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Oh my.
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Feb 4, 2019 09:44
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I mean if you're looking for writing with tight cohesive and easily comprehensible plotlines than web serials are probably not the place to look. Long meandering "journey not the destination" type stories are a feature not a bug in the web serial space. It's kind of in the name.
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Feb 4, 2019 13:01
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That's not true and you know it's not true. Worm had more of a plot than Ward. Twig had a plot. Pact had a plot. PGtE has a plot. UNSONG had a plot. Having a plot and being a web serial are not mutually exclusive. My criticism isn't that the plot is meandering; I like plenty of meandering things. My criticism is that there's no point to it all. Ward has a couple good chapters but most of it is just incredibly boring. I get that Wildbow is trying to show that Victoria is depressed or how she disassociates in some situations or what have you but that doesn't make it good. I'm 10 arcs in and nothing has changed for Victoria.
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Feb 4, 2019 15:58
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If you think nothing has changed for her in ten arcs then you quite plainly are not actually reading the words on the page. Even the way her internal monologue works around various points of her trauma is radically different than it was at the beginning, where even thinking about her powers would send her mind to a terrible place. There's a lot going on in the background of Ward, it's just not spelled out in extremely obvious ways.
Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 16:02
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Nothing had actually changed. Can you tell me even one facet of her character that has changed in the last ten arcs? The situation has changed but Victoria hasn't.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:04
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She had panic attacks at using flight for like the first two chapters of the first arc and you think that's Victoria's character changing? That's not how character development works lmao.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:05
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Well if you'd just listen to the podcast...
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Feb 4, 2019 16:25
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Her entire character arc has been that of someone slowly recovering from depression and horrible trauma. She feels more alive, happier, less fatalistic, has a purpose driving her. This is all pretty heavy subtext that's shown by how her inner monologue is written rather than by it being explicitly pointed out so it's understandable that you'd miss it if you're not paying attention, but to claim she hasn't changed at all is an extraordinarily dumb take tbh.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:35
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Here’s my two cents. I liked Worm, enjoyed Pact despite the relentless pacing, and burned out on Twig after about 8 arcs which were mostly enjoyable. I made it about five updates into Ward before bailing out. It lacked a compelling hook for me, which is weird given Wildbow’s previous works, and nothing I’ve read here since then has made me want to go back in. Meanwhile I really enjoy Wandering Inn, Practical Guide is awesome, and I’ve made it pretty far into even fairly mediocre serials like Heretical Edge. Something about Ward just doesn’t work for me at all.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:52
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The Shortest Path posted:Her entire character arc has been that of someone slowly recovering from depression and horrible trauma. She feels more alive, happier, less fatalistic, has a purpose driving her. This is all pretty heavy subtext that's shown by how her inner monologue is written rather than by it being explicitly pointed out so it's understandable that you'd miss it if you're not paying attention, but to claim she hasn't changed at all is an extraordinarily dumb take tbh. Victoria's character since the start of the story has been that of a person trying to deal with their trauma unsuccessfully through drowning it in work. You're reading far more subtext than is actually present in the text. The changes that you're presenting as evidence that Victoria's character has changed are things that happened in arc 1 of the story. Like, the shift in character you're talking about is the thing that happened in Daybreak/Flare.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:54
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Sampatrick posted:Victoria's character since the start of the story has been that of a person trying to deal with their trauma unsuccessfully through drowning it in work. You're reading far more subtext than is actually present in the text. The changes that you're presenting as evidence that Victoria's character has changed are things that happened in arc 1 of the story. Like, the shift in character you're talking about is the thing that happened in Daybreak/Flare. Someone is over-reading the subtext in a Wildbow story? And also smugly giving the “I’m not surprised you missed it” line, like they’re just that much better than you for finding meaning in a story that probably isn’t there? Well I never....
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Feb 4, 2019 17:34
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Velius posted:Here’s my two cents. I liked Worm, enjoyed Pact despite the relentless pacing, and burned out on Twig after about 8 arcs which were mostly enjoyable. I made it about five updates into Ward before bailing out. It lacked a compelling hook for me, which is weird given Wildbow’s previous works, and nothing I’ve read here since then has made me want to go back in. This is basically me. I made it to around the 10th arc of Twig and burnt out on Ward after the Fallen arc. I'm sure I'll finish Twig someday, and return to Ward but I'm taking a break. I've also put Practical Guide on the back burner, I think I petered off when the Fae started to do things. I really need to get back to this. Wandering Inn, I still love unless it's about Emp or Rags which used to be cool but is just too painful to read. I'm also off on a wuxia kick and while I will not say the writing of those is anything close to the above, it's got a cheesy campy pull that keeps me reading somehow. I've been marathoning series and that is a lot of words. Kalas fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 17:39
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Sampatrick posted:My opinion on Ward is probably skewed because I can't really handle how we're getting so deep into the story and I just don't see the point of it all. Like, what's the story? I'm also like an arc behind so take that with a grain of salt. Couldn't you say the same thing about Twig during most of its run, though? There wasn't much of an overarching plot to that outside of the individual arcs for a really long time, with the arcs just sort of revealing things about the setting or leading to the growth of the characters. Ward is basically the same sort of thing, only I'd argue that its arcs at least have more of a plot progression to them than Twig's early to mid arcs. Like, we have a general sense of how things are progressing with the big players. Heck, you can say the same thing about Worm. I really don't understand this opinion unless you're comparing the entire run of Worm/Twig with what we have of Ward. By this point in both Worm and Twig we also didn't have any sort of overarching plot with a final goal to speak of. edit: Or Wandering Inn for that matter (though I'd argue that wildbow's stuff, PracGuide, and Mother of Learning are all considerably better than Wandering Inn). Pretty much none of these web serials have the sort of straight-forward plot and defined end-point that you're implying Ward doesn't have. edit2: My current impression from Ward is that March is clearly the Primary Enemy currently (with Cradle and Love Lost as sort of secondary enemies working with or being manipulated by March), and that March's goals/motives will be the hook into some greater overarching plot. So kinda like the Coil stuff in Worm. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 18:10
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I'm just saying that iron teeth is p good if you like reading about the end of human civilisation but in a humorous way Goblin society will tear it all down
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Feb 4, 2019 18:10
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I enjoy Ward and think it has character development. It's fine to not like it too. The real question is what's the clever twist with the name "Ward" and its meaning. Spoilers for all the names. Worm - it's the bad guy. Pact - the pact is he's not real. Twig - they're the twig that starts a new branch of nobility. Also a reference to america being all overgrown death-forest too. So, what's ward?
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Feb 4, 2019 18:23
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the obvious is : its about protecting the world or whatever. but also its about people who have been institutionalized. all of breakthrough have been in hopsitals or prisons or both
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Feb 4, 2019 18:52
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violent sex idiot posted:the obvious is : its about protecting the world or whatever. but also its about people who have been institutionalized. all of breakthrough have been in hopsitals or prisons or both Given the hints about some place capes go when they die, it's possible that that place is itself comparable in some thematically significant ways to an institution (probably more in bad ways than good ones).
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Feb 4, 2019 18:54
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violent sex idiot posted:the obvious is : its about protecting the world or whatever. but also its about people who have been institutionalized. all of breakthrough have been in hopsitals or prisons or both 21 Muns posted:Given the hints about some place capes go when they die, it's possible that that place is itself comparable in some thematically significant ways to an institution (probably more in bad ways than good ones). I missed that meaning because I was thinking shield but yeah, the place capes go when they die can itself be the ward.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:57
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Ytlaya posted:Couldn't you say the same thing about Twig during most of its run, though? There wasn't much of an overarching plot to that outside of the individual arcs for a really long time, with the arcs just sort of revealing things about the setting or leading to the growth of the characters. The rebellion against the crown in Twig started like a couple arcs in and was the primary framing device for the entire serial. The very first interlude was Cynthia saving Percy and recruiting him into the rebellion. I'm probably being too harsh on Wildbow because Ward really isn't so much worse than Twig but Twig had both an overarching plot introduced much earlier than Ward has, each individual arc was more focused, and the characters were much better written. I should clarify that I think Twig is pretty much the best structured serial that I've read so I'm probably a little biased but man does Ward feel like two steps down compared to it.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:08
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Also, Mother of Learning and PGtE both have had much stronger and clearer story arcs than Ward so far. I've never read Wandering Inn and have no real desire to based on how people describe it so I can't really comment on it.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:09
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Practical Guide What does everyone think the Bard’s target is? If we take the conversation with Tyrant at his word (BIG if), she started this war in order to target the Dead King. But just like Cat was pondering during that convo, I think that answer is too easy. For one thing, the Bard has been shown to be in thrall to Above AND Below. Why would she target Below’s champion? Instead, I think she’s after a different game, one just as far up on the power scale but not beholden to the Rules of the Game: Ranger. Ranger is the great outlier, the fly in the ointment, the wild card factor that isn’t bound by existing rules. Of all the players in the game, she is the one least likely to allow the Bard to manipulate her, so I think the Bard is trying to clear her off the board. Any other possibilities?
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Feb 4, 2019 19:26
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I have no clue how she intends to do it but my hope is that she's after the dwarves or some poo poo like that. Going after a person just feels too small for her.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:38
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Silynt posted:Practical Guide I think she just wants to keep the traditional named stories going so her goal is to get rid of the folks messing with them. I think that's why she'd like to get rid of Procer. The Dead King is a big story on his own and also very traditional (and powerful). So he gets to stay. Cordelia is not interested in having named be in charge of anything and isn't named herself so I think she has to go. Cat is obviously problematic, but it seems like bard doesn't want to kill her based on https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/08/24/interlude-empires/ Sampatrick posted:I have no clue how she intends to do it but my hope is that she's after the dwarves or some poo poo like that. Going after a person just feels too small for her. gnomes?
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Feb 4, 2019 20:03
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Silynt posted:Practical Guide Indirect rebellion. If we assume the Tyrant is correct about the rules that the Bard is operating under and speculates correctly about her origin as forcibly converted story savvy rebel against the collective Divine order, then aside from the capital D divine geas forcing her, she's probably not all that enthusiastic about her job. She might be playing the long game with carefully constructed scenarios and self rationalizations to set the board to either indirectly ruin the game for both Above and Below without falling victim to the "flee from hearts desire" part of the geas, or just to engineer a permanent suicide that doesn't get foiled by the "flee from certain death" part of the geas. The obvious target of the Dead King might be there just to provide plausible deniability to convince whatever God, angel or devil that is maintaining the geas that she's still playing by the constraints set upon her. And considering how the representatives of the Gods operate under alien morality and don't really get how the mortal mind works (see contrition attempting to "redeem" Catherine by showing her visions of destroying her own legions and killing her friends), that might be enough to keep them blinded to her agenda.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:10
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Ytlaya posted:Edit: Or Wandering Inn for that matter (though I'd argue that wildbow's stuff, PracGuide, and Mother of Learning are all considerably better than Wandering Inn). Pretty much none of these web serials have the sort of straight-forward plot and defined end-point that you're implying Ward doesn't have. 
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Feb 4, 2019 20:57
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Oo Koo posted:Indirect rebellion. If we assume the Tyrant is correct about the rules that the Bard is operating under and speculates correctly about her origin as forcibly converted story savvy rebel against the collective Divine order, then aside from the capital D divine geas forcing her, she's probably not all that enthusiastic about her job. The “flee from her heart’s desire” part of her geas is an interesting point that I was ignoring - what exactly is her heart’s desire, and why would working towards it be counter to her position as Intercessor? I think that question is probably central to determining her plan.
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Feb 4, 2019 23:01
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I enjoy The Wandering Inn, but the core quality of its writing and plotting are...pretty drat bad. Personally I have a very high tolerance for trashy fantasy novels, but I'm surprised so many other goons read it.
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Feb 4, 2019 23:48
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I stopped reading Ward around meeting Goddess, when I had a few weeks without internet. Getting back into it felt like chore. I'll probably go back and read it at some point. TWI has a lot of flaws, technical or otherwise, but there are still chapters that I really enjoy. When it hits it lands.
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Feb 4, 2019 23:59
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builds character posted:I enjoy Ward and think it has character development. It's fine to not like it too. there are multiple meanings in all three it's least interesting in Pact
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Feb 5, 2019 00:37
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ward as in the noun and verb protection sense, and ward in the hospital sense, are obviously both pretty important in multiple ways there's also ward as administrative division, which doesn't feel like it fits as well but might still be relevant to, say, the flailing of the broken worm-bits
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Feb 5, 2019 00:42
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Solidarity with the "meh wildbow" opinion. If I wanted unrelenting bleakness I could ponder entropic decay.
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Feb 5, 2019 03:49
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I feel like I've walked into Bizarro Web Serial Megathread. It's just surreal. How things can change in a year! Ward's interesting. Not as a story, mind you, but where it sits in Wildbow's body of work and how it relates to the reception of both Pact and Twig. Especially Twig. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 04:21
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I feel like I've walked into Bizarro Web Serial Megathread. It's just surreal. How things can change in a year!
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Feb 5, 2019 05:04
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There's also "Ward" in the sense that a ward is also a specific person's apprentice.
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Feb 5, 2019 05:05
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I think part of the reason I feel defensive of Ward is that I actually understand the complaints and would have likely previously agreed with them, but I feel like it's gotten to a pretty good place recently where the "aimless and meandering" criticism isn't really that accurate anymore (and while I can understand the unfavorable comparisons with Twig, I would absolutely strongly disagree with any unfavorable comparisons with Worm).Cicero posted:I enjoy The Wandering Inn, but the core quality of its writing and plotting are...pretty drat bad. To be fair, Wandering Inn is still better than the vast majority of translated Japanese/Korean/Chinese web novels that people read. I sort of mentally split web serials into "stuff where I can forget/ignore that I'm reading something written by a random person on the internet" and "stuff where I can't forget that." It's kind of a subjective thing and it's hard to explain exactly what makes something feel like the former versus the latter. With the latter it's like I can "feel" the author and their decision-making process behind the text. I would rank Wandering Inn highly within that second category. Forge of Destiny is probably the most unusual example where it seems like it should fall in that second category, but somehow doesn't. Like, it's something written on an online forum with direct input from readers, frequent minor spelling/syntax mistakes, and a flexible plot, but I can somehow still trust the author in a way I just can't with something like Wandering Inn.
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Feb 5, 2019 05:05
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GreyjoyBastard posted:there are multiple meanings in all three Nah, it's called Pact because it's packed full of action
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Feb 5, 2019 06:10
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Ward got good imo. I tried reading it again by jumping into the latest chapter and ended up reading all of arc 10 and 11. I think both arcs are well paced, have interesting antagonists, cool fight scenes and all the new/reintroduced characters are great. The main cast finally stopped being invalids are now enjoyable to read. Now granted that's no excuse for the first ~8 arcs of the story, and I still think the central concept- teenagers attending group therapy who for no reason at all are also superheroes in the postapocalyptic Worm setting- should cause Wildbow deep personal embarrassment. It just seems like he finished that part of story and started writing Worm 2. I'm fully on board as long as he keeps at it.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:03
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Metalogical posted:I still think the central concept- teenagers attending group therapy who for no reason at all are also superheroes in the postapocalyptic Worm setting- should cause Wildbow deep personal embarrassment. It just seems like he finished that part of story and started writing Worm 2. I'm fully on board as long as he keeps at it. Ward feels less like a story to me than it does a series of semi-random events, and I wonder if that mismatch is part of the reason: almost all of the interesting stuff is linked to mental health, therapy, and the support group, and I think WB is more than capable of telling an interesting story about these topics, but Ward is not that story. This is unfounded speculation, but since Pact and Twig performed relatively poorly compared to the back half of Worm, and since I feel you could cut 100% of the superhero stuff out of Ward without harming its quality, I'm wondering if the story wasn't his attempt to appease the super-passionate echo chamber that is his core readership while simultaneously writing something interesting. I dunno- the story has genuinely great moments from time to time, but I think the very fact that its best scenes are genuinely fun makes the majority of it much more frustrating to slog through. (I also wish that WB would read a screenwriting book or something: going hundreds of thousands of words without articulating what your story is about is completely unacceptable, and delivering the closest thing we've gotten to a framing device through a single chapter of exposition from a talking head is barely any better.) Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 21:22
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TWI non-patreon: Pyrite is cool and good. Quiet huge badasses are common enough in fantasy, but they're usually not this chill and smart and, like, humble. I don't remember him being that much of a powerhouse when Rags first recruited his tribe, I guess all that fighting (especially vs the Unseen Empire) must've boosted him a lot.
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Feb 5, 2019 23:06
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Are there any good web serials not listed in the OP?
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Feb 5, 2019 23:36
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