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NEED MORE MILK posted:I guess the last question is, "Is this something I can do?" It's a little bigger than average home maintenance but the plan looks good. As long as it's inspected you should be covered as far as home insurance or selling the house goes. If you only wanted to do part of it, you could run the grounding wires to where the panel will be or plan on hooking circuit breakers up after the service is installed. I hate doing part of a job unless I can inspect what the homeowner did (though I do love someone else doing the grunt work).
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Jun 7, 2018 19:12
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Also, looks like I should bond the hot water outlet to the cold water inlet on the water heater, and also the metal gas line to ground. Does this sound right?Blackbeer posted:It's a little bigger than average home maintenance but the plan looks good. As long as it's inspected you should be covered as far as home insurance or selling the house goes. If you only wanted to do part of it, you could run the grounding wires to where the panel will be or plan on hooking circuit breakers up after the service is installed. I hate doing part of a job unless I can inspect what the homeowner did (though I do love someone else doing the grunt work). Thanks man, you're awesome.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:12
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NEED MORE MILK posted:Also, looks like I should bond the hot water outlet to the cold water inlet on the water heater, and also the metal gas line to ground. Does this sound right? No on both. The important part of bonding to a water line is the metal line that goes under the ground. The rest of the house could be in pex and it'd be fine. You don't want to clear ground faults/lightning through your gas lines. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 19:13
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Blackbeer posted:No on both. The important part of bonding to a water line is the metal line that goes under the ground. The rest of the house could be in pex and it'd be fine. You don't want to clear ground faults/lightning through your gas lines. That makes sense, I guess I'm just misunderstanding 250.104(B) with regards to gas lines.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:18
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My understanding on electrical work is that as a homeowner you're free to do anything you like to your home, it just has to pass inspection. If you were doing it to anyone else's property then you'd need to be a licensed electrician though.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:59
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NEED MORE MILK posted:That makes sense, I guess I'm just misunderstanding 250.104(B) with regards to gas lines. This def might differ based on local authority, but here "likely to become energized" (at least in a single-family dwelling) means the circuit that is associated with the gas appliance, so the (1) subnote of that section covers that with the ground in the outlet. One would never want to use gas lines as a grounding electrode (not that you were saying that).
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Jun 7, 2018 22:34
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NEED MORE MILK posted:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with this but I'm going to recommend the same that I recommend to consumers in the field that I do site visits on - install a combination meter base/main panel outside instead of just a meter socket. That does three really important things for you. It keeps utility level fault current potential out of your structure, because of the 200A main breaker you'll have outside. It gives you an emergency shutoff outside (besides pulling the meter). Last it gives you the option of running outdoor circuits, even if it's just a GFCI on that side of the house, but potentially maybe you've got a shed or who knows what that you'd like to run power to, and now you can. This does mean that your first disconnecting means is now this outside box, so you'll need one more conductor to your inside breaker box, and the grounds and neutrals will be separated inside. To your question of "can I do it myself", I think so but realize that you won't have power in the house from the time you request utility disconnect until you get it inspected and reconnected from the POCO. An electrician would (should) have everything lined up to get it done in one day, and that's what you're paying for besides it being done right and to code.
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Jun 7, 2018 23:07
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angryrobots posted:There's absolutely nothing with this but I'm going to recommend the same that I recommend to consumers in the field that I do site visits on - install a combination meter base/main panel outside instead of just a meter socket. I forgot how spoiled I am here. All new/upgraded single family/duplex services here (with a meter pole) get a meter kit that has a breaker and bus bars. Haven't had to pull a meter in years, and it makes it easy to add services to outbuildings or fused disconnects on the pole. It's part of the meter kit, not the service, so one can still feed all 240 panels w/ three wires. Good call on the logistics. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 00:16
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angryrobots posted:There's absolutely nothing wrong with this but I'm going to recommend the same that I recommend to consumers in the field that I do site visits on - install a combination meter base/main panel outside instead of just a meter socket. So wait are you saying to have the entire panel outside? Wouldn't it suck to have to run outside and flip a tripped breaker when it's like 10 and snowing? And can I not have an accessory structure using a breaker on the main panel inside? I currently have a garage separate two car garage that's on a 120v 20A circuit. Basically just some lights, a couple of outlets, and garage door openers. I do want to upgrade the garage at some point, maybe with like a 60A subpanel with 240v to run my big compressor and maybe a ductless AC or something along those lines. I just assumed later on I could run another buried line in PVC from the main panel in the house to the garage.
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Jun 8, 2018 00:20
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NEED MORE MILK posted:So wait are you saying to have the entire panel outside? Wouldn't it suck to have to run outside and flip a tripped breaker when it's like 10 and snowing? Not the entire panel, though I've seen that in states with nice weather, just a main panel (with your panel in the house becoming a sub-panel). Your existing setup is fine and you can sub-feed from the main panel in the house like that, but with an outdoor main panel or the meter kit I mentioned you could go from the pole to the garage.
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Jun 8, 2018 00:24
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Hey all! If you remember me, I was the guy who could not get the electrical working in his garage even after an electrician could not figure out what was wrong. You guys helped me determine it had to be something in the wall/ceiling and sure enough there was a junction box covered in the ceiling. Thanks again so much for the help with that. Now I have a bit of a different issue. Nothing is wrong, so to speak, but I can't figure out how to accomplish what I want. I have a room in the house that has a ceiling fan and ceiling lights all on one on/off switch. This is annoying us to death because at night if we want to just relax and watch some TV with the lights off, we can't, because the ceiling fan can only be on if the lights are on, all because the high hats AND the fan are all wired to this one on/off switch. Running new wire from the switch to the fan isn't really feasible, so is there anything I can do? One idea I had was this: https://www.amazon.com/Harbor-Breeze-Ceiling-Control-Universal/dp/B00S2S89TQ Could I just buy that to accomplish what I want? It's kind of stupid I have to do this at all because the fan itself already comes with a remote, but I am unsure of what else I can do. The issue I have though is this: if I do buy this thing from Amazon, will it even accomplish what I want? Obviously the person who set this room up wired the fan to be tapped off of the lights. Doesn't that mean that if the wall switch is off, this box from Amazon is still not going to receive power, because power won't be "sent" up to the lights/fan (the box gets installed at the fan)? I am a bit of a dullard so I apologize if any of this sounds incredibly stupid.
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Jun 8, 2018 00:57
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Blackbeer posted:Not the entire panel, though I've seen that in states with nice weather, just a main panel (with your panel in the house becoming a sub-panel). Your existing setup is fine and you can sub-feed from the main panel in the house like that, but with an outdoor main panel or the meter kit I mentioned you could go from the pole to the garage. The downside to that is it’s actually a lot further from the pole to the garage than from the indoor panel to the garage.
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Jun 8, 2018 01:03
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When my old rear end house got upgraded, the new 200A service went outside with a 200A main disconnect and 60A breakers for each of the AC, the water heater, and the feed to the existing fusebox. I reccomend this because it keeps the meter pull downtime to a minimum and then you're free to replace the existing panel at your leisure without having to involve the utility or sacrifice climate control and showers while doing it.
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Jun 8, 2018 01:05
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Blackbeer posted:I forgot how spoiled I am here. All new/upgraded single family/duplex services here (with a meter pole) get a meter kit that has a breaker and bus bars. Haven't had to pull a meter in years, and it makes it easy to add services to outbuildings or fused disconnects on the pole. It's part of the meter kit, not the service, so one can still feed all 240 panels w/ three wires. could you give me an example of a meter box that has the breaker/bus bar? And if I do that, I can't have a bonded ground/neutral in the panel inside of the house, I have to have four conductors in the conduit running to the interior panel?
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Jun 8, 2018 02:13
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NEED MORE MILK posted:could you give me an example of a meter box that has the breaker/bus bar? And if I do that, I can't have a bonded ground/neutral in the panel inside of the house, I have to have four conductors in the conduit running to the interior panel? I can take a pic of what my utility provides, but you'll have to check with yours (which you need to do anyway when filing the wiring certificate in case they need to upgrade their loop). If a disconnect is in their equipment, it's part of the meter assembly and regular 3-wire rules apply and your panel in the house will be a service disconnect/main panel with a bonded neutral and ground. If you add an outdoor panel (that comes after the meter and is your responsibility) your panel inside will (by code) change into a sub-panel requiring a 4-wire feed (because you have to have grd/neu bonded in your service disconnect, and nowhere else after).
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Jun 8, 2018 02:54
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NEED MORE MILK posted:could you give me an example of a meter box that has the breaker/bus bar? I like this Square D panel personally, but there are a variety of options at lower price points as well. Apparently they officially call these a "combination service unit device" or CSED but I've always just heard "combination unit". You shouldn't ever have to worry about going outside for a tripped breaker in the snow, because for now the only breaker outside will be a big 200A main and if it trips it has a good reason and you want it to trip! Your individual circuit breakers in your panel inside will still function like you're used to.
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Jun 8, 2018 03:33
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Uncle at Nintendo posted:Doesn't that mean that if the wall switch is off, this box from Amazon is still not going to receive power, because power won't be "sent" up to the lights/fan (the box gets installed at the fan)? From the way you've described it, yeah it sounds like it. Unless power from the switch goes to the fan first, I don't think one of those remote kits will work. But if the fan is original and the recessed lights were added later...They probably tied them to the ceiling fan box and your solution may work, just not exactly how the manufacturer intended (you'd have to ensure you didn't overload the switch device, ie make sure the lights total are within it's wattage rating).
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Jun 8, 2018 03:44
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Leave the fan like it is, put the lights on a radio controlled relay and hardwire the wall switch out of the circuit entirely. Foam tape the new remote for the lights to the cover where the switch used to be. Boom, done, only need to run 3 or 4 inches of new wire. Hell you could even do it with a The Clapper shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 03:59
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shame on an IGA posted:Leave the fan like it is, put the lights on a radio controlled relay and hardwire the wall switch out of the circuit entirely. Foam tape the new remote for the lights to the cover where the switch used to be. Boom, done, only need to run 3 or 4 inches of new wire. I actually just bought a Lutron Casetta dimmer to replace this switch. It can be controlled by a remote and/or Alexa. But I have to be honest I am not following what you are saying (I have reading comprehension problems). I am not sure how to separate the lights from the fan when there is only one wire going down into the switch. Are you saying I should kind of just put the Casetta dimmer somewhere in the ceiling where the fan is, between the fan and the lights? When I got the dimmer is when it reminded me of why I never put a dimmer here in the first place (dimmer+fan=bad). And it reminded me of how annoying it is that I can't use the fan with the lights off. So me solving this issue would give me two benefits (being able to dim the lights and also being able to have the lights off and the fan on). angryrobots posted:From the way you've described it, yeah it sounds like it. Unless power from the switch goes to the fan first, I don't think one of those remote kits will work. But if the fan is original and the recessed lights were added later...They probably tied them to the ceiling fan box and your solution may work, just not exactly how the manufacturer intended (you'd have to ensure you didn't overload the switch device, ie make sure the lights total are within it's wattage rating). Thanks for the reply. Both are actually all new. It's a completely new room and I just didn't think to tell the person to put them on separate switches (I thought that would be obvious). The fan having a remote threw me off a bit first until I realized after a few months that we have no way of using the fan with the lights off. Is the fact that this is all new work (fan and lights were installed at the same time) a good thing for my situation? Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 04:25
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Ahhh it's my mistake I thought there was only one light fixture. The simplest solution is going to be to run a new hot wire directly from the switch box to the fan.
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Jun 8, 2018 04:46
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shame on an IGA posted:Ahhh it's my mistake I thought there was only one light fixture. The simplest solution is going to be to run a new hot wire directly from the switch box to the fan. Well, the lights are all tied in together, so wouldn't that kind of be one fixture? I can't turn them off individually or anything.
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Jun 8, 2018 04:55
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Ok, pictures. (Assuming worst case scenario of fan being at the end of the string) this is what you have:  This is the relatively easy fix of rewiring the fan:  This is the alternative of adding a remote switch or dimmer to each light fixture.  if you're lucky and the wires go from the switch to the fan first, it still makes sense. 
shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 05:38
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Or alternatively, just wire in a 3rd party remote to the fan. They go up in the canopy, come with their own remote, and control lights + fan separately. The very cheapest ones only toggle lights and fan on/off (separately). The next option gives you 3 fan speeds and dimmable lights (so long as you're using incandescent or LED). You just leave the wall switch turned on 24/7. I wired one of these in at my parents house in my old bedroom (which has a nice, but ~18 year old, Hunter 52" fan w/lighting kit), tossed dimmable LEDs in, and mounted the remote on the wall. Parents now have easy control of lights + fan in my old bedroom/their "workout room", instead of *gasp* reaching up for a chain like a heathen. I don't know how well this will work with your existing fan remote; if the existing receiver is up in the ceiling or canopy, it's easy enough to wire around it. If it's built into the fan itself, you may want to contact the fan maker.
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Jun 8, 2018 12:05
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Uncle at Nintendo posted:Is the fact that this is all new work (fan and lights were installed at the same time) a good thing for my situation? It really just depends on how they wired it. If this was done recently and you know the electrician, call them and tell them what you want? STR posted:Or alternatively, just wire in a 3rd party remote to the fan. They go up in the canopy, come with their own remote, and control lights + fan separately. That's what he was looking at, the problem is (as i understand it), there are other recessed lights in the room on the an same switch that he wants OFF while the fan is ON. I think some of the "smart" light bulbs have been discussed ITT. Those may be an option to solve this problem also, but I'm not familiar with them at all.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:25
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angryrobots posted:There's absolutely nothing wrong with this but I'm going to recommend the same that I recommend to consumers in the field that I do site visits on - install a combination meter base/main panel outside instead of just a meter socket. So for reference, this is what I'm trying to do in terms of where everything will be located. Everything is to scale so hopefully it's nice and clear.  Basically the old panel location is not ideal because it's in the basement right where we were planning on finishing and putting up some cabinetry/bookshelves/whatever and I know I can't cover up a panel. So I figured if I'm gonna do a service upgrade, might as well move it to the utility area.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:02
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angryrobots posted:That's what he was looking at, the problem is (as i understand it), there are other recessed lights in the room on the an same switch that he wants OFF while the fan is ON. Oh, derp. That's what I get for skimming.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:14
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shame on an IGA posted:Ok, pictures. (Assuming worst case scenario of fan being at the end of the string) Thanks so much for this. Unless someone in this thread sees something wrong with this, I am going to give it a shot on Sunday
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Jun 8, 2018 23:39
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NEED MORE MILK posted:So for reference, this is what I'm trying to do in terms of where everything will be located. Everything is to scale so hopefully it's nice and clear. So you realize that all your circuits will have to be run to the new proposed sub panel location? Is the basement unfinished or do you have other ideas about making that happen? Again, not saying you can't do this yourself but it does increase the scope of this project.
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Jun 9, 2018 00:11
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angryrobots posted:So you realize that all your circuits will have to be run to the new proposed sub panel location? Is the basement unfinished or do you have other ideas about making that happen? Again, not saying you can't do this yourself but it does increase the scope of this project. Yeah unfinished basement and most of the existing runs are coming from that side of the house anyways to get to the panel. That was a big hold up for me with relocating the panel but when I demoed the basement I realized it really wasn’t much of an issue. In addition some of the wire is pretty old. It’s NM and has a ground but it’s an older jacket for sure. https://imgur.com/a/cNtcYJ6 So I’m probably going to be replacing a fair amount of this as well 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jun 9, 2018 |
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Jun 9, 2018 01:50
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Alright, long as you're prepared for that. Any junctions you make have to be permanently accessible. I mention that because you're finishing the basement. Just something to plan for.
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Jun 9, 2018 03:14
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angryrobots posted:Alright, long as you're prepared for that. Any junctions you make have to be permanently accessible. I mention that because you're finishing the basement. Just something to plan for. Pssssst..... https://www.homedepot.com/p/Tyco-Electronics-Romex-Splice-Kit-3-Wire-1-Clam-CPGI-208169-2/202204327 These are gold for that kind of reno.
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Jun 10, 2018 16:24
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I find so many bad connections at work that I have trust issues with hiding that in a wall. I know they're allowed but I can't say I'd use them personally unless it was really the only option. 
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Jun 10, 2018 17:12
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Motronic posted:Pssssst..... Weird. Anyways, there's a few outlets that have to be rewired so they can reach the new panel location, but otherwise everything should actually be a shorter run now.
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Jun 11, 2018 14:04
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Hi thread I have another industrial electricity question I could use some input on. I am going to have a long talk with our electrician soon and I want some idea of what I should be looking for. We are getting a laser cutter in a few weeks. It requires 200-240v/40-50 amps, and the chiller for the machine requires 480v/22amps. Our service in the building is 208v. We'd like to step up the 208 to something like 230, and we obviously need to step up the other one to 480v. Is this just a matter of needing a couple transformers? What kind of kva would I need? Any input is appreciated.
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Jun 12, 2018 00:59
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A Proper Uppercut posted:Hi thread I have another industrial electricity question I could use some input on. I am going to have a long talk with our electrician soon and I want some idea of what I should be looking for. Why would you step up 208v if it's in range of your system?
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Jun 12, 2018 01:32
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H110Hawk posted:Why would you step up 208v if it's in range of your system? To lower the amperage and we occasionally get down to around 198 if it's really hot out and everyone in town is using their AC
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Jun 12, 2018 01:43
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You should talk to your utility about your voltage issues. The onus is on them to provide the right voltage. Either your existing service is way too small already, or they need voltage regulation on their end.
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Jun 12, 2018 01:57
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angryrobots posted:You should talk to your utility about your voltage issues. The onus is on them to provide the right voltage. Either your existing service is way too small already, or they need voltage regulation on their end. We've already been down that road, it's not going to get any better. It used to be a lot worse before we upgraded our service. Assuming that the service is what it is, and 95% of the time it's fine, would i be looking at a couple transformers?
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Jun 12, 2018 02:37
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198v is right on the edge of -5%, so technically within allowable tolerance. lovely IMO, but allowable. We'd hook you up. =/ Your equipment is, or should be built to handle down to about 181v based on the nameplate voltage. I know that sometimes these computer controlled tables are particular. Though anecdotally... I've heard it's best to be a little low than high. The person to answer this question is Three-Phase, but my gut feeling is that going from 3 phase 120/208 wye to three phase 240 which is a Delta configuration is going to be a lot of possibly unnecessary cost, on top of also needing 480v for the chiller. Also this equipment is adding another ~23kva... You said your service was "upgraded" already but you're sure it can handle this additional load?
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Jun 12, 2018 05:36
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angryrobots posted:198v is right on the edge of -5%, so technically within allowable tolerance. lovely IMO, but allowable. We'd hook you up. =/ Yea, we upgraded to an 800 amp service a while ago. New wires run to the building. We've got around 20 machines pulling around 500 amps total so we're good there. And you may be right about bumping that up to 230 not bring worth it. It's just something we're throwing around.
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Jun 12, 2018 10:12
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