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Avalerion posted:But “just shut it down now” is not a solution that will be accepted by anyone. Just getting rid of cars isn’t happening, but switching to electromobiles might - though even that is going to be insanely difficult.
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Dec 1, 2018 10:40
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TACD posted:That’s the intractable problem; the ‘proper’ solution (rapid transition away from fossil fuels and from a growth-based capitalist society) isn’t tenable and might not even be possible to enact in an ordered, top-down fashion, but carrying on as we are is also clearly untenable. So we’re left with weak half-measures that are better than nothing but far short of what’s needed to prevent the problem getting worse, never mind making it better, and a thread full of increasingly depressed and/or radicalised people. Don't hand a person a dying planet then chastise them for radicalizing.
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Dec 1, 2018 18:11
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TACD posted:That’s the intractable problem; the ‘proper’ solution (rapid transition away from fossil fuels and from a growth-based capitalist society) isn’t tenable and might not even be possible to enact in an ordered, top-down fashion, but carrying on as we are is also clearly untenable. So we’re left with weak half-measures that are better than nothing but far short of what’s needed to prevent the problem getting worse, never mind making it better, and a thread full of increasingly depressed and/or radicalised people. Totally. The bit I've been trying to add is violence/revolution might not make it any more possible to solve. With out some "Fight Club" type organization, but that's fantasy. Unlike Malcolm X or other examples of success through those types of means, there isn't some external oppression felt by large groups of people (in here anyway) that will galvanize action. So what makes those avenues less of a fantasy than top down? I guess we'll see if the heat rising changes that. I know rime is salivating in anticipation
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Dec 1, 2018 18:19
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imho its going to be a fairly "rapid" generational attitude shift. you can see it with AOC now and the australian kids. genx chose to ignore it, millenials mostly whine about it, post-millenials will "try and do something", and then the generation after that will be radical as gently caress. nowhere near rapid enough, but each generations moderates will look like total loving assholes to the next, and full blown nazis to the one after that. in that vein probably one of the most effective things you can do is scare children. StabbinHobo fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 1, 2018 |
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Dec 1, 2018 19:29
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Potato Salad posted:Don't hand a person a dying planet then chastise them for radicalizing. StabbinHobo posted:genx chose to ignore it, millenials mostly whine about it, post-millenials will "try and do something", and then the generation after that will be radical as gently caress.
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Dec 1, 2018 20:04
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It won't take long before littering gets you decked as hard as dropping n bombs tbh.
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Dec 1, 2018 20:04
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:It won't take long before littering gets you decked as hard as dropping n bombs tbh. Alternatively, society succumbs to blame-shifting and nihilism, and does the race to the bottom.
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Dec 1, 2018 20:11
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cannot wait to meet my radical ecoterrorist grandkids
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Dec 1, 2018 23:09
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i give them hash brownies and they give me the severed head of an oligarch and we all link arms and sing about the last tree on earth (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 1, 2018 23:10
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incredible flesh posted:i give them hash brownies and they give me the severed head of an oligarch and we all link arms and sing about the last tree on earth maybe I'm a bad person but I lol'd
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Dec 2, 2018 02:48
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The global food system is broken, leaving billions of people either underfed or overweight and driving the planet towards climate catastrophe. Message from 130 national academies of science peer-review report 3 years in making.quote:The food system also fails to properly nourish billions of people. More than 820 million people went hungry last year, according to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation, while a third of all people did not get enough vitamins. At the same time, 600 million people were classed as obese and 2 billion overweight, with serious consequences for their health. On top of this, more than 1bn tonnes of food is wasted every year, a third of the total produced. Rime fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 03:35
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that doesn't sound that bad... i mean, it is in an "ethical" sense but in a gigantic-systems sense having the top and bottom 10% be a little aberrant while solving for the 80% in the middle is pretty much as good as things get. what's that headlines law that is like "reporter discovers yet another thing follows power law distribution"
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Dec 2, 2018 03:47
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Rime posted:The global food system is broken, leaving billions of people either underfed or overweight and driving the planet towards climate catastrophe. Message from 130 national academies of science peer-review report 3 years in making. Saying it's broken implies that it was working at some point.
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Dec 2, 2018 03:53
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StabbinHobo posted:that doesn't sound that bad... i mean, it is in an "ethical" sense but in a gigantic-systems sense having the top and bottom 10% be a little aberrant while solving for the 80% in the middle is pretty much as good as things get. I'm sure the people who are starving to death are thrilled about their contribution to your food security overton window.
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Dec 2, 2018 03:54
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I can't say I ever imagined there was an all-encompassing Global Food System. Still not entirely convinced really.
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Dec 2, 2018 04:24
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Surprise Giraffe posted:I can't say I ever imagined there was an all-encompassing Global Food System. It's existed in some degree of complexity for literally hundreds of years. For a particularly callous example, look at 19th-century history of England's involvement in India, and follow it up through the 1940s. 1866 Orissa famine as a starter (1.5M starved to death while 200M pounds of rice were exported), follow general history up through the more complicated Bengal famine of 1943 (horrible famine / drought plus war efforts putting Bengal in a horrible spot, war rationing by England wrecking the local economy, scorched-earth policies on food and boats being implemented to prevent a potential Japanese advance, and forced fixed-prices to the allied forces buying up huge amounts of food and shipping them to supply war efforts or other allied nations undergoing famines or shortages, plus the ever-present greed factor by anyone in a position to make a buck along the way). In modernity, it's less pure colonial asshattery and more chasing profit / commodification at the expense of the locals who would have eaten the food. Quinoa in Peru / Bolivia as an example of that. It's a standard grain staple which first skyrocketed in price as it became a global fad (starving out the locals as it became more profitable for landowners to export it), and then plummeted as everyone started growing it everywhere else (but after everyone had retooled their practices to chase the western prices). The commodification of food supplies in a system of global trade pretty much by definition must create a Global Food System, and unless somehow we made it illegal to import or export food (a potentially terrible idea moving forward given the threat of less-predictable weather patterns and massive famines), it's pretty much going to be a thing forever and always has. I think the only thing that's really changed is how far any given food product can reach, globally-speaking.
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Dec 2, 2018 05:07
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To add to the above is hosed up poo poo like Asperagus. Primarily grown in Peru, which doesn't have a ton of arable land right? Turns out Asperagus is one of the few crops which is saline resistant and enjoys a salted environment. So farmers have been literally Salting the earth for years as an effective herbicide & pesticide.
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Dec 2, 2018 05:32
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Salt Fish posted:I'm sure the people who are starving to death are thrilled about their contribution to your food security overton window. People have starved to death throughout literally all of human history. Spoiler alert: it's about to get a lot loving worse. This is probably our high-water mark, the best we'll ever do. How are u fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 06:12
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Rime posted:To add to the above is hosed up poo poo like Asperagus. Primarily grown in Peru, which doesn't have a ton of arable land right? Turns out Asperagus is one of the few crops which is saline resistant and enjoys a salted environment. So farmers have been literally Salting the earth for years as an effective herbicide & pesticide. To add to that part, too -- almost 100% of that asparagus is exported. 80% of it goes to the USA and about 20% goes to Europe and Asian markets. Almost nobody in Peru eats it as it's not a traditional part of their food culture. They don't have much farmland to begin with; this is otherwise usable farming land being salted to grow a crop they'll send out of the country, rather than growing something that will be eaten locally, while 22% of their population still lives in poverty with intermittent or chronic food shortages. That's way, way better than they used to be (especially on the childhood front, where they've made really impressive improvements), but it's still an example of misplaced priorities in a global food system. Someone could maybe argue that the greater profits from asparagus exports might provide for importation of better, more nutritious foods than they could've grown on that land otherwise, but if it was actually playing out that way, I question why 22% of the population would still be going hungry.
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Dec 2, 2018 08:07
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Sundae posted:To add to that part, too -- almost 100% of that asparagus is exported. 80% of it goes to the USA and about 20% goes to Europe and Asian markets. Almost nobody in Peru eats it as it's not a traditional part of their food culture. They don't have much farmland to begin with; this is otherwise usable farming land being salted to grow a crop they'll send out of the country, rather than growing something that will be eaten locally, while 22% of their population still lives in poverty with intermittent or chronic food shortages. Asparagus is one of those rare golden examples of the dangers of export specialization. A food-stuff with almost no nutritional value of which the worldwide demand fluctuates based on fine dining trends. Even if it was working out in good times (which as you observe it kinda does not) there will inevitably be bad times and at that point re-adjusting the economy (after literally salting the earth) will be very difficult and very painful. Today's global trade system encourages specializing in or two goods for small poor third world nations which renders them completely unable to attain the highly diversified economies of most first world nations.
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Dec 2, 2018 10:49
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TheCoach posted:Mexie has a great channel that very often touches on climate change and how our current system drives it.
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Dec 2, 2018 11:40
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Yes, Contra's new climate change video is pretty drat good. And I found Mexie's channel only because Contra had a stream with her. It's disgusting how junk gets so much popularity on youtube while great channels often go on with minimal audience ya know.
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Dec 2, 2018 12:58
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Mexie?
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Dec 2, 2018 13:22
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Portrait of a planet on the verge of climate catastrophe The Guardian, continuing to roll out the really big hammer and hit readers with it. Good poo poo.
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Dec 2, 2018 14:30
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Sundae posted:To add to that part, too -- almost 100% of that asparagus is exported. 80% of it goes to the USA and about 20% goes to Europe and Asian markets. Almost nobody in Peru eats it as it's not a traditional part of their food culture. They don't have much farmland to begin with; this is otherwise usable farming land being salted to grow a crop they'll send out of the country, rather than growing something that will be eaten locally, while 22% of their population still lives in poverty with intermittent or chronic food shortages. Is there any way to decontaminate soil that has been damaged this way?
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Dec 2, 2018 22:19
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friendbot2000 posted:Is there any way to decontaminate soil that has been damaged this way? I'm guessing that it's expensive and time-consuming. From this PDF: A Guide For Remediation Of Salt/Hydrocarbon Impacted Soil quote:A. Impact of Salt on Soil quote:C. Process of Remediation re-edit: Any soils or agriculture goons who can comment on remediation costs/timelines for well-salted soil intended for agricultural use? Accretionist fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 2, 2018 |
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Dec 2, 2018 22:58
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Accretionist posted:I'm guessing that it's expensive and time-consuming. Plus the opportunity cost of transitioning farmland that's not great for anything. MicroSiemens of electrical conductivity.
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Dec 2, 2018 23:11
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Hello Sailor posted:Plus the opportunity cost of transitioning farmland that's not great for anything. That's probably the main issue. I've never looked at soils stuff before but it looks like they'd need other salt-tolerant crops. 30,000 uS/cm → 0.3dS/m. From the same PDF, this chart's EC values make sense for cleaning up saltwater spills in North Dakota.  Which makes sense, looks like most US soil isn't very salty.  https://forages.oregonstate.edu/matchclover/soils So, 4 tons of gypsum per acre to remediate just 0.3 dS/m over four years. Asparagus tolerates up to 4.1 ds/M quote:Asparagus has been considered to be the most salt-tolerant vegetable crop And they're exploiting asparagus's salt-tolerance for weed/pest control? From Alibaba, agricultural-grade gypsum powder is $100 - $300 per ton. But I've run out of steam. I'm still curious as to:
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Dec 2, 2018 23:42
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friendbot2000 posted:Is there any way to decontaminate soil that has been damaged this way?
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Dec 3, 2018 00:30
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friendbot2000 posted:Is there any way to decontaminate soil that has been damaged this way? I'm glad other people answered this, because honestly I have no clue. Presumably yes, but I know nothing about efficacy/cost/approaches.
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Dec 3, 2018 01:20
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Does the globe get hotter or colder as the atmosphere thickens? The reason i ask is 2 fires thst have happened in my state had thickened the air so much that the sun was nearly blocked out and it was freezing. Is this a different effect from a greenhouse gas effect?
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Dec 3, 2018 01:39
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The simplest answer, if I'm understanding your question right, is that particulate matter has a cooling effect. It's a completely different effect from the the effect of greenhouse gases, and it's actually why we'd potentially see some rapid warming if we suddenly stopped burning all coal.
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Dec 3, 2018 02:18
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Yes, the atmosphere does not "thicken" in the way you are saying, unless we count pressure differences in elevation (which is not really relevant). Greenhouse gases, like CO2, are those that let short-wave radiation from the sun enter the atmosphere without interference but absorb long-wave radiation emitted by the Earth, so as to warm up the atmosphere. It's got nothing really to do with smoke or particles in the air.
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Dec 3, 2018 02:28
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MiddleOne posted:Today's global trade system encourages specializing in or two goods for small poor third world nations which renders them completely unable to attain the highly diversified economies of most first world nations. feature not bug, etc.
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Dec 3, 2018 03:03
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Sundae posted:I'm glad other people answered this, because honestly I have no clue. Presumably yes, but I know nothing about efficacy/cost/approaches. Ha. Me too friend. It is one of the reasons I love these dead gay forums because we have a lot of people from all sorts of different backgrounds that can lend their insight and knowledge on a subject.
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Dec 3, 2018 15:02
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Don't think I've seen any articles here talking about the recent Lancet report: The Climate Apocalypse Is Now, and It’s Happening to You quote:The Lancet report attempts much the same kind of grounding in individual experience. Carbon dioxide counts in parts-per-million and error margins on global circulation models aren’t the most intuitive ways to talk about the end of the world. Abstract numbers and distant-future scenarios don’t cut it. “Today’s babies, by adulthood, will live on a planet without an Arctic. Prevalence of heatstroke and extreme weather will have redefined global labour and production beyond recognition,” as an editorial accompanying the report puts it. “Multiple cities will be uninhabitable and migration patterns will be far beyond those levels already creating pressure worldwide.” Cats and dogs living together; mass hysteria. Your planet’s on fire, kids. Wired also compares Lancet to the NCA, which can't make direct policy recommendations re: CO2: quote:But the NCA can (and does) tailor its analyses to the people who might best put them into effect. Lempert’s chapter on adaptation, for example, leverages the basic assumptions of a civil engineer. “In some sense the structure of the chapter is to try and get them to do things,” he says. Past climate no longer predicts the present or the future—that idea is what scientists call stationarity, and it’s pretty much dead. The planet’s past performance is no longer a predictor of future results. So if engineers have been making infrastructure assumptions (sea wall height, 100-year flood levels, days of the year above a certain temperature), well, they should probably not do that. How they feel about climate change as a political issue doesn’t matter. “Even in the red parts of Florida, people will vote for bond issues to raise the water treatment plants, and let’s not talk about why,” Lempert says.
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Dec 3, 2018 17:46
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Wakko posted:Don't think I've seen any articles here talking about the recent Lancet report: That is a really interesting point to make regarding infrastructure mitigation. We are kind of out of our depth in regards to being about to build effectively for climate change so I am not sure how that is solved beyond "gently caress it, build that poo poo as high as you can just in case." friendbot2000 fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 3, 2018 |
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Dec 3, 2018 18:02
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Another take I’d like to see is “If you kill off your customers who will buy your crap then”.
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Dec 3, 2018 18:11
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There is an interesting bill up to be referred to a committee in Virginia in the 2019 session. Here is the synopsis for HB 1635 : Fossil fuel projects moratorium; clean energy mandates.quote:Fossil fuel projects moratorium; clean energy mandates. Establishes a moratorium, effective January 1, 2020, on approval by any state agency or political subdivision of any approval required for (i) electric generating facilities that generate fossil fuel energy through the combustion of a fossil fuel resource; (ii) import or export terminals for fossil fuel resources; (iii) certain maintenance activities relating to an import or export terminal for a fossil fuel resource; (iv) gathering lines or pipelines for the transport of any fossil fuel resource that requires the use of eminent domain on private property; (v) certain maintenance activities relating to such gathering lines or pipelines; (vi) refineries of a fossil fuel resource; and (vii) exploration for any type of fossil fuel, unless preempted by applicable federal law. The measure also requires that at least 80 percent of the electricity sold by a retail electric supplier in calendar years 2028 through 2035 be generated from clean energy resources. In calendar year 2036 and every calendar year thereafter, all of the electricity sold by a retail electric supplier is required to be generated from clean energy resources. The clean energy mandates apply to a public utility or other person that sells not less than 1,000 megawatt hours of electric energy to retail customers or generates not less than 1,000 megawatt hours of electric energy for use by the person. The Director of the Department of Mines, Minerals and Energy is authorized to bring actions for injunctions to enforce these requirements. The measure requires the Department to adopt a Climate Action Plan that addresses all aspects of climate change, including mitigation, adaptation, resiliency, and assistance in the transition from current energy sources to clean renewable energy. The measure provides that residents of the Commonwealth and organizations shall have the legal standing to sue to ensure that its provisions and any Climate Action Plan are enforced.
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Dec 3, 2018 18:13
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friendbot2000 posted:That is a really interesting point to make regarding infrastructure mitigation. We are kind of out of our depth in regards to being about to build effectively for climate change so I am not sure how that is solved beyond "gently caress it, build that poo poo as high as you can just in case." Design for shorter service life and increase factor of safety.
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Dec 3, 2018 18:38
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