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I just started reading On the Road (because i'm a crazy person), can I get a chronological list of all the hate crimes Jack Kerouac committed so I can properly contextualise his work. But in all seriousness if I hated Naked Lunch will I also dislike this?
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Jun 6, 2018 02:42
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Boatswain posted:And for "re-contextualizing"; do you mean moving from obscenity trials to public callout? No, more that the previous generation seemed to believe that a work could be appreciated independently of the author and our current generation is beginning to reverse course on how much we can separate what is created from who creates it EDIT: I guess to be clearer, its not so much that we have to judge the book by its author, as much as we separate artist from individual. Think about how many artists of the previous generation saw continued success despite very public acts of immorality (Allen, Polanski, etc.). Its not so much saying that we have to judge a book by its writer, as much as should we celebrate and allow writers to continue to enjoy prestige and attention despite their actions? Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 04:06
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Wrageowrapper posted:I just started reading On the Road (because i'm a crazy person), can I get a chronological list of all the hate crimes Jack Kerouac committed so I can properly contextualise his work. It's nothing like Naked Lunch.
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Jun 6, 2018 04:18
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the NYRB classics line has put out a new collection of Robert Aickman stories and if you haven't read him you're loving up grievously
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Jun 6, 2018 06:33
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WASDF posted:I am reading Pedro Páramo by Juan Rulfo as the start of my summer reading Cool
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Jun 6, 2018 08:10
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chernobyl kinsman posted:the NYRB classics line has put out a new collection of Robert Aickman stories and if you haven't read him you're loving up grievously I just started reading him and I endorse this statement. His stories are haunting. Anyone who enjoyed The Twenty Days Of Turin would like his work.
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Jun 6, 2018 12:41
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Cloks posted:I couldn't get into Murnane at all. I found his writing to be a lot like Phillip Glass music, very repetitive around a simple point with slight variations. The only difference is I like Glass. What did you enjoy about it? Which of his did you read? To be sure he is obsessive but he can also be very lyrical and very funny. Most of his characters are self-important, pompous, and very earnest and Murnane undercuts them in very funny ways. I've read The Plains and aforementioned Landscape with Landscape and both had me laughing out loud at points. E: There's also a very nice texture to his descriptions. Boatswain fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 13:01
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The Plains isn't really very repetitive although I could see how you would get that impression from Inland, which is the other one of his I read. he's all about elaborating on things he saw, imagined he saw, or imagined what someone else might have seen at some time.
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Jun 6, 2018 13:22
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Wrageowrapper posted:I just started reading On the Road (because i'm a crazy person), can I get a chronological list of all the hate crimes Jack Kerouac committed so I can properly contextualise his work. it's a bad book, i'd recommend reading the unedited manuscript though, that's a lot better than the original release
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Jun 6, 2018 14:02
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Franchescanado posted:This hasn't come up in White Noise yet, but so far he's done a lot of poo poo-talking satire about professors and academia and how it's all bullshit circle-jerking. White Noise was one of those books I had to read for my program's satire course, and it just didn't work for me at 21. Reread it a few years back and now it's one of my favorites. It's painfully funny at times and deals really well with the sort of dreamlike quality of catastrophic events that upend suburbanites' expectations of endless safety and prosperity. I think it completely nailed where middle class America was in the 80's. Saying it's irrelevant because it's about middle class white ennui is like saying Catch-22 holds no current value because it's about World War 2. WASDF posted:First of all: Don DeLillo is the most American writer, but it's not cause he can be associated with white, male, middle-class ennui novelists. And DFW is not abhorrent in most respects. See, this guy gets it. Squashing Machine fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 15:04
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chernobyl kinsman posted:the NYRB classics line has put out a new collection of Robert Aickman stories and if you haven't read him you're loving up grievously
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Jun 6, 2018 15:21
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true.spoon posted:This seems to be right up my alley, which collections/editions are the best to start? i havent read more than a couple of stories from the NYRB edition so I can't vouch for its strength, but dark entries and cold hand in mine are great places to start. the only editions in which theyre available have kind of cheesy covers but c'est la vie
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Jun 6, 2018 16:05
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Boatswain posted:Which of his did you read? To be sure he is obsessive but he can also be very lyrical and very funny. Most of his characters are self-important, pompous, and very earnest and Murnane undercuts them in very funny ways. I've read The Plains and aforementioned Landscape with Landscape and both had me laughing out loud at points. I read about half of Inland. He's very good at description but it seems like I picked a bad one to start with.
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Jun 6, 2018 16:10
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Squashing Machine posted:I think it completely nailed where middle class America was in the 80's. Saying it's irrelevant because it's about middle class white ennui is like saying Catch-22 holds no current value because it's about World War 2. Sure, but if a whole generation spent all of it's time almost exclusively writing about and celebrating WWII, Catch 22 would also be much less appealing in its subject matter. Middle class white ennui is Roth, Updike, Mailer, Delillo, Stone, Russo, etc.
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Jun 6, 2018 17:17
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Sure, but if a whole generation spent all of it's time almost exclusively writing about and celebrating WWII, Catch 22 would also be much less appealing in its subject matter. Except they did? There was an absolute shitload of writing done centered around the war, even presently. Acting like the problem of the "white middle class ennui writer" is about a glut of material on the topic and not just what you find personally interesting is a little much. Catch-22 endures from a lot of pretty marginal and unoriginal writing about the war because it takes an unusual tack and expands the topic past its ostensible borders. I think White Noise does the same thing.
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Jun 6, 2018 17:29
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i havent read more than a couple of stories from the NYRB edition so I can't vouch for its strength, but dark entries and cold hand in mine are great places to start. the only editions in which theyre available have kind of cheesy covers but c'est la vie I actually really like the covers but I came here from the horror thread so yeah they're probably bad If anybody is digging around for Aickman stories in other collections or whatever, I'll warn you that the most likely one you'll stumble across is Ringing the Changes, which is... fine. It's not really representative of his best work though, and is much more of a boilerplate horror story than is normal for him.
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Jun 6, 2018 17:30
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Squashing Machine posted:Except they did? There was an absolute shitload of writing done centered around the war, even presently. Acting like the problem of the "white middle class ennui writer" is about a glut of material on the topic and not just what you find personally interesting is a little much. I am white and middle class and filled with ennui. It's not that I dont like it, it's that it strangles out other perspectives and ends up creating a limited perspective on our culture when its prominence outweighs its actual representation of the nation. The abundance of sad white man lit frustrates me because it prioritizes the idea of white middle class masculinity at the ur-theme of modern American lit.
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Jun 6, 2018 17:38
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I mean, there are elements to White Noise I like. The idea of Airborne Toxic Event as a form of how we nullify modern fears through obscure language is brilliant. But at the same time it's also a story about a guy wrestling with his own sense of personal value while finding out his depressed wife is loving some other dude. It's basically American Beauty plus a deadly cloud
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Jun 6, 2018 17:43
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I am white and middle class and filled with ennui. It's not that I dont like it, it's that it strangles out other perspectives and ends up creating a limited perspective on our culture when its prominence outweighs its actual representation of the nation. The abundance of sad white man lit frustrates me because it prioritizes the idea of white middle class masculinity at the ur-theme of modern American lit. I just find that most of it reads as incredibly dated. To harp on the example of Don Delillo . . Take White Noise. When it was written it was moderately amusing; the notion of the chair of a Department of Hitler Studies who does not speak German, clearly someone who had failed upward into accidental success, was moderately cynical but ultimately amusing because that sort of success was relatively common in the 1980's, especially among the book's audience: if you were an academic in the 1980's, you knew people like that or were one yourself or some mix of both, and your students had a reasonable expectation of the same. Today? You read that passage and you want to wheel out the guillotine. It's not funny any more, it's just deeply offensive. The protagonist isn't sympathetic at all, and as a result neither are his problems; the whole book comes across as an extended privileged whine. I don't know if other similar privileged-white-dude authors would strike me the same way if I re-read them today, I just happened to re-read White Noise a few years ago and was particularly struck by how much the cultural context of the protagonist's privilege has changed.
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Jun 6, 2018 17:51
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The white dude author who strikes me as the most painfully White Dude is Richard Ford
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Jun 6, 2018 17:53
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, there are elements to White Noise I like. The idea of Airborne Toxic Event as a form of how we nullify modern fears through obscure language is brilliant. So? The entire problem of the book is that the promise of achieving the middle class American dream still can't save you from doubt, from failed relationships, from death. Delillo points out the howling void at the center of that existence, and you either fill it by stuffing your cart at the grocery story, going on meaningless tourist trips, or medicating yourself. I think it's completely worthwhile and valuable to interrogate the mindset of someone living in that condition, and it obviously struck a nerve with what was probably a lot of suburbanites sitting around thinking "well, now what?"
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Jun 6, 2018 17:58
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Squashing Machine posted:So? The entire problem of the book is that the promise of achieving the middle class American dream still can't save you from doubt, from failed relationships, from death. Delillo points out the howling void at the center of that existence, and you either fill it by stuffing your cart at the grocery story, going on meaningless tourist trips, or medicating yourself. The problem is that this the most cliche theme in mid to late 20th century American Literature. Nothing about that idea is unique or provocative. It was the thematic status quo of the era.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:02
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If there was one benefit to 9/11 it's that it woke us from our cultural doldrum of thinking "I buy things but still am not happy" is a good premise for an entire generation of novelists
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Jun 6, 2018 18:03
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I don't see any push for sympathy for the main character in White Noise, though. He's a complete failure in every aspect of his life. Every marriage he's had fails, his current marriage is failing, he admires his wife because she's stronger than he is and yet he makes it painfully clear she's pretty much a failure who tries to combat her depression and fear of death by helping the elderly with mundane tasks that don't actually help them. He hates his college because everyone around him looks at Coca Cola bottles and bends over backwards to create awe over consumerism and think that they are geniuses for enjoying comic books and TV, trying to define the world they live in while completely missing the point and confusing themselves further. The only co-worker he likes wants to be him, but is better at it than he is. His children hate each other, they hate his wife and they hate him, and all of the kids have failed to live up to their parents expectations. The only importance he has in life is that he's an expert on Hitler, and that's more of a facade than anything, because he can't even learn simple German. To me that seems to be the joke. The era they live in is killing them with culture, making them numb to any sense of worth or real greatness in existing, and yet that's the only thing that interests them anymore; meanwhile the supposedly smartest people in this town are up their own asses studying the phenomenon of tourism and cereal boxes. I don't think that any of it has been especially funny, but I don't think I'm supposed to like anyone in this book. Maybe his nihilistic son who plays chess with serial killers? edit: I think the biggest problem with White Noise, isn't that it hasn't aged well, it's just that it's satire and cynicism is kind of the norm, and has been for a while. That, and that many other works in film and literature have tackled the same ideas better and in more interesting ways. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 18:09
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The problem is that this the most cliche theme in mid to late 20th century American Literature. Nothing about that idea is unique or provocative. It was the thematic status quo of the era. So if a book's topic is too well-tread, no amount of creative interest or art can make it worthwhile? One Hundred Years of Solitude goes out the window then, it's just more patrilineal family drama. Love in the Time of Cholera is will-they-won't-they garbage that amounts to a hill of beans. Crime and Punishment is just a NBC late night procedural. There's nothing new under the sun. Saying that "well, too many people took a shot at this topic that was obviously trenchant at the time so it's cancelled" seems to say that you're way more concerned with the ancillary crap surrounding these books than the books themselves.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:10
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If there was one benefit to 9/11 it's that it woke us from our cultural doldrum of thinking "I buy things but still am not happy" is a good premise for an entire generation of novelists Part of me wants to agree, but was anything as tepid as the flood of post-9/11 fiction "I buy things, but still, not -- WHAT THE gently caress WAS THAT OH poo poo -- and yet, a year later, still not happy"
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Jun 6, 2018 18:10
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If there was one benefit to 9/11 it's that it woke us from our cultural doldrum of thinking "I buy things but still am not happy" is a good premise for an entire generation of novelists WHy limit it to just the one?
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Jun 6, 2018 18:14
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Squashing Machine posted:One Hundred Years of Solitude goes out the window then, it's just more patrilineal family drama. Love in the Time of Cholera is will-they-won't-they garbage that amounts to a hill of beans. Crime and Punishment is just a NBC late night procedural. Theme doesnt equal premise. Also get Garcia Marquezs name out of your mouth when you come at me with this tepid poo poo
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Jun 6, 2018 18:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Part of me wants to agree, but was anything as tepid as the flood of post-9/11 fiction I think it took a few years for it to work its magic. It wasn't just the event, it was the multiple endless foreign wars, constant paranoia, and ever growing surveillance state that really added to it. Toss in the death of the post cold war dream of peace and you got some good books.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:18
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I think it took a few years for it to work its magic. It wasn't just the event, it was the multiple endless foreign wars, constant paranoia, and ever growing surveillance state that really added to it. Toss in the death of the post cold war dream of peace and you got some good books. I d posit the 2008 crash instead, for waking up white people to the possibility that they could become poor and/or had things in common with the browner folks.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:26
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Theme doesnt equal premise. Come on, we all have our sacred cows man, I love Marquez but he's not Yahweh. I love David Foster Wallace and I didn't throw a hissy fit when people came in on him. The central theme that I hear coming through (with an assist from HA) is that characters who are privileged don't really have much of interest or value to think about. There's no common human connection in knowing we're all grappling with uncertainty, or fear, or sadness, if you have privilege anything you feel that is less than absolute gratefulness and guilt for your position isn't worth spending time on. Do books need to be written so they're not insulting to the world's most abject person?
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Jun 6, 2018 18:29
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Eat the rich
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Jun 6, 2018 18:30
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Squashing Machine posted:The central theme that I hear coming through (with an assist from HA) is that characters who are privileged don't really have much of interest or value to think about. unironically yes
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Jun 6, 2018 18:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:unironically yes Well, good luck with that then, and good luck with your readership. Truly the most open-minded among us have prevailed
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Jun 6, 2018 18:35
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Squashing Machine posted:Come on, we all have our sacred cows man, I love Marquez but he's not Yahweh. I love David Foster Wallace and I didn't throw a hissy fit when people came in on him. They need to be written so they're not unspeakably dull
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Jun 6, 2018 18:36
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Why 30 new posts of haranguing about a genre that hasn't been en vogue in decades as if it's still* an omnipresent literary kudzu choking all else out? *not that it ever actually was, even at its height
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Jun 6, 2018 18:36
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Complaining about the prevalence of Sad White Man books two years after Jonathan Safran Foer's big one went over like a lead balloon and three years after nobody gave a poo poo about Franzen's last opus is absurdity.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:38
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Why 30 new posts of haranguing about a genre that hasn't been en vogue in decades as if it's still* an omnipresent literary kudzu choking all else out? What literature of the late 20th century in America was more in vogue than sad middle class white men. I mean, every lion of the era was a sad middle class white dude writing about sad middle class white dude poo poo. Sham bam bamina! posted:Complaining about the prevalence of Sad White Man books two years after Jonathan Safran Foer's big one went over like a lead balloon is absurdity. Meanwhile Dave Eggars continues to laugh his way to the bank
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Jun 6, 2018 18:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What literature of the late 20th century in America was more in vogue than sad middle class white men.
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Jun 6, 2018 18:40
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Jonathan Safran Foer spoke at my college graduation. He talked about his visit to Japan a lot. It sucked rear end
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Jun 6, 2018 18:41
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