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Just imagine a John Galt speech written by Wildbow.
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Oct 1, 2018 05:42
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New Practical guide is interesting. Cat is so powerful that she doesn't seem to make any distinctions in how she treats named vs regular people, so it's always good to get other viewpoints. Also I don't get where theif's insecurities come from. She stole the sun! That's as cool of a tale as there is.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:16
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Should I be reading these tGaB interludes? The one where Tellwyrn turns out to be a time lord was bad enough I just gave up on them, but there's been like a billion of them since Trissiny had her last bollocking.
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Oct 1, 2018 21:32
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Autonomous Monster posted:Should I be reading these tGaB interludes? The one where Tellwyrn turns out to be a time lord was bad enough I just gave up on them, but there's been like a billion of them since Trissiny had her last bollocking. Continues the trend of the stuff further away from the technobabble being better.
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Oct 2, 2018 02:26
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SerCypher posted:New Practical guide is interesting. Cat is so powerful that she doesn't seem to make any distinctions in how she treats named vs regular people, so it's always good to get other viewpoints. Prac Guide: She is feeling left behind. Whereas the other members of the Woe had all contributed to Cat during the book with their power, she routinely hosed up (with both the Pilgrim and the Empress). Given how she treated the meeting with Juniper as another loss, I'd guess that Cat tended to do what Juniper advised and this was just another failure on top of a pile. Like, she doesn't feel her contributions in the middle matter (for instance stealing the moonlight blade that would have probably hosed Cat up), because she feels that her failures at the end matter more. Hakram usually spots that minda stuff and either warns Cat or takes care of it himself, but...
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Oct 2, 2018 15:45
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Cat herself mentioned needing to train Thief to be better in combat at some point, since right now she's pretty much sub-Cat as early Squire in her ability. edit: It's also worth mentioning that, IIRC, Assassin considered taking (or asked to take?) Thief as an apprentice. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 18:23
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Ytlaya posted:edit: It's also worth mentioning that, IIRC, Assassin considered taking (or asked to take?) Thief as an apprentice. Huh, really? I can't remember that, though it's been quite a while... I wouldn't have expected that to look too appealing, she's always struck me as more of a mischievous rogue archetype; giving her a killer instinct and any real lethality seems like it would massively diminish the uniqueness she brings to the Woe, in favor of buffing up a competency they already have plenty of.
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Oct 3, 2018 14:07
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I'm still kind of upset ratface died offscreen and I'm not sure there was a narrative reason for it, not being a main enough character to even get a chapter, why even bother? Just feels like lovely treatment especially as we start to see how much he was holding stuff together.
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Oct 3, 2018 14:16
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Same. I've less attachment to Juniper than Ratface, frankly.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:56
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I think the intent of the author there was to show that the world is moving on in the months Cat is away and loads of poo poo is happening that she can't do anything about or even know about until way after the fact, but gently caress if that isn't really lovely for us to not get any closure on. 
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Oct 3, 2018 16:02
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Bhodi posted:I'm still kind of upset ratface died offscreen Or maybe they didn't~~
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Oct 3, 2018 19:05
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Yeah I'm just assuming he isn't actually dead.
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Oct 3, 2018 19:55
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Personally, I think that Captain will come back in some form after being killed off screen, but I believe that Ratface is well and truly dead
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Oct 3, 2018 20:02
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Catching up with Ward, and Tristan not resisting too much with passing over control to Byron when Victoria asked kinda adds some more evidence to the "Tristan has actually improved a lot" idea.Omi no Kami posted:Huh, really? I can't remember that, though it's been quite a while... I wouldn't have expected that to look too appealing, she's always struck me as more of a mischievous rogue archetype; giving her a killer instinct and any real lethality seems like it would massively diminish the uniqueness she brings to the Woe, in favor of buffing up a competency they already have plenty of. Ah, I misremembered; the scene is more ambiguous and is mostly Assassin sort of threatening her with an implied offer to join them. Either way, I definitely don't think she will (or should) go that route. Having a skill set that could make you into a good assassin doesn't mean her personality/character is well suited to it. Bhodi posted:I'm still kind of upset ratface died offscreen and I'm not sure there was a narrative reason for it, not being a main enough character to even get a chapter, why even bother? Just feels like lovely treatment especially as we start to see how much he was holding stuff together. I actually liked that; I thought it was a good way of showing that Cat's group isn't invulnerable and that they can absolutely die in ways that aren't heroic (especially if they're not Named, who don't have the same narrative importance by definition). It also helps show the danger Malicia can be to her. edit: I'm not sure why some of you think Ratface isn't dead; there's no reason to think the Empress would have failed to have the mentioned people killed (remember, it wasn't just him), and why would Ratface randomly be an exception? He doesn't have the "narrative significance" protection a Named does. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 20:29
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A character who died offscreen with zero ceremony turning out to actually be alive is such a cliche that it not happening would almost be a twist, and my default assumption when reading a story is that the character is alive until given a very good reason to think otherwise. PGtE hasn't done that yet. It's not that I'd be surprised if we got to the end of the story without him ever showing up again because yeah, he was dead the whole time; it's just that I also wouldn't be remotely surprised if he did show up again.
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Oct 3, 2018 23:34
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Ytlaya posted:Ah, I misremembered; the scene is more ambiguous and is mostly Assassin sort of threatening her with an implied offer to join them. Either way, I definitely don't think she will (or should) go that route. Having a skill set that could make you into a good assassin doesn't mean her personality/character is well suited to it. Huh, do you remember where-ish in the story it occurred? I'd love to reread that... the only time I can remember Assassin explicitly being on-screen (besides the implication that he gets a talking role while in disguise at least once per book) was that thing with Heiress.
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Oct 4, 2018 01:24
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In the last few paragraphs of this Extra Chapter about Thief's past. Which, by the way, anyone who's read the story should look at this list of "Extra Chapters", because I don't think they all get properly linked if you're just Next Chaptering through the story. Silynt fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 01:29
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Silynt posted:In the last few paragraphs of this Extra Chapter about Thief's past. Oh cool, thanks for the link! Hmm... I vaguely remember that interlude but I'm almost certain I missed some on that list, so binge-ish time. ^^ Speaking of Vivi, here's something I've never been clear on: Heroes and Villains each have very explicit narrative roles, and I vaguely remember that this is because Named are effectively agents of different factions that aren't allowed into Creation acting via proxy (I think?). They have some weird rules differentiating them- villains don't age, for instance, but heroes very explicitly do, and villains tend to be a lot more vulnerable to magical equipment failing at the right part of a story for ironic, horrible death to ensue. So how do the neutral parties like Ranger/Hunter/Archer/Thief fall into that paradigm? Did Vivi and Archer explicitly change how the rules work for them by jumping from Ranger/Swordsmantown to the grumpiest legion in the world?
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Oct 4, 2018 02:36
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Omi no Kami posted:Oh cool, thanks for the link! Hmm... I vaguely remember that interlude but I'm almost certain I missed some on that list, so binge-ish time. ^^ Now i'm curious if heroes need haircuts and villains don't, as her hair beginning to grow again is clearly signifying something.
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Oct 4, 2018 11:52
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Wolpertinger posted:Now i'm curious if heroes need haircuts and villains don't, as her hair beginning to grow again is clearly signifying something. They talk about self image being the determining factor for black and cat I think. Presumably all of her recent self doubt is causing some issues. I don’t remember the hero/villain aging thing other than black explicitly not aging because of the self perception thing again. Maybe I just missed it though.
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Oct 4, 2018 12:13
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I was unsure from the context of that chapter, is Vivi's hair growing new? When I read it I interpreted it as something that'd always happened, that she was choosing now to sweat over because of the self-doubt that their latest adventure stirred up. (That's obviously leading somewhere, because personal identity is a huge Name thing, but I hope it doesn't lead her in a dumb direction- they desperately need a stealthy Scribe-like sort way more than a fighter.) As for the aging, during the last arc with the Lone Swordsman Cat explicitly muses to herself that villains don't physically age (I think Black and Malicia are both supposed to be around 60-80 while looking like they're in their mid 20s?), but that hero roles very explicitly do. That's why she first took notice of the bard- the combination of being extremely old and a heroic role was explicitly weird.
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Oct 4, 2018 13:07
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builds character posted:They talk about self image being the determining factor for black and cat I think. Presumably all of her recent self doubt is causing some issues. I don’t remember the hero/villain aging thing other than black explicitly not aging because of the self perception thing again. Maybe I just missed it though. It's stated repeatedly that villains are functionally immortal as a sort of hosed up compensation for the fact that their days are narratively numbered. A villain who manages to hang on won't age, or if they do, won't die from it, while heroes definitely age at their normal rate and eventually die of natural causes if the narrative doesn't kill them first.
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Oct 4, 2018 13:07
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I wouldn't call it compensation so much as a thing to ensure that all villains are inevitably defeated. They have to stay forever at their prime so that when a hero does finally manage to beat them it's an actual victory and not finishing off the old bedridden cripple, or worse, the villain dying of old age before any hero does manage to beat them.
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Oct 4, 2018 16:14
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Plorkyeran posted:I wouldn't call it compensation so much as a thing to ensure that all villains are inevitably defeated. They have to stay forever at their prime so that when a hero does finally manage to beat them it's an actual victory and not finishing off the old bedridden cripple, or worse, the villain dying of old age before any hero does manage to beat them. That's a really interesting point. There is no catharsis to a story if evil doesn't get its due.
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Oct 4, 2018 18:30
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Plorkyeran posted:A character who died offscreen with zero ceremony turning out to actually be alive is such a cliche that it not happening would almost be a twist, and my default assumption when reading a story is that the character is alive until given a very good reason to think otherwise. PGtE hasn't done that yet. But didn't Cat find out through a letter from Juniper or something? Why would she lie about that, especially in a context where a number of other people were killed? I also want to say that it was mentioned that his throat was slit (or something otherwise specific about the nature of his death). I just can't think of any plausible way for his death to be "faked" in this situation, and there's no narrative reason for it to be faked either (since Cat is either considered a Villain or non-Named, and neither have any sort of protection for their companions, Named or otherwise*). I can understand if it were a situation where a character fell off a cliff and was presumed dead, but in this case Cat was just flat-out told by someone with no reason to lie (or be mislead) about it. * One thing that always sorta bugged me is how Cat was able to cheap shot the Exiled Prince. I would assume the narrative wouldn't normally allow a hero to die like that (unless it was as part of another hero's story, but I don't think that was the case either).
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Oct 4, 2018 19:44
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Ytlaya posted:* One thing that always sorta bugged me is how Cat was able to cheap shot the Exiled Prince. I would assume the narrative wouldn't normally allow a hero to die like that (unless it was as part of another hero's story, but I don't think that was the case either). Cat still had her third encounter with the Lone Swordsman and two encounters with Akua to go. (Guess who suggested to 1v1 Cat to the Exiled Prince?)
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Oct 4, 2018 20:58
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Ytlaya posted:* One thing that always sorta bugged me is how Cat was able to cheap shot the Exiled Prince. I would assume the narrative wouldn't normally allow a hero to die like that (unless it was as part of another hero's story, but I don't think that was the case either). This is just a guess, because I've never understood PracGuide's mythology that well, but isn't the idea that buffs/debuffs only apply to Named when they're actively participating in a story? I thought that was one reason why the Calamities did so well (and why the Bard is such a threat), because they were really careful about recognizing narrative patterns and actively not participating in them.
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Oct 5, 2018 00:17
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Wasn't the exiled prince not explicitly named? I recall it being more a title, than a mantle.
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Oct 5, 2018 02:47
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I think he was Named. The issue is that he was intruding on the Narrative being written, and its been established later that intruding on a narrative- or stepping outside of your own- removes narrative protections that Named have. It's the reason why heroes can die easier during a Crusade, because they've diverted from their written narrative to fight a villain that they're not supposed to. The Exiled Prince probably had a narrative to fight Black or Malicia, but that got sidestepped when he deliberately went up against Catherine, effectively sealing his own death warrant.
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Oct 5, 2018 05:33
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Well now, that was one hell of an ending to the update.
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Oct 5, 2018 05:47
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tithin posted:Well now, that was one hell of an ending to the update. Yes. It was actually one of the most tense updates I read in a while. Catherine murdering things is fun, but in the end I sort of know she's going to pull through somehow. This sort of thing could have gone any which way.
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Oct 5, 2018 06:52
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PracGuide: ”I would rather lose my hand than have you distrust me” is extremely hardcore and I love it. It’s great how alien the non-human races in this story are.
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Oct 5, 2018 21:20
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"You know what would put Thief at ease? *Another* skeleton hand!"
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Oct 6, 2018 02:29
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Omi no Kami posted:This is just a guess, because I've never understood PracGuide's mythology that well, but isn't the idea that buffs/debuffs only apply to Named when they're actively participating in a story? I thought that was one reason why the Calamities did so well (and why the Bard is such a threat), because they were really careful about recognizing narrative patterns and actively not participating in them. I know that it depends upon their significance in a particular story, like the mention of the heroes in the Crusade not having as much protection due to the large number "diluting" each one's relative significance. But I imagine that simply being Named means you have some sort of individual narrative, even if you might have more or less significance in any particular situation. People don't randomly become Named, after all. I think the best explanation is just "the battle had far more narrative significance to Cat's story as Squire (plus Cat effectively being protected by her Rule of Three with Lone Swordsman) than it did Exiled Prince (whose narrative likely would have had more weight if it involved reclaiming his position in that city Tyrant is from, if I had to guess)." tithin posted:Wasn't the exiled prince not explicitly named? He was definitely Named.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:25
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I think Black also goes into some stuff about how plot armor doesn't stop you from getting ganked for being a moron.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:58
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They also talk about how magic items can betray you at the worst times (His arrow repelling armor).
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Oct 6, 2018 08:04
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he had an arrow repelling helmet that he wasnt wearing, so he could give a speech with his face visible narrative doesnt protect you from being an idiot
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Oct 6, 2018 08:24
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violent sex idiot posted:he had an arrow repelling helmet that he wasnt wearing, so he could give a speech with his face visible At the same time, giving a good speech is very important, narratively - and no matter what you can't wear your armor 24/7 - that's a fairly forgivable error.
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Oct 6, 2018 15:38
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Wolpertinger posted:giving a good speech is very important, narratively
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Oct 6, 2018 17:28
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lurksion posted:I don't remember this being true a single time in Guide Yeah, it's more that Named have a compulsion to do certain things that might not be in their best interest (like villain monologues). Though giving into their role's compulsions is a bigger problem for villains than heroes.
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Oct 8, 2018 00:04
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