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Snow Cone Capone posted:Also I've only ever read Eric in standard novel form and that was kind a chore despite how short it is. You can definitely see the brain disease in Raising Steam since "running out of material" doesn't lead to suddenly becoming a sloppy writer. Unseen Academicals is bad because it's about football  / 
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Mar 16, 2019 17:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The only Discworld books I genuinely don't like are Monstrous Regiment and Unseen Academicals. It's not so much that the writing in them is particularly worse or better than the others, it that both those books are extremely predictable and the gags quickly become boring and repetitive. Unseen Academicals are the worst Discworld book. There's no real conflict (the wizards have to play soccer, but they don't have to win) and no real antagonist (Shank is an rear end in a top hat, but who cares if he cheats at soccer? Nothing really depends on it). It just feels lazy.
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Mar 16, 2019 17:57
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Snow Cone Capone posted:Lords and Ladies is the 2nd most forgettable Discworld IMO, only Moving Pictures tops it Lords and Ladies has some the absolute best Weatherwax character moments and some fantastic bits. it's the third best witches book behind Carpe and Maskerade. The 'that's the price of being the best' scene and the witch off with the upstarts girls are triple A Bangers and it's got the best "BLESSING BE UPON THIS HOUSE" riff Pratchett ever spun
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Mar 16, 2019 17:59
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Jerry Cotton posted:You can definitely see the brain disease in Raising Steam since "running out of material" doesn't lead to suddenly becoming a sloppy writer. Unseen Academicals is bad because it's about football That's actually the one I remember the least, I should re-read it. Is the writing really that noticeably sloppy? Hieronymous Alloy posted:The only Discworld books I genuinely don't like are Monstrous Regiment and Unseen Academicals. It's not so much that the writing in them is particularly worse or better than the others, it that both those books are extremely predictable and the gags quickly become boring and repetitive. I agree on Unseen Academicals and Moving Pictures, but what didn't you like about Monstrous Regiment? That one's one of my favorites, the plot isn't incredibly strong but I liked the characters a lot and I really enjoyed the setting and the silly/sad history of Borogravia. I've heard people say that they disliked the way the reveal that every one of them is a woman being stretched out, and that it was obvious from the start, but I mean the name of the book is a reference to it, so  It was also a quite deft use of Vimes as a cameo character, he worked really well in that book I think
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Mar 16, 2019 18:10
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Monstrous Regiment is one of the few books that criticize war without glorifying it. The description of the gray-faced man with his coat held tight still haunts me sometimes. Also echoing the Angua dislike. Her entire arc just gets repeated over and over again in each book and there's way too many cringy "whoops I'm naked again!" moments, the worst being the one in Thud! where she and Sally mudwrestle. Her family made for good antagonists though, especially her brother Wolfgang.
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Mar 16, 2019 18:35
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Screaming Idiot posted:Monstrous Regiment is one of the few books that criticize war without glorifying it. Yeah nah.
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Mar 16, 2019 18:38
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Not a football man at all but I enjoyed Unseen Academicals; Snuff and Raising Steam, however, are really loving bad and I felt bad reading them because yeah, Pratchett was definitely on his way out then. Of the books before Unseen, there's none I really dislike, so I suppose the one I liked the least would be Eric because it's so short and felt like padding.
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Mar 16, 2019 18:39
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effervescible posted:For a long time Lords and Ladies was my favorite Discworld novel and I'm kind of marveling over the fact that so many find it forgettable. Just kind of interesting that we can love the series as a whole so much and still have such different takes. Just to be perfectly clear, saying L&L was one of the most forgettable discworld novels still puts it in the category of books I like that are good and I've read multiple times. Also, upon reconsideration, it's not even in the bottom 5. I just feel it's a bit overshadowed by Carpe Jugulum.
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Mar 16, 2019 18:40
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If any of you haven't yet, by the way, I extremely highly recommend A Blink of the Screen, the collected short fiction stuff. I bought it right after he died and there's some solid gold in there.DontMockMySmock posted:Just to be perfectly clear, saying L&L was one of the most forgettable discworld novels still puts it in the category of books I like that are good and I've read multiple times. Also, upon reconsideration, it's not even in the bottom 5. I just feel it's a bit overshadowed by Carpe Jugulum. Carpe Jugulum is a super high bar to clear, that book is excellent e: I had to look up all the Chekov references though, but that whole scene is funny enough to stand on its own even for a dumb like me Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Mar 16, 2019 |
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Mar 16, 2019 18:42
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Jerry Cotton posted:Yeah nah. War is unequivocably shown as a bad thing where the protagonists of the story do everything they can to avoid fighting and killing, with the exception of Jackrum, who is terrifying. No one wants the war except for upper-class twits who would never involve themselves and Jackrum who, as I noted earlier, is a monster. It is a thorough condemnation of war that goes out of its way to criticize it while showing those who espouse "glory and honor" to either be out-of-touch nitwits, lunatics, or both. It also mocks religion, causing Chernobyl Klansmen or whateverthefuck that rear end in a top hat's name is to clutch his pearls.
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Mar 16, 2019 18:49
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The Fifth Elephant is easily the best watch book. I mean, there is Nightwatch of course, but that is a different beast entirely. e X fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Mar 16, 2019 |
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Mar 16, 2019 18:54
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Jerry Cotton posted:You can definitely see the brain disease Can we please not do this again. It always leads to a competition to see who could tell from Pterry's writing the soonest, and it's deeply unpleasant.
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Mar 16, 2019 18:59
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Screaming Idiot posted:
One of my favorite little things about Monstrous Regiment is that Nuggan appears briefly in the Last Hero and even all the other gods thinks he's an rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 16, 2019 19:00
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e X posted:The Fifth Elephant is easily the best watch book. Thud! though
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Mar 16, 2019 19:28
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The Finnish translation of Snuff is called... "Nose-Blower"? Why not just call it "Snuff"? Other than it's illegal and kids are into it I guess.
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Mar 16, 2019 19:32
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SirSamVimes posted:Thud! though Thud! already leans to much into the „Vimes and Co. are unbeatable badasses“ for my taste. Also, it is again a dwarven society conspiracy and I feel that was done better on FE.
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Mar 16, 2019 19:46
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Thud was a decent Watch book but an excellent "history of why trolls and dwarfs hate each other" book. The whole Summoning Dark thing was a little meh but I personally really enjoyed the whole Koom Valley thing.
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Mar 16, 2019 20:16
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Do you think Pterry planned to kill off Vetinari fairly soon if he had been able to keep going?
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Mar 16, 2019 20:17
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Snow Cone Capone posted:Do you think Pterry planned to kill off Vetinari fairly soon if he had been able to keep going? He probably would have done a fakeout. Show Vetinari dying/being publicly assassinated at the beginning of the book, funeral sequence, speech by Sam Vimes with veiled remarks about how he'd catch the bugger that done it if only for stealing Vimes's opportunity to do it himself, rollicking chase scenes with cameos from the faculty of Unseen University trying to be detectives and failing, the near-collapse of Ankh-Morpork as the guilds start fighting prevented only by previously unpopular measures Vetinari pushed through dividing the power of the city leaders to maintain the keys to power while adding checks and balances to their authority, and an ending with Vetinari calmly resuming his duties after explaining that in order for a city to work, it can't hinge upon any single person and must live past him. As a further twist of irony, the "Vetinari" that was killed at the beginning of the book was actually Charlie, the body-double introduced in The Truth and the assassin was Vetinari himself in disguise. When asked why Vetinari would risk himself in such a gambit, Vetinari would merely smile and say the only one at risk would be the one foolish enough to try to catch him.
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Mar 16, 2019 20:40
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"Vetinari does a fakeout" has happened a million times though. He knew the whole time there was arsenic in the candles, didn't he? It definitely seems like the later books were grooming Sam as the begrudging-but-necessary leader of the "new" AM, as well as emphasizing more and more that Vetinari was getting old and frail as hell.
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Mar 16, 2019 20:43
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effervescible posted:For a long time Lords and Ladies was my favorite Discworld novel and I'm kind of marveling over the fact that so many find it forgettable. Just kind of interesting that we can love the series as a whole so much and still have such different takes.
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Mar 16, 2019 21:40
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Xander77 posted:I wonder if Pratchett came back to the elves for the final Discworld book because he loved the theme so much, or because he understood the first take was pretty bad and wanted to do better. I really liked the first take on the elves. The idea that they were these strange, sub-sapient alien creatures with magnetic senses fits perfectly with the mythology behind them while making them their own thing, and then later appearances make them more boring by fleshing them out and making them more understandable. The last Discworld book's climax was bad, though. If I wanted to hear about RAD MAGIC BATTLES I'd read literally every other fantasy series. I really think another author went in behind Terry and wrote in a bunch of stuff to tie in the bits Terry couldn't finish.
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Mar 16, 2019 21:52
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Snow Cone Capone posted:"Vetinari does a fakeout" has happened a million times though. He knew the whole time there was arsenic in the candles, didn't he? I figured that he was grooming Moist von Lipvig as his own replacement.
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Mar 16, 2019 21:56
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Snow Cone Capone posted:"Vetinari does a fakeout" has happened a million times though. He knew the whole time there was arsenic in the candles, didn't he? He figured out the candle thing early on, but I don't think Vimes would have accepted the mantle of Patrician, nor would Vetinari allow him to take the position. Sam understands the need for checks and balances, but if he were forced into the role of Patrician he'd quickly turn Ankh-Morpork into a police state. Remember how Vimes wants to shut down or censor the newspapers, or how how Terry once described Vimes's wishes would be for everyone to stay in their own homes standing motionless and upright with their palms on their tables? Vimes is great as Commander, but even he knows the danger of power; he'd rather be one of those who limits the power of others than to be the one who wields it himself. SirSamVimes posted:I figured that he was grooming Moist von Lipvig as his own replacement. I thought so too. Moist is Vetinari's opposite in every way, but he's clever, forward-thinking, and charismatic, and in the context of the story Terry wanted to tell he would be a good replacement. I'm glad that never came to be, though. I thought Moist was an irritating prat who constantly failed upward, and that godawful live adaptation only cemented my opinion of him. Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 16, 2019 |
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Mar 16, 2019 21:58
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Screaming Idiot posted:Monstrous Regiment is one of the few books that criticize war without glorifying it.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:04
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A Farewell to Arms would've been great without the mushy bits
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Mar 16, 2019 22:05
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Screaming Idiot posted:He figured out the candle thing early on, but I don't think Vimes would have accepted the mantle of Patrician, nor would Vetinari allow him to take the position. Sam understands the need for checks and balances, but if he were forced into the role of Patrician he'd quickly turn Ankh-Morpork into a police state. Remember how Vimes wants to shut down or censor the newspapers, or how how Terry once described Vimes's wishes would be for everyone to stay in their own homes standing motionless and upright with their palms on their tables? Vimes is great as Commander, but even he knows the danger of power; he'd rather be one of those who limits the power of others than to be the one who wields it himself. To be honest, it also seemed like in addition to grooming Vimes an/or Moist, he was also slowly guiding the city itself to be independent of a single ruler. I mean yes he was still controlling everything, but it seemed like he was guiding things so that when he died, Vimes would succeed him as an elected-style city manager, rather than a single figurehead like himself or the kings before him. I'm not explaining myself too well because I'm pretty blazed right now and can't remember any good specific examples, but I felt like the whole point of the Moist trilogy was to demonstrate how the city was modernizing and probably wouldn't need a Patrician anyway, as much as it would need a mayor and city council or whatnot.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:11
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Screaming Idiot posted:War is unequivocably shown as a bad thing where the protagonists of the story do everything they can to avoid fighting and killing, with the exception of Jackrum, who is terrifying. No one wants the war except for upper-class twits who would never involve themselves and Jackrum who, as I noted earlier, is a monster. “One of the few” was your exceptionally dumb statement he was mocking.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:11
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Jerry Cotton posted:A Farewell to Arms would've been great without the mushy bits Noted sentimentalist Earnest Hemingway
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Mar 16, 2019 22:45
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FactsAreUseless posted:Not to go all Lamps here but I think you should expand your reading horizons. Drone Jett posted:“One of the few” was your exceptionally dumb statement he was mocking. Sorry, meant to type "fantasy books" here, I was phoneposting and didn't proofread. My mockery is well-deserved. Most fantasy literature I've read that even vaguely criticizes war also has at least one grizzled but "honorable" veteran wax poetic about the horrors of war while simultaneously playing up the "hard men making hard decisions" part. In Monstrous Regiment, Jackrum references that role while showing you that she is an absolute monster who would have been overjoyed if the war had continued forever, and even that gets averted when she is reunited with her family.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:51
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READ REAL BOOKS
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Mar 16, 2019 22:51
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Screaming Idiot posted:Jackrum references that role while showing you that she is an absolute monster ... that's the most pointless spoiler tag I've ever seen.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:54
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The_White_Crane posted:... that's the most pointless spoiler tag I've ever seen. Some folks in this thread may not have read the book. It's not the biggest spoiler, but it's still a spoiler.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:56
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The placement of the tag makes it obvious that the spoilered character is an s tho
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Mar 16, 2019 22:57
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Screaming Idiot posted:Some folks in this thread may not have read the book. It's not the biggest spoiler, but it's still a spoiler. 
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Mar 16, 2019 22:59
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Make it possible to report your posts.
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Mar 16, 2019 22:59
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Also, like, Even knowing the spoiler in question, wouldn't it be more respectful to refer to Jackrum as a man? It's literally how he wants to be known.
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Mar 16, 2019 23:02
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The_White_Crane posted:... that's the most pointless spoiler tag I've ever seen. Tied with Ladies Night
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Mar 16, 2019 23:06
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Snow Cone Capone posted:Also I've only ever read Eric in standard novel form and that was kind a chore despite how short it is. Unseen Academicals feels like it would have fared better if it had come earlier in the series, back when he was doing things like Moving Pictures. On a personal level, it also didn't help that it was about a topic that I have little familiarity with. Snuff to me just felt way too heavy-handed with it's message about fantasy racism. I also remember feeling it was kind of tiresome to get through, since it seemed to retread a lot of ground with Vimes without bringing in much new. Raising Steam was just a slog. I remember becoming exasperated at one point when it felt like he was trying to just cram in every character possible (looking at you, Vetinari) just for the sake of having them there.
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Mar 16, 2019 23:09
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Arist posted:Moving Pictures can't be the worst because it introduced Ridcully. And Detritus! Regarding what order to read in, I find a chart helps. 
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