NYTimes: An infanticide that no one can see is also going to attract suspicion.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > NYTimes: An infanticide that no one can see is also going to attract suspicion.

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Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Nobody is talking about impeachment, though. The specific constitutional crisis being discussed is an attempt by the Vice President and cabinet to use the 25th amendment to declare the president unable to fulfill his duties while the president is still capable of denying his incapacity and also firing his cabinet, potentially creating a situation where we have two active and hostile acting presidents making opposing declarations of dubious legality to both Congress and the courts.

The 25th amendment is really badly designed and leads to multiple potential deadlocks, in practice.

that's not a constitutional crisis unless the military tells the cabinet to gently caress off and launches a coup in favor of the president

"incapacity", much like the "high crimes and misdemeanors" used in presidential impeachment, means whatever the gently caress the relevant decision-makers decide it means

# ? Sep 7, 2018 03:16

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 18:42

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Nobody is talking about impeachment, though. The specific constitutional crisis being discussed is an attempt by the Vice President and cabinet to use the 25th amendment to declare the president unable to fulfill his duties while the president is still capable of denying his incapacity and also firing his cabinet, potentially creating a situation where we have two active and hostile acting presidents making opposing declarations of dubious legality to both Congress and the courts.

The 25th amendment is really badly designed and leads to multiple potential deadlocks, in practice.

the text of the 25th amendment is extremely clear to me about the process with no deadlocks and no constitutional crisis whatsoever if all of the trump cabinet members and appointees declare to the senate they want mike pence to be president tomorrow

give me the hypothetical deadlock that is not resolved by the text

quote:

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[3]

# ? Sep 7, 2018 03:40

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Zas posted:

keep in mind, with the 25th you need the full cab, AND 2/3rds of the house AND senate if you don't have the prez's consent

so its basically worthless for a hostile removal, compared to impeachment + 2/3rds of senate

it's almost like there is no constitutional crisis whatsoever and liberals don't have basic reading comprehension

# ? Sep 7, 2018 03:40

Shear Modulus: Jun 9, 2010

yeah the text pretty clearly says that mike pence gets to be president for a maximum of like 20something days unless 2/3 of both houses congress decide to make mike pence president, which happens to be a higher threshold than just impeaching trump and making mike pence president that way

# ? Sep 7, 2018 03:58

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

if mike pence attempts a coup through the 25th amendment and he is stupid enough not to have gotten agreement from 2/3 of both houses of congress, this means that congress immediately removes him as president, trump becomes president again, congress impeaches mike pence and anyone involved in the coup attempt, trump replaces his cabinet, and the rules for resolving vice president come into play

if mike pence attempts a coup and has support of 2/3 of both houses of congress, then he becomes president

a military intervention by trump or pence upon invocation of the 25th amendment would be a constitutional crisis, but that's always going to be a constitutional crisis and isn't what liberals are handwringing about afaik

# ? Sep 7, 2018 04:05

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

Shear Modulus posted:

the garland nomination could have evolved into a constitutional crisis if obama had had balls and declared that by refusing to even hold hearings, the senate had waived its right to advise and consent and therefore garland was now a justice, with the accepted practice of recess appointments as precedent. however causing an actual constitutional crisis and upending the safe heretofore safe assumption that the republicans get what they want 100% of the time is exactly how you get disinvited to richard branson's whore island and six-figure wall street speeches

obama was a pussy

# ? Sep 7, 2018 04:33

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Nobody is talking about impeachment, though. The specific constitutional crisis being discussed is an attempt by the Vice President and cabinet to use the 25th amendment to declare the president unable to fulfill his duties while the president is still capable of denying his incapacity and also firing his cabinet, potentially creating a situation where we have two active and hostile acting presidents making opposing declarations of dubious legality to both Congress and the courts.

The 25th amendment is really badly designed and leads to multiple potential deadlocks, in practice.

e: beaten badly

The definition of a constitutional crisis is any problem in government that can't be solved with existing procedures. Canada has had at least 2 in the past 30 years

e2: The 25th amendment was designed to make sure presidential powers are delegated properly in case of illness, or, more realistically, nuclear war. The question of if X president can or cannot discharge those duties is assumed to be open and shut (IE Washington was vaporized, the president was there). Like the electoral college (which is supposed to guard against con men, dumb-dumbs or people connected to the state's enemies from becoming president) the way to remove somebody from the presidency is supposed to be impeachment. While Nixon very likely would have been impeached, he's the only one in history who wouldn't have beat that process, Johnson (Lincoln's VP) had a total nervous breakdown and he still beat it, I forget if they ever tried to impeach that president (Taylor I think) who was so off the map that his Cabinet came into his office to all quit together, but he served out his term, too, vetoing everything that crossed his desk

Nebakenezzer has issued a correction as of 04:50 on Sep 7, 2018

# ? Sep 7, 2018 04:34

Sing Along: Feb 28, 2017; by Athanatos

hosed up but i feel like this is a net positive for tampe

# ? Sep 7, 2018 04:41

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Trump is going to publicly execute whoever wrote that article. He will crucify them on the roof of the white house.

# ? Sep 7, 2018 04:54

H.P. Hovercraft: Jan 12, 2004; one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse; Slippery Tilde

i hope it�s pence

# ? Sep 7, 2018 04:59

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

Nebakenezzer posted:

The definition of a constitutional crisis is any problem in government that can't be solved with existing procedures. Canada has had at least 2 in the past 30 years

Did the administration say today they were going to just straight-up ignore a court order about immigrant kids? Constitutional crisis, right?

# ? Sep 7, 2018 05:08

fabergay egg: Mar 1, 2012; it's not a rhetorical question, for politely saying 'you are an idiot, you don't know what you are talking about'

Ytlaya posted:

Trump is going to publicly execute whoever wrote that article. He will crucify them on the roof of the white house.

his poll numvers will rise when he does this, and by gawd, i hope he does

# ? Sep 7, 2018 05:25

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Nobody is talking about impeachment, though. The specific constitutional crisis being discussed is an attempt by the Vice President and cabinet to use the 25th amendment to declare the president unable to fulfill his duties while the president is still capable of denying his incapacity and also firing his cabinet, potentially creating a situation where we have two active and hostile acting presidents making opposing declarations of dubious legality to both Congress and the courts.

The 25th amendment is really badly designed and leads to multiple potential deadlocks, in practice.

it's not just the 25th amendment, the whole constitution is a complete piece of poo poo

# ? Sep 7, 2018 06:07

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Ytlaya posted:

Trump is going to publicly execute whoever wrote that article. He will crucify them on the roof of the white house.

Cover them in pitch, set them alight and throw them down the Grand Canyon

# ? Sep 7, 2018 06:47

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

i hope it�s pence

# ? Sep 7, 2018 07:18

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

I'm only half-joking about Trump ordering the execution of the writer if he discovers who it is. He seems really angry.

# ? Sep 7, 2018 07:19

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Can VPs be fired?

# ? Sep 7, 2018 07:21

really queer Christmas: Apr 22, 2014

they can be impeached like a president can, and they can resign. the president cant just fire them, but he could tell the vp to go hang around on diplomatic missions to somalia for the rest of the term

# ? Sep 7, 2018 08:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/PatBlanchfield/status/1037481521358295048

# ? Sep 7, 2018 11:07

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

comedyblissoption posted:

if mike pence attempts a coup through the 25th amendment and he is stupid enough not to have gotten agreement from 2/3 of both houses of congress, this means that congress immediately removes him as president, trump becomes president again, congress impeaches mike pence and anyone involved in the coup attempt, trump replaces his cabinet, and the rules for resolving vice president come into play

if mike pence attempts a coup and has support of 2/3 of both houses of congress, then he becomes president

a military intervention by trump or pence upon invocation of the 25th amendment would be a constitutional crisis, but that's always going to be a constitutional crisis and isn't what liberals are handwringing about afaik

Thing is Dems wouldn't vote to remove Pence in that situation, impeaching him would fail, and he's stay as a lame duck veep until the 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2018 11:53

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

PostNouveau posted:

Did the administration say today they were going to just straight-up ignore a court order about immigrant kids? Constitutional crisis, right?

I think in this case the other two government branches are supposed to tackle the executive

# ? Sep 7, 2018 12:46

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Nebakenezzer posted:

I think in this case the other two government branches are supposed to tackle the executive

*looks at composition of the other two branches* :hmmyes:

# ? Sep 7, 2018 12:54

BBJoey: Oct 31, 2012

It�s almost like the supposed checks and balances in democratic systems are paper tigers that do nothing if the government has a will to ignore them

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:04

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

Phone posted:

it's not just the 25th amendment, the whole constitution is a complete piece of poo poo

its funny how many problems in american politics revolve around wrestling with a poo poo tier constitution that barely makes any loving sense because the founders were a bunch of cowardly, elitist bitches

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:11

BBJoey: Oct 31, 2012

yeah a lot of other countries have great constitutions (?) that were written by political elites who were good and cool (???)

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:27

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

if you don't have a constitution you can't have a constitutional crisis

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:45

OXBALLS DOT COM: Sep 11, 2005; by FactsAreUseless; Young Orc

Jose posted:

if you don't have a constitution you can't have a constitutional crisis

Your Britishness is showing, Jose

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:47

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

Jose posted:

if you don't have a constitution you can't have a constitutional crisis

Ah but you do have a dictatorship

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:48

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

https://mobile.twitter.com/nyt_diff/status/1038043873115873281

i just love seeing which direction the NYT edits go (its always this direction)

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:50

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1038048303647260673

# ? Sep 7, 2018 13:58

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

BBJoey posted:

yeah a lot of other countries have great constitutions (?) that were written by political elites who were good and cool (???)

you may be surprised to find not every other consitution is as dumb and worthless as the us one. for one other countries have changed them a bunch instead of trying to interpret some 200 year old horseshit

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:06

OXBALLS DOT COM: Sep 11, 2005; by FactsAreUseless; Young Orc

babypolis posted:

you may be surprised to find not every other consitution is as dumb and worthless as the us one. for one other countries have changed them a bunch instead of trying to interpret some 200 year old horseshit

Lol ok

This guy definitely knows what hes talking about. I can just tell

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:10

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

The Soviet Union, for example, had three Constitutions - from 1924, 1936, and 1977 (and four if the count the RSFSR in 1918).

My own native country has had as many as six iterations of its Constitution.

That said, it's also true that the Constitution don't mean poo poo if the government is co-opted enough to the point where it both isn't followed and that behavior isn't punished by the masses.

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:17

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

OXBALLS DOT COM posted:

Lol ok

This guy definitely knows what hes talking about. I can just tell

lmao i didnt know saying the us constitution is total garbage is such a controversial opinion

gradenko_2000 posted:

The Soviet Union, for example, had three Constitutions - from 1924, 1936, and 1977 (and four if the count the RSFSR in 1918).

My own native country has had as many as six iterations of its Constitution.

That said, it's also true that the Constitution don't mean poo poo if the government is co-opted enough to the point where it both isn't followed and that behavior isn't punished by the masses.

well yeah. most other countries dont place such a high value on them either. in the us it takes the place of a religious text basically

in a way the us sees modern democratic society as being derived from and dependent on the constitution, while other countries see it more as a reflection of the current society

babypolis has issued a correction as of 14:24 on Sep 7, 2018

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:22

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

jsut don't have a constitution

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:26

UrbicaMortis: Feb 16, 2012; Hmm, how shall I post today?

Jose posted:

jsut don't have a constitution

I'm curious actually whether it's more or less common for a country to have a written constitution.

I'd assume a constitution is more common at this point.

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:33

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

UrbicaMortis posted:

I'm curious actually whether it's more or less common for a country to have a written constitution.

I'd assume a constitution is more common at this point.

i think basically every post colonial country has one because the us did and everyone copied the us

in europe i imagine its mostly the monarch countries that dont have one

no idea how common it is in asia. us occupied countries like south korea and japan do but dunno about the rest

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:36

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

UrbicaMortis posted:

I'm curious actually whether it's more or less common for a country to have a written constitution.

I'd assume a constitution is more common at this point.

it's pretty common in modern democracies, who need some kind of essential legal document that lays down the basic framework of the system that passes laws

even in countries that don't have a Constitution, there's some equivalent. like Israel has their "Basic Law" which fills essentially the same purpose as a constitution

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:41

Chillgamesh: Jul 29, 2014

UrbicaMortis posted:

I'm curious actually whether it's more or less common for a country to have a written constitution.

I'd assume a constitution is more common at this point.

CON can't drop below 1 or your country will TRUKP.

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:49

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 18:42

the bitcoin of weed: Nov 1, 2014

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1037880524516282370?s=19

well, this rules out..... nobody?

# ? Sep 7, 2018 14:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > NYTimes: An infanticide that no one can see is also going to attract suspicion.

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