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Hello thread I have procured a hardwood ash countertop - 40x610x3000mm. The idea is to cut it into three pieces (such that the 3000mm becomes 2 x 900 + 1 x 1200 or thereabouts) and make a simple "desk". Something like this:  My question is about the joints: Visually, I would really like to cut the countertop at a 45 degree mitre, but structurally, that might not be the best of ideas. I have a kreg pocket hole jig which I imagine I'd use. Alternatively, some sort of bracket, but the less visible, the better. I think pocket holes in the "ceiling" only would look very nice. Conventional internet wisdom says that you totally can't pocket hole screw join a joint like this, but this is 40mm hardwood. There should be plenty of material to bite into, if one is careful about screw placement. Edit: Left joint or right joint: 
bolind fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 10:22
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Regardless of what you do you will want some diagonal braces, otherwise the entire thing will wobble left to right all the time. In your second illustration, the right will be able to carry much more weight and be simpler to build.
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Apr 18, 2018 11:39
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Blind miter dovetail maybe? I only suggest as I have been reading a bunch of woodworking books and came across the 'what looks like a miter but is stronger' discussion a few days ago.
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Apr 18, 2018 11:48
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Also, if you jig your butt joints, your jig holes will be in your legs not the underside of your top, if that affects your planning. E: it's not the weight of your usage that it's going to collapse it, it's the weight of your top. Without some kind of back bracing or L brackets, you are probably going to break your glue and strip your screws pretty quickly. Huxley fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 12:06
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nielsm posted:Regardless of what you do you will want some diagonal braces, otherwise the entire thing will wobble left to right all the time. The plan is to get away without that, although I realize it's a risk. I think that if the joint is made stiff enough, the thickness of the material will make it sturdy enough for the use it'll see. nielsm posted:In your second illustration, the right will be able to carry much more weight and be simpler to build. That's true, but even the 45 degree angle solution is more than adequate for the use it'll see (two laptops and two cups of coffee.) That Works posted:Blind miter dovetail maybe? Yes I'll just cut that on my 17-axis CNC router, why didn't I think of that.  A constraint is that I only have access to certain hand tools. No table saw, regrettably.
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Apr 18, 2018 12:06
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You could do finger joints, which are strong, relatively easy, and look good.bolind posted:A constraint is that I only have access to certain hand tools. No table saw, regrettably. Or not.
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Apr 18, 2018 12:07
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What about a splined miter or doweling though from each axis after?
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Apr 18, 2018 12:09
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With limited tools I would probably go for a dowel reinforced miter. Easy to do with a shop made drilling jig and plenty of strength for the application. If you meant pocket holes in a miter, they will almost certainly end up far too close to the inner edge of the miter to get any kind of penetration into the other board. The angles very nearly cancel each other out in practice.
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Apr 18, 2018 12:39
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bolind posted:That's true, but even the 45 degree angle solution is more than adequate for the use it'll see (two laptops and two cups of coffee.) Plus its own weight and the eight of anyone who puts their hands on it when standing up. Would you tolerate box joints or dovetails? You may still want something to prevent racking even then.
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Apr 18, 2018 12:44
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Hypnolobster posted:If you meant pocket holes in a miter, they will almost certainly end up far too close to the inner edge of the miter to get any kind of penetration into the other board. The angles very nearly cancel each other out in practice. I've been thinking that this was only true for "thin" boards, but making a simple sketch (assuming the pocket hole angle is 15 degrees) it becomes evident that it's quite difficult to get good purchase in both parts:  Hypnolobster posted:With limited tools I would probably go for a dowel reinforced miter. Easy to do with a shop made drilling jig and plenty of strength for the application. I'm open for that. What would a drilling rig look like? I don't have a column drill currently. Again, regrettably.
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Apr 18, 2018 13:11
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bolind posted:I've been thinking that this was only true for "thin" boards, but making a simple sketch (assuming the pocket hole angle is 15 degrees) it becomes evident that it's quite difficult to get good purchase in both parts:
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Apr 18, 2018 13:14
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The solution you're looking for is right joint with pocket screws, and a cross piece to prevent it from folding up. Since you're talking in metric I'll assume you can't just get a $2 fir stud at Home Depot, but whatever wood is cheap and strong where you are can probably be stained to match the ash well enough to be hidden underneath the thing. Or keep trying to haggle with the people you're asking for advice, I guess.
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Apr 18, 2018 13:25
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Platystemon posted:You could do finger joints, which are strong, relatively easy, and look good. I vote for this also, and it would mostly, if not entirely eliminate the need for bracing. Strongest option available. You don't need much in the way of tools, but patience is a must.
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Apr 18, 2018 13:52
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ilkhan posted:That's... Not how you use pocket screws. I'm trying to illustrate why it's a bad idea... so I guess we agree?
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Apr 18, 2018 14:09
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Javid posted:The solution you're looking for is right joint with pocket screws, and a cross piece to prevent it from folding up. Since you're talking in metric I'll assume you can't just get a $2 fir stud at Home Depot, but whatever wood is cheap and strong where you are can probably be stained to match the ash well enough to be hidden underneath the thing. bolind, this is the simplest answer that will provide you with the most satisfaction relative to the work that needs to be performed. If you're asking the questions you are and have no tools, you're not at a level where you'll be satisfied with how your dowelled mitres or hand-cut 2'+ long finger joints look, especially if you only have this one large, expensive piece of wood with which to get everything perfect the first time. I absolutely don't mean that to be insulting-- just realistic!
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Apr 18, 2018 14:56
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bolind posted:I'm trying to illustrate why it's a bad idea... so I guess we agree? Well you’ve got the screws in the wrong side of the board So like, Double not how you do it
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Apr 18, 2018 15:10
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Sockser posted:Well you’ve got the screws in the wrong side of the board It's just showing the path of the screw through both pieces, there's no screw in the picture. Calm down.
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Apr 18, 2018 15:12
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Yeah, it's just an example showing how if you set your screws deep in your hole-board you don't catch enough receiving board and vice versa. I will go so far as to say pocketholes on mitered edges is officially a Bad Idea™. Whether you do butt joints with pocketholes and glue or just a straight glue-up (or dowels or whatever) on mitered edges, I would personally still go and buy, oh, let's say 3 of these for each side: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-8-in-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace-15215/202033926 And a box of 1" screws (or whatever the metric standard is for getting a good bite into 40mm without risking a blowout. Then if I was shoving it against the wall I'd still put some sort of lateral support on there because those six 8" braces plus pocketholes plus glue will probably hold, but why find out? I would maybe risk it for aesthetics if I was leaving it out in the middle of the room or whatever. Not before I gave it a good lean or two on each corner. It'll tell you if it's going to give. Not trying to gently caress with your vision or anything, we just don't want your desk to fall apart and hurt a child or a cat or something. Huxley fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 15:27
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If I was trying to make that, I'd butt joint it like I was saying, but just do RSS lags straight down through the top, in 3/4" recesses just deep enough to put a plug over them to make it look nice. 3 or 4 structural lags in each side would be hilarious overkill for a table that size and probably solid enough to not need reinforcement, while taking the minimal effort. E: here's a table I built the same way, minus recessing the screws. Javid posted:
With 1/4x5" lags, you're not pulling them out unless you REALLY want to. You can even just not recess them if you find the nice round headed ones, they're kind of a bronzey color anyway which might look fine. Javid fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 15:38
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Javid, how did you bore the pilot holes into the end grain? I've got to put a roughly 3/4"x4" hole into end grain. I feel like a twist bit won't work. Maybe a forstner or auger?
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Apr 18, 2018 16:03
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My pilot holes were 3/16"x4 so just a normal twist bit worked. For 3/4, forstner bit.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:06
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Oh boy, the "I've got a plan and just want validation that it is a good plan" post. Look at how similar commercial sold tables are constructed. They all have a stretcher between the legs, that runs against the top. Generally they are short enough that you don't see the stretcher when looking at the table from the average eye height of an adult human. The stretcher helps resist racking as well as splay should one leg panel receive forces that try to pull it away from the rest of the assembly (such as a kick to the inside of the panel, or someone lifting up one end and dragging the other.) The corner joint is going to be narrowed by : Do you care if the joinery is visible? Do you care if the corners are mitered? If you are attempting to make the table appear as one length of wood that flows in a table like form, then you'll need to hide your joinery and miter the corners. The stretcher will be even more critical here because the corners will have very little strength at all. Also: not that you really need to do a blind mitered dovetail, but a table saw isn't really going to help you too much on that joint. It involves a lot of hand tool skill.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:39
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GEMorris posted:Oh boy, the "I've got a plan and just want validation that it is a good plan" post. I apologize if that's how I came across. I try very hard not to be zaurg-y. Let me write the post I probably should have written originally: The missus and I could use a small, tall desk for a little mini office for our new condo. We're only there for about 18 months, though, so I don't want to spend too much on it. The engineering exercise is to see what the best solution could be given the available resources. While I'm not a woodworker, I'm not a complete newbie either. I've turned a balancing board, built a custom crouqet mallet, routed a knife block, built a small kitchen, a small climbing wall and a guest bed with storage:      In a perfect world, I'd like to joint to be 45°, no visible joinery, brackets or stretchers, and strong enough to hold whatever it needs, made with the tools I have. I realize that this might not be possible, and the quest is now to figure out what the best compromise would be. Trust me, the last thing I want is a piece of furniture that's not up to the task. I basically hate poo poo that doesn't work. I think a finger joint/box joint would look very nice, but I'm not sure I'll be able to pull it off. Currently, I'm leaning towards a butt joint with pocket hole screws, and the a small stretcher made from high quality 18mm plywood (I have some sitting around.) In conclusion, I appreciate the replies, and I assure you all that I won't go off and do anything stupid.  Sockser posted:Well you’ve got the screws in the wrong side of the board I realize that pocket holes on the outside obviously will create the stronger joint, but given the right material and thickness and considering the forces the joint needs to withstand, it can be perfectly viable to do it from the inside. cakesmith handyman posted:It's just showing the path of the screw through both pieces, there's no screw in the picture. Calm down. Precisely. I was just trying to illustrate that the geometry is such that pocket holes from the inside combined with a 45° joint is basically impossible.
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Apr 19, 2018 07:35
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You need pocket screws from the outside without a mitre, or pocket screws from the inside without a mitre. Either way you want a stretcher or back wall. Have fun.
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Apr 19, 2018 14:36
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Sounds like you're getting there, but to repeat: A long 45 degree end-grain joint with no ww experience with limited hand tools, no power tools, no specialized joining setup will not happen. Do the easy thing. Remember that you don't build a table to hold the stuff it'll hold most of the time, but rather to withstand the oddball extreme forces it gets occasionally.
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Apr 20, 2018 06:40
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Here is something I have been working on. Its a base for a liquor cabinet. I carved the legs with a rasp.  There is also a secret compartment: https://www.instagram.com/p/BhpTHiygA4j/
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Apr 20, 2018 12:46
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drat nice work
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Apr 20, 2018 13:19
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mds2 posted:Here is something I have been working on. Its a base for a liquor cabinet. I carved the legs with a rasp.  Nice stuff dude. Any recs on where to read up on how to do that with a rasp / suggestions for rasps to own?
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Apr 20, 2018 13:33
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mds2 posted:Here is something I have been working on. Its a base for a liquor cabinet. I carved the legs with a rasp. Holy balls, those legs are rad and the grain figure (walnut, right?) on the front really pops too. Nice.
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Apr 20, 2018 15:49
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Finally finished a table that took an embarrassingly long time to complete:
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Apr 20, 2018 17:38
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mds2 posted:Here is something I have been working on. Its a base for a liquor cabinet. I carved the legs with a rasp. I love that the legs twist in opposite directions from corner to corner, so it looks matched. Also the drop-down secret shelf is rad, and the work is otherwise beautiful as well. swampface posted:Finally finished a table that took an embarrassingly long time to complete: That is also gorgeous, and I would like you to please show us how those drawers are made. I also really like the cut-in corners and how they match stylistically with the stretchers at the bottom and the exposed endgrain on the drawers.
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Apr 20, 2018 17:45
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That Works posted:
Twisting these was something that I wanted to try for a long time. Honestly, I just gouged away at it on some sample pieces until i figured it out. I used a 9" 10 grain Aurio Rasp to do all of it. I only own one Aurio rasp. Its really hard to describe how well the work, its remarkable. You certainly pay for the quality though. $110ish each. Here are a couple videos showing how I did it if you don't mind Instagram. Layout: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bfj9Ug2HCqI/ Carving: https://www.instagram.com/p/BfkGNNAHF22/
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Apr 20, 2018 17:54
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Leperflesh posted:That is also gorgeous, and I would like you to please show us how those drawers are made. I also really like the cut-in corners and how they match stylistically with the stretchers at the bottom and the exposed endgrain on the drawers. Thanks! The drawers are basically just a big fat box joint. I did actually put screws behind the pegs though, figured why not if I was going through the trouble of cutting those nice square holes.  Bottoms are cherry as well. When I make hardwood drawer bottoms I leave them a little thick and then taper the edges with a plane until they fit the groove (with some wiggle room).  As far as the design goes, I "borrowed" it from here and modified it to fit my needs.
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Apr 20, 2018 18:00
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Ah, that's really nice, thanks for showing your work.
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Apr 20, 2018 18:27
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swampface posted:Finally finished a table that took an embarrassingly long time to complete: Very nice. I love all the details.
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Apr 20, 2018 19:15
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I was trying to build a shoe bench cabinet thing but didn't really think too hard about the dimensions, and now I have a shoe cabinet/entry table, sort of. Oops. I'm waiting for the finish on the doors to cure and stop smelling and then I'll install them, but I at least have the legs on and most of my garage space back. 
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Apr 20, 2018 23:14
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Nice! What did you do for the legs?
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Apr 21, 2018 00:09
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mds2 posted:Here is something I have been working on. Its a base for a liquor cabinet. I carved the legs with a rasp. Great work! Great wood/grain selection and awesome legs, splayed and twisted, looking forward to seeing the top. swampface posted:Finally finished a table that took an embarrassingly long time to complete: Another nice one, I love anything cherry. I especially love that you wrapped the grain on the drawers. Are the pulls and plugs walnut?
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Apr 21, 2018 00:12
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Meow Meow Meow posted:Another nice one, I love anything cherry. I especially love that you wrapped the grain on the drawers. Are the pulls and plugs walnut? Yep. The original used ebony but I figured walnut was close enough and I had some lying around. I'm super happy with how the pulls turned out.
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Apr 21, 2018 00:41
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Phone posted:Nice! They're just some 6" hairpin legs I got off of Amazon. I was trying to find some of those splayed/slanted conical legs like you see on midcentury modern furniture, but I had no idea how to search for it. The hairpins will do for my limited woodworking skills. I also went and made the shelves repositionable with a shelf pins jig, so if I need to fit more doodads or shoes I can just cut some more shelves out of 1/2" plywood. 
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Apr 21, 2018 00:50
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