she likely got the same treatment as Victoria by her mother. Surprise Victoria is also going to be here and now you can be sister again, probably including a heavy dose of lying about Victoria being okay with that. Which considering its Amy was probably enough for her to hide in the house, see Victoria show up and have her hear that she is literally nightmare inducing for Victoria.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 11:02
|
|
|
I loving loved Worm, don't get me wrong, but it does some stuff that really baffles me. Wildbow was really smart to limit certain powers that would completely change society (mind reading, healing, teleportation, reproducible supertech)... and then he includes multiple nigh-infallible precogs. I think you could remove at least 50% of the precog stuff (maybe keep Simurgh, Coil and Dinah, lose the doomsday prophecy, Contessa and Jack Slash's bullshit Idiot Ball secondary power) and have the result be a much better story. If nothing else, it would at least make the characters feel like they have a lot more agency if there wasn't this huge 'well, it had to happen that way, because
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 12:26
|
|
|
sunken fleet posted:But what did Trickster do wrong? He was mean to Vista that one time at the end of the wards' interlude. Bad guy imo I started thinking about King's power and now I'm wondering what it looks like. Like if he gets shot, does the bullet just stop and someone else gets a gun wound? What if he gets exploded? Does some rando get thrown across a room? Would he be invincible for a day if he touched crawler? Does it work if the injury being transferred would go to a prosthetic? Does 'among' mean 'shared equally between'? So many questions. What if he just held his breath for a real long time? That'd be hosed up. If he touched enough people would it even matter? How the gently caress did it make him immune to grey boy? That doesn't make any drat sense. Being in a time loop isn't really physical harm. Gitro fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 15:40
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:He massively prolonged the Echidna fight and likely directly killed at least a few people in the process.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:14
|
|
|
It was established that whenever precog powers intersect they both pull up blanks instead of answers. That is actually a huge aspect as to why cauldron's approach might not even have the justification of "well this was the way that ended up with us winning": when procogs try to do their stuff with Scion it fails. So Contessa saying "How do I beat Scion" gives nothing, while "How do I build the strongest group of parahumans by this date" gives a path for what they did. Precog powers tend to be imprecise or otherwise lovely to have. The PRT guys had weird abstract things for events, Dinah is just probabilities (not why it is more or less likely over multiple questions, just the raw numbers), Contessa has to question if she has any agency in anything she ever does. The Simurgh is closer to bullshit than anyone with powers, but I think it is over credited on what things are possible (think of it like pool trick shots, some things just aren't possible, but with perfect knowledge and a precise hit you can do a lot). The stuff with Echidna is a good example. It seems a lot more likely that the Simurgh's actions are much more: pull these guys from other earth, pull these vials from cauldron, mind whammy them until noel is in the right state of mind to take half a vial. After that the plan doesn't need anything else, Trickster will keep her alive and eventually she'll lose control. Not some super spiral that ends with the events happening exactly as they did in the story, but launching that time bomb into the world. Especially since the only purpose for the end bringers is to give Eidolan a challenge where Echidna ends up doesn't matter, he'll still be able to go there to deal with it. Trickster is kind of a piece of poo poo and threw all his friends to the wolves, though you could argue he got mind fuckled by the Simurgh. He did throw as many people into Echidna as he could, I can't remember if he straight killed anyone in that fight or not but it wouldn't surprise me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:32
|
|
|
Trickster was also a serial manipulator and emotional abuser towards noelle. He's a gigantic rear end in a top hat, a likeable rear end in a top hat, but an rear end in a top hat nonetheless.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
berenzen posted:Trickster was also a serial manipulator and emotional abuser towards noelle. He's a gigantic rear end in a top hat, a likeable rear end in a top hat, but an rear end in a top hat nonetheless. On the other hand Noelle is a literal murder machine and if he was honest with her horrible things would happen so like poo poo sucks, all the way around
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
BENGHAZI 2 posted:On the other hand Noelle is a literal murder machine and if he was honest with her horrible things would happen so like think they means before she was a murder machine
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:32
|
|
|
Scion was only vulnerable because of his assumed humanity, something he couldn't undo or get away from thanks to Eden's downfall. Treating Scion as merely or fully an Entity is probably a bit short sighted. Of course, that's what nearly everyone did, with a very small handful of exceptions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 23:26
|
|
|
ZypherIM posted:The Simurgh is closer to bullshit than anyone with powers, but I think it is over credited on what things are possible (think of it like pool trick shots, some things just aren't possible, but with perfect knowledge and a precise hit you can do a lot). The stuff with Echidna is a good example. It seems a lot more likely that the Simurgh's actions are much more: pull these guys from other earth, pull these vials from cauldron, mind whammy them until noel is in the right state of mind to take half a vial. After that the plan doesn't need anything else, Trickster will keep her alive and eventually she'll lose control. Not some super spiral that ends with the events happening exactly as they did in the story, but launching that time bomb into the world. Especially since the only purpose for the end bringers is to give Eidolan a challenge where Echidna ends up doesn't matter, he'll still be able to go there to deal with it. Simurgh also sets up the events that result in Cody killing accord, which is a bit bigger on the fine details. I think something like the pool metaphor is specifically used in the bit of writing from the simurgh's perspective though, something about understanding people and tuning events to evoke the right reaction/s at the right time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 00:12
|
|
ZypherIM posted:It was established that whenever precog powers intersect they both pull up blanks instead of answers. That is actually a huge aspect as to why cauldron's approach might not even have the justification of "well this was the way that ended up with us winning": when procogs try to do their stuff with Scion it fails. So Contessa saying "How do I beat Scion" gives nothing, while "How do I build the strongest group of parahumans by this date" gives a path for what they did. I thought Contessa asked 'How do I beat [something exactly like Scion but not explicitly Scion]?' as a way of getting around the shard limitation.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 00:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 12:56 |
|
|
Milky Moor posted:I thought Contessa asked 'How do I beat [something exactly like Scion but not explicitly Scion]?' as a way of getting around the shard limitation. "Worm Interlude 29 posted:How do we stop them? They're on a path to build an army/weapons, not defeat a Scion-like being (it makes her blank out). Note that they don't stumble on the idea of using Scion's psychological weakness OR using foil's shard, the two things that were the main things used to actually beat Scion. There are probably some other approaches that are viable, but their goal is to build the strongest army because that is what they can think of to do against a multi-dimensional demigod. Dug around a bit more on Simurgh, can't really find the range of her direct influence. Her chapter had a passively watching everything, followed by a lot of priming people to have responses from certain situations, evoking memories/feelings/hallucinations, and stuff like that, combined with farther future sight when she focused on someone. It is hard to write something like that consistently because we're just human and you'll never perfectly write the scenario. Given that precogs form a limiter to her planning reach, it makes more sense to approach her pulled back a little (or just say that literally everything in the story after her first appearance was caused by her, which imo makes a lovely story). For example maybe she sets up noelle hard (because all you need is the half vial and she'll blow eventually), and seeds cody and others. She observes and waits for opportune times to nudge them more (during one of her attacks, ie attacking the plan with the chinese leader's heir on it), or pops some direct influence when the timing is right(when she scrambles the data file on amy talking to the camera in the birdcage).
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 02:52
|
|