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So yeah, I finally decided I'm doing this. edit March 25: Chapter 1 done!! edit April 6: Chapter 2 done!! edit April 16: Chapter 3 done!! edit April 26: Chapter 4 done!! edit May 10: Chapter 5+6 done!! edit May 12: Chapter 7 done!! edit May 13: Chapter 8 done!! September 23: Chapter 9 done!! [adapted from japanese wikipedia] quote:"The Decagon House Murders" is Ayatsuji Yukito's debut mystery novel. It was published in 1987 and spawned many sequels collectively known as the "Mansion Series." The novel had an enormous impact on the Japanese mystery movement, giving rise to a shin-honkaku boom [this essentially means the contemporary fair-play mystery genre]. The influence is so great that the period after this novel was released is often referred to as the "post-Ayatsuji" period. It has sold over a million copies. The length is apparently 290 print pages of Japanese (I'm using an ebook), which I'd estimate equals about an average length mystery. I got through between a third and half the novel before the amount of plot details and vital clues became so dense that I simply couldn't continue without going back and writing stuff down (I did make a crime-wall of sorts, but I wasn't nearly thorough enough and it quickly became too much to organize on one wall). But then I was like, if I'm gonna organize my thoughts, why not post them and share the mystery-solving fun with other goons? Note: for reasons of personal opinion, I'm not gonna be using the English translation published by whatever I don't care enough to look up the publisher. Instead, I'm going to entirely retranslate the novel from scratch, and post that here in full, in addition to my "let's read" thoughts. Why? Well I really don't want to waste too much time in this thread ranting about how bad and disrespectful the official translation of this novel is. I'll type up a succinct summary of the problems in spoiler tags though for those who are wondering "Why bother?" Ayatsuji's prose may be analytical, and mainly serves the purpose of providing clues, but it is also beautiful and has an amazing flow to it. And the translator absolutely demolishes any voice it had, in lieu of boringly stating the meaning of the sentences with no sense of flow whatsoever (though, granted, the rote meanings are correct most of the time). And the dialogue is even worse! Yes, Ayatsuji made the dialogue pretty analytical and it also mainly serves to provide more clues, but the characters have freakin' voices! Which, it seems to me, the translator didn't even try to adapt respectfully. I've legitimately cared for some of these characters over very minute, subtle characterizations, and when I open the English text to compare, it feels like he dropped them into a blender. A further problem is he uses such an obnoxious, pretentious vocabulary sometimes that clashes really hard with the bad prose and is just, bleh. I think he does it to sound more like Agatha Christie or something, but the Japanese text generally goes out of its way to be clear, so even if it wasn't a huge eyesore, using obsolete terms and poo poo just confuses the reader unnecessarily. I've legit read passages of the English text right after reading/understanding the same passage in Japanese and been like "what the gently caress does that even mean?" But enough about the translation. I want this thread to be about the novel itself first and foremost, and the fun of solving a mystery! SO, WHY SHOULD I PLAY ALONG? If you're a fan of murder mystery stuff, chances are this book was written with you in mind. Heck, it seems like Ayatsuji was just like "Wow I really love all these Golden Age western mysteries I've been reading. Let me write a book that encapsulates everything I found fun about them." The pacing of how details are given out (and repeated) feels very very deliberate, though at the same time extremely generous. With the exception of stuff that is concealed for super obvious reasons, I never felt like anything was being purposely glossed over. It honestly strikes the perfect balance between always giving a satisfying amount of new details in a given chapter, but never so much that the plot feels like a slog. When stuff needs further examination, it always comes at a really great time pacing-wise, in my opinion. The characters generally discuss things very analytically, though again I'm gonna use the term "perfect balance" to describe how they still feel like real people despite very clearly acting as vessels to deliver clues to the reader. And they do so from the lens of mystery novels, so they'll often be discussing the exact theories that the reader would likely be having at that time. Which is understandably super fun! The mystery itself is also quite convoluted in the best ways. There are a ton of moving parts, but the deliberate pacing makes it feel not so overwhelming. I just really really like the story so far (from my position of slightly less than halfway in). I have also heard that the solution is excellent. Though who's to say before we finish it? Answer: NOT ANY OF YOU, THAT'S FOR SURE. Which segues nicely into my rules... Ground Rules: Regarding spoilers If you have read the novel before, or get intrigued by this thread and go read ahead in that crappy English translation, why am I assuming no one here reads Japanese? lol then honestly, you probably shouldn't post in this thread at all. Considering the genre, I'm sure you understand why even cheeky little "ohoho i see your theory" posts are toeing the line into spoilers. For the intent of this rule though, that still counts as spoilers. And obviously spoilers are strictly not allowed, not even in tags. Even stuff like "Indeed, the solution is good" posts will make me very nervous. And absolutely don't tell me the solution is bad, or any other adjective. Acceptable posts from goons who have read ahead/finished this novel may include the following: pointing out a translation that is inconsistent with objective truth without saying why (though honestly i'd rather you just pm me that); also any kind of commentary that is entirely separate from anything close to theorizing. For example, "I really like character X because he's funny." Use common sense, guys. If you hate a character for reasons that haven't come up yet, or for reasons that get worse later, don't post about it. Also, I'm fairly certain this won't apply to most of you, so I'm comfortable being annoying about it: if you at any point read or otherwise obtain knowledge about future events in this book, and you want to keep posting, I require you to disclose that. Honor System I obviously encourage theorizing, and yeah, maybe some people will be right. I am not going to get mad at you for being right. However, I am also highly aware that sometimes people who know stuff will pretend they don't, and post correct theories (read: spoilers) pretty much just for the sake of appearing smart and correct later. I implore you, DO NOT DO THAT. ~~~ Phew! But enough with the negativity! I'm going to end this by posting the relatively short prologue. I was originally planning to do chapter 1, part 1 also, because this is not very substantial, but this OP took a lot longer than I thought, so I don't have time right now. But I also don't want to wait before posting either. I think I want to put interstitial comments whenever I feel like sharing my thoughts, but for the prologue I don't really have any. I'll write my thoughts briefly at the end of it though. I actually translated this prologue a little bit ago as an exercise to compare with the "official" one, so this part isn't quite as "from scratch" as I advertised. Though I did heavily rewrite it in preparation for this post. Also, fun fact, it is exactly 1000 words. I didn't do it on purpose, but how insanely appropriate is it that it's 10x10 (x 10!) words, in the book about the 10-sided mansion? quote:Prologue I usually dislike prologues, but this completely does the job of setting the stage for what's to come, in a very reserved length. I never really thought about it before, but I do tend to like prologues better when they're not much longer than a television cold-open would be. Still, it manages to establish a really bleak tone, which to me serves to make this man's feelings... somehow a little bit understandable, even though we don't have any real details about his motivations at all. It also introduces some pretty heavy themes right off the bat. I'd say this is an excellent example of Ayatsuji's ability to use words frugally, though it's actually some of his wordiest (meanderingest?) prose, lol. Well, that's it for my intro. I hope this is something that people might be interested in. See you soon with the start of Chapter 1. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Sep 23, 2019 |
# ? Mar 16, 2019 10:39 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 08:06 |
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Definitely up for this. I like a good Japanese mystery novel, and I also like any time someone makes an effort to supplant a lackluster translation.
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# ? Mar 16, 2019 11:04 |
Oh this looks like it's going to be fun. Wow.
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# ? Mar 16, 2019 12:47 |
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Oh, I am so in for this! One slight concern though - OP is already translating a Japanese webcomic for GBS. I am afraid they might burn out.
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# ? Mar 16, 2019 13:15 |
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:One slight concern though - OP is already translating a Japanese webcomic for GBS. I am afraid they might burn out. I did consider this, but in all honesty, that webcomic takes practically zero effort lol. Maybe if someone takes me up on my offer to donate $1000 to Lowtax to make me post 600 panels in 2 weeks, I'd be worried. But I don't think anyone's gonna do that. But that's also why I didn't promise an explicit update schedule. Cuz in the past when I do that it tends to be... wrong. So I'll let my updates speak for themselves. Side note: I'm starting Chapter 1-1 now. I haven't even typed one word of translation or commentary yet, so let's see how much effort this will be. (in all likelihood I'll post it tonight)
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# ? Mar 17, 2019 03:00 |
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I am not great with solving mysteries, but I love reading them in spite of, or maybe because of, that. I expect to mostly admire the prose but maybe predict a thing or two.
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# ? Mar 17, 2019 03:22 |
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Lord Zedd-Repulsa posted:I expect to mostly admire the prose Quick note concerning the novel's title: honestly, I'd probably be a pedant and insist that the mansion be called something like "House of Ten Sides" or "Ten Sided House" because the pronunciation of it is stated (in furigana) to be slightly different than the actual way to pronounce the word for decagon. Well, technically it's not written the same way either, because the full word for decagon is [Ten] [Side] [Shape] More literally [Ten] [Point] [Shape], they technically count shapes by vertices rather than sides, but it's the same thing., while the name of the mansion is [Ten] [Side] [House]. BUT, from a cursory google search, it appears that the jpn collector's edition of the novel has the English title "The Decagon House Murders" on it, so whatever, I'm willing to concede that. Anyway... quote:Chapter One quote:1 I do want to keep discussion of translation to a minimum and basically pretend that this is a normal let's read, but it's probably going to be inevitable and I just want to mention the original first line cuz I really like the imagery, but couldn't make it sound not weird in English. He basically said that it was an "argument with mold growing on it" aka a "moldy argument". I thought that was too weird to open with, but I can always edit it in if y'all think it's better. quote:"That kinda pisses me off." Sitting on the side of the boat, Carr threw out his prominent chin and twisted his mouth into a frown. "I don't like it, Ellery. All your intellectualism crap. I'm fine with treating some mysteries as games, but listening to you preach intellectualism at every turn, it rubs me the wrong way." Okay so I didn't want to break up the flow of this scene with too much commentary, so I'll say it here. First of all, oof! I was sick today but I powered through to translate this all in one sitting. But that probably didn't affect me too much. And I'm sure that once I get an ear for the style of this in English, as well as, you know, typing in the SA box, I'll get faster. No way am I doing this every day though lol. Ideally, I'll do a bit each day for a comfortable several updates a week, but all I'll say for now is that if I don't update for a week then I'll make myself post no matter what. Like, I'll do what I did today. Honestly, the existence of a full translation available to you is a huge motivating factor in, like, not boring you guys. It's also a motivating factor to write good, but... heh, we'll see what you think I guess. Also, I practically didn't edit this once I finished, because I am very exhausted, so PM me about any errors (if you care that much lol) and I'll fix em. Also also, just as a side note, I've found that the chapter sections are pretty much all equally long. Like, it's really good at consistent lengths I think. So we won't have to worry about one being ridiculously long or disappointingly short or anything. Translation notes in spoiler tags just cuz I want to distance myself from "admitting" that this is my translation, heh... Horned Island: Tsunojima. It's probably obvious why I chose to translate the island's name, since they almost immediately reference the meaning of the name in the text. Something I feel it's important to say though is that the first part of the name is the same as the center character in the word for decagon, as well at the name of the building. Blue Mansion: Ao Yashiki. Well, this was an obvious choice because the building has such an obvious translation that sounds perfectly fine. But for completion's sake I want to make the real pronunciation of proper names available to you guys. So! Since we were just whirlwind introduced to a bunch of characters, let's talk about them! Ellery in particular is very fun to I like how Orczy is literally only characterized so far by a single throwaway line about being, I guess more skittish than the others? I mean, it's only fair. If you don't say anything, how can you expect the text to devote words to you? Well actually, Carr isn't characterized much more than Orczy is. btw I hope I get faster at typing Orczy's name soon Like, he's kind of just... offended at Ellery. And crude. Despite the fact that he said like maybe 10 words to Ellery, I think their dynamic is funny. And can I mention that I love when Carr starts ignoring Ellery and Ellery just turns to Leroux and keeps talking without missing a beat? Speaking of Leroux, well he has glasses. That's his character. No but seriously, at least we also know he gets along with Ellery. Agatha kind of seems like your stereotypical energetic tomboy. Poe, well, he smokes and he's pretty chill. His interaction with the fisherman is priceless, lol. He kind of reminds me of Kiryuu from the Yakuza series in a way... like, in the way he's very straight-forward in his answers and sets the fisherman up for a joke. Fisherman is literally a cookie-cutter Japanese fisherman, and his son barely had any screentime but he seems angsty. Veeeeerry broad strokes characterization at this point. Which I think is perfectly okay! To be honest, I feel like the six named characters have at the very least been thoroughly differentiated from each other, which is really valuable right away. And really, their only purpose is to be suspects anyway right? Another thing I like about this "chapter" is how it chunks up the little scenes without needing to do an asterisk break or whatever. We're kind of taken physically around the boat to the different conversations. Ok wow I probably have more to say but I am very tired so I will add more later if I think of it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on anything tho! I live for feedback so tell me I'm great and I'll probably post more lol. edit: Oh yeah I also think it's hilarious how they keep referring to that incident because it's like, of loving course there's a mysterious incident. It's so par for the course that let's not even dwell on the supposed drama of it. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Mar 25, 2019 |
# ? Mar 17, 2019 09:47 |
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onsetOutsider posted:I just want to mention the original first line cuz I really like the imagery, but couldn't make it sound not weird in English. He basically said that it was an "argument with mold growing on it" aka a "moldy argument". I thought that was too weird to open with, but I can always edit it in if y'all think it's better. "I know it's a stale old argument" is what I'd have gone with. onsetOutsider posted:Ellery, with a subtle smile on his lips, turned to face the small young man standing next to him; circular glasses adorned his smooth face. The way this sentence is structured implied to me at first that the glasses are worn by Ellery, but I assume it's actually Leroux, in which case I'd probably change it to: "Ellery, with a subtle smile on his lips, turned to face the small young man standing next to him, whose smooth face was adorned with circular glasses." onsetOutsider posted:He'd list off all kinds of obtuse technical terms and mathematical formulas that the reader is sure to not understand. Given the voice you've assigned to Ellery, that should probably be the proper "formulae". onsetOutsider posted:More than twenty years ago, a bizarre building called Blue Mansion was built on this island, and people lived there, but now it was once again a true uninhabited island. "and people lived there" feels like the wrong tense for this -- I'd go with "and people had lived there" --- Other than that pedantic nitpicking, this was all pretty good, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where it goes, and what that incident was.
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# ? Mar 18, 2019 11:30 |
The naming is interesting; they're obviously named after mystery writers but I can't for the life of me connect Emma Orczy with the genre. Significant or have I just missed a book somewhere? e: Never mind, she apparently wrote the Old Man in the Corner stories. My bad! e: It would be pretty funny if Ellery turned out to be two people, though. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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# ? Mar 18, 2019 17:48 |
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@white crane I made pretty much all your suggested edits. Thanks a bunch for helping out. Also, re: the "Ellery wearing glasses" thing, gosh darn it! That's exactly why I used a semicolon instead of a comma in that sentence! I guess it wasn't enough lol. (also expect an update in an hour or two)
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# ? Mar 19, 2019 04:34 |
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quote:2 quote:Upon reaching the top of the long, steep stairs, their field of vision instantly widened. With a field that had been thoroughly wrecked by the elements as its front lawn, a single-story building with white walls and a blue roof stood there as if waiting for them. * quote:Van lead the group through the entrance of Decagon House. TL notes in spoiler tags! Nakamura Seiji This name is altogether very normal, but it's worth noting that it contains the symbol for "blue". HMMMM. If I was going to localize the names like I'm 4kids or something, I think I'd call him Nick Blueford. Lol maybe I'll do that for all the names in the future. It's fun. There's a lot here that makes me highly suspicious -- not of the characters -- but of what kind of tricks the author is expecting to pull with these details about the house's layout. And I love how the kids are tempting fate with that whole "don't come back for a week" thing. Place bets on who's gonna die first Umm also stuff about Orczy! Eyy Ok I really want to say more words about substantial stuff, so that it looks like I'm justifying the let's read, but I really just want to get this update out so I can go watch youtube or something Please discuss. I'll be obsessively refreshing my bookmarks. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 11, 2019 |
# ? Mar 19, 2019 05:42 |
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Your prose is better in this one, IMO. Only one minor nitpick:onsetOutsider posted:"We'll be fine," Ellery answered, putting a hand on Poe's shoulder, who was sitting on his cheap backpack smoking a cigarette. I don't know if this is technically incorrect, and it's not really ambiguous, but to me that "putting a hand on Poe's shoulder, who was sitting on his cheap backpack" feels very unnatural, largely because the "who" directly follows the noun "shoulder" rather than the name "Poe", which isn't a natural way of phrasing things in English. I assume it's a byproduct of the Japanese syntax? It's been a long time since I studied Japanese, and I never did learn much. I'd have rendered it as "putting a hand on the shoulder of Poe, who was sitting on his cheap backpack" Now: Here's a floorplan of Decagon House as we know it: We should also remember that Van peered out of the room to the left of the entrance hall, so that is probably his bedroom, but it's worth noting that when he says "I went ahead and chose this one for myself" he merely "indicates one of the doors", and we don't get confirmation that it's the same one he peered out of. Also worth noting that as far as we know, anyone wanting to use the bathroom will have to pass through the main hall.
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# ? Mar 19, 2019 12:27 |
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Calling it now, someone is going to invite a victim into their room, murder them and then switch around the nameplates so it would seem like the victim was killed in another room.
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# ? Mar 19, 2019 12:34 |
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Calling it now, someone is going to invite a victim into their room, murder them and then switch around the nameplates so it would seem like the victim was killed in another room. This would only work until someone tries to leave the building lol. But I am just as suspicious as you over those nameplates.You (as an author) don't just do something like that for no reason. edit: @white crane I was actually wary of that line myself but I thought that "shoulder of Poe" would be just as awkward. If I was wrong about that then I'm happy to change it. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 19, 2019 |
# ? Mar 19, 2019 13:33 |
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Honestly they both sound a little awkward, but I'm not sure there's a way around it without more substantial rephrasing than you might want to do.quote:"Are you guys sure you don't want me to come check on you, even once? The phones're dead here, ya know." After the six stepped onto the dock, which was creaking a concerning amount, the fisherman followed after them. I mean, I'm obviously just going on your translation and not referring to the original text, but I'd probably have written that passage more like this: quote:The six of them stepped onto the dock, which creaked in a concerning manner. The fisherman followed after them. "Are you guys sure you don't want me to come check on you, even once? The phones're dead here, ya know." That's a much more liberal edit of the prose, obviously, but it conveys all the same information without really changing anything, save only that it might be considered to change Ellery's characterisation slightly, since he now actually gives the fisherman Poe's name which he didn't originally. It does also avoid the redundancy of having "putting a hand on Poe's shoulder" followed immediately by "Poe, the hairy man Ellery had indicated", which I think improves the flow. The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Mar 19, 2019 |
# ? Mar 19, 2019 14:11 |
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Yeah, your first example is good, and I think the only reason I didn't do it before is I'm self-conscious about any time I'm writing too many words for a relatively compact jpn sentence. It's a concern I should kick cuz there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I'm less inclined to do stuff like your second example, just cuz there's a distinct implication (I feel) that anything said in the narration can be taken as unequivical truth, whereas dialogue is just, you know, what someone said. That's also why I need to make sure I'm keeping stuff that's like, guessing about Orczy's motivations for wearing dark clothing, instead of stating for 100% fact that she is insecure of her weight. edit: wait lmao your first quote didnt change it at all. I'm actually dumb Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Mar 19, 2019 |
# ? Mar 19, 2019 14:21 |
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quote:"Are you guys sure you don't want me to come check on you, even once? The phones're dead here, ya know." After the six stepped onto the dock, which was creaking a concerning amount, the fisherman followed after them. I think this is a good compromise.
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# ? Mar 19, 2019 14:44 |
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onsetOutsider posted:I'm less inclined to do stuff like your second example, just cuz there's a distinct implication (I feel) that anything said in the narration can be taken as unequivical truth, whereas dialogue is just, you know, what someone said. That's also why I need to make sure I'm keeping stuff that's like, guessing about Orczy's motivations for wearing dark clothing, instead of stating for 100% fact that she is insecure of her weight. Yeah, I get that. I actually didn't think about that aspect of shifting the description of Poe's background from narration to dialogue, which was careless of me. I can especially understand you wanting to be conservative when it's a Fair Play Mystery, too, because that's a genre where it's especially important to make sure you don't introduce ambiguity or false clues to the reader. To some extent it's also a philosophical thing when it come to translation, wherever you personally think the balance lies between precisely converting the source text versus interpreting it into smooth prose in the target language. Edit: Yeah, your new version is much better. It's still a bit weird having that isolated "Poe was a fourth year medical student." floating there like that, but it's important information and you're right that it needs to be kept in narration.
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# ? Mar 19, 2019 14:45 |
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quote:3 * quote:Turning right after leaving Decagon House, to the north, was a row of pine trees. That row of trees broke off at a single point, where the branches of the black pines on either side came together in an arch overhead. The four passed through that arch and walked to the charred remains of Blue Mansion. Fig.1 "Floorplan of Decagon House" Fig.2 "Map of Horned Island" -- Alright, so we've been sufficiently infodumped about that incident. I've got a teensy hunch that it'll be extremely important to the current murders that are obviously nigh. Also, to be honest it would be one HECK of a reverse psychology misdirect if it turns out the gardener actually did do it lmao. For me, the weirdest part is that missing hand. Like, first of all why was it cut, and second of all why was it never found. Are those the same reason or...? I am also highly suspicious of those three knives. Actually, the way this author writes makes me suspicious of practically every single detail, because he's both super economical with scene length and also super thorough in his descriptions. Which make me think every single thing he goes out of his way to explain has to come back later. Is Agatha planning a murder and cleaning the dishes is part of the trick?? I don't knooowww! If we're playing by "it has to be a misdirect" rules, then Van and Carr are already out for ever having been alone and hence suspicious, and hence not the culprit. And kind of same with Ellery for them literally saying how much he sure would love it if a murder happened. But I have a feeling Mr. Ayatsuji is doing all of that poo poo on purpose. P.S. White Crane, you did a really admirable job drafting up a floorplan! I feel kinda bad that you didn't know the text provides one for us! For what it's worth though, I was really glad to see that you took the effort to make one, and also that the description was sufficient for you to independently make practically an identical floorplan, minus some details. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 02:51 on May 11, 2019 |
# ? Mar 20, 2019 05:55 |
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I actually almost posted last night hoping the book came with a map of Decagon House because I'm really bad at mentally picturing directions and layouts. Right now I'm equally fascinated by the story and the editing discussion you two are having, so I may not have much else to say until more plot happens.
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# ? Mar 20, 2019 09:58 |
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onsetOutsider posted:Van leaned against the door to his room, pulled out a Seven Star from the pocket of his ivory down vest, and held it in his mouth. Then he looked over the dim decagonal hall once again. onsetOutsider posted:"Thanks. ---So it must've been a lot of trouble bringing up all the blankets and everything." onsetOutsider posted:"No, they're left over. Three knives too. The cutting boards were all moldy though." Again, I assume it's a byproduct of the original Japanese, but those two short "Then Agatha left her room"/"Then Orczy walked in" feel very unnatural in English. I'd change the first one to: "Nicely done, Van." Agatha emerged from her room with her long hair done up in a scarf. "I thought the room would be way grodier. ---Did I hear you say coffee? I'll make some for everybody." The phrasing "left her room" is something that you'd normally use if the scene was being viewed from a perspective inside the room she was leaving. You could also say "entered the hall" instead of "emerged from her room", in this case. And to second to: "Orczy walked in with a nervous gait." The use of "then" in the original isn't wrong, but it's odd. It implies a relationship between the events immediately before the sentence and those described in the sentence, and I think the sentence looks more natural without it. Other than that, this one was all great. onsetOutsider posted:P.S. White Crane, you did a really admirable job drafting up a floorplan! I feel kinda bad that you didn't know the text provides one for us! For what it's worth though, I was really glad to see that you took the effort to make one, and also that the description was sufficient for you to independently make practically an identical floorplan, minus some details. Eh, it only took me a minute. And I'm glad the one provided clears up the issue of where Van's room actually is. onsetOutsider posted:"I believe it was early on September twentieth. The residence of Nakamura Seiji on Horned Island, also known as Blue Mansion, had gone up in flames and burned to the ground. In the wreckage, they discovered Nakamura Seiji with his wife Kazue, as well as the live-in servant couple, for a total of four corpses," Ellery explained dispassionately. "Large doses of sleeping medication were detected in all of the bodies, and it was determined that the causes of death were not all the same. The servant couple were in their own room, bound with rope and then struck in the head with an axe. Seiji, the head of the household, was drenched in kerosene and obviously burned to death. And discovered in the same room as him, the wife Kazue was evidently strangled to death with a cord-shaped weapon. Furthermore, the left arm of her corpse was severed below the wrist. And that hand was never discovered anywhere in the wreckage. I think it's worth noting that the manner of Seiji's death could have been suicide. It would be a horrible way to go, but self-immolation has precedent in Japan. The presence of sleeping medication in his body as well as the others tells against it, but doesn't rule it out -- he could have taken the pills then burned himself before they took effect. I think you're also right that the missing hand seems like the strangest part of the murder. The fact that it was never found gives a strong implication that the murderer took it with them. I find myself wondering about wedding rings or engagement rings; they would be found on the left hand, and I can easily imagine that if the killer wanted them and found they couldn't easily pull them off the finger they might just chop off the hand in their haste. Also, if everyone was dosed with sleeping medication, why were the servants tied up? Did the killer wake them so they could be interrogated, perhaps?
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# ? Mar 20, 2019 11:38 |
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I read this back in 2016 in the English translation. I'm really enjoying watching this unfold, and will be watching with interest.
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# ? Mar 20, 2019 14:48 |
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The_White_Crane posted:Again, I assume it's a byproduct of the original Japanese, but those two short "Then Agatha left her room"/"Then Orczy walked in" feel very unnatural in English. I did this because both of them were introduced with そこに (soko ni) which is both really curt and gives the impression of like "at that exact moment, X happened." However, the final gospel is whether it sounds good in English, so it must be changed. Somehow though, I feel like something's missing by just taking away the "then" like there's no transition at all. I'll think about it.
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# ? Mar 20, 2019 17:13 |
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onsetOutsider posted:I did this because both of them were introduced with そこに (soko ni) which is both really curt and gives the impression of like "at that exact moment, X happened." However, the final gospel is whether it sounds good in English, so it must be changed. Somehow though, I feel like something's missing by just taking away the "then" like there's no transition at all. I'll think about it. If you used it for only one of those two sentences, "at that moment" would actually sound more natural to me than "then". The second one with Orczy in particular, would work quite well IMO: "At that moment, Orczy walked in with a nervous gait." Or "As he spoke, Orczy walked in with a nervous gait." perhaps. The problem is that "then" doesn't usually imply simultaneity, but rather subsequency. "I walked into the room. Then the vase fell over." implies that the walking is finished before the vase falls. "As I walked into the room, the vase fell over." makes the two events simultaneous. Edit: another problem is that as I understand it, Japanese writing contains a lot more repetition than English writing, so you can get away with repeated phrases without it sounding unnatural. In English though, if you were to preface two sentences that close together with "at that moment", it would feel stilted. The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 20, 2019 |
# ? Mar 20, 2019 17:31 |
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@white crane Well it didn't feel repetetive because in the original they occurred in different parts of the sentence. Also I feel like the Orczy sentence is somehow entirely fixed by switching two words. "Orczy then walked in with a nervous gait." And I can put "at that moment" on the Agatha sentence. I sort of feel you wrt the point about repetition, but a lot of that is also on me. For example jpn has SO many ways of coloring the verb 笑う which covers the entire spectrum of laughing/smiling. So basically all of the multiple "smirks" and "grins" and "snickers" deserved entirely different words every single time but there simply aren't enough words in English. That also applies to quite a lot of transition words, like the number of ways to establish contrast or form condiionals is wayyy larger than English. Interestingly I was also having trouble in the 2nd update with all of the different words for "steep" that were used. In the description of the island I don't think the same word was ever used twice but I ended up having to say "steep" like five times.
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# ? Mar 20, 2019 21:10 |
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quote:4 * quote:At the remains of Blue Mansion, Ellery, Leroux, and Van remained. Poe had wandered off alone into the woods bordering the ruins. * quote:The forest path behind Decagon House--- * quote:"Before we eat, listen up." Wearing a slim pair of lensless glasses with gold frames, Ellery addressed everyone. "Next term's editor-in-chief would like your attention, please." SCENE BY SCENE COMMENTS Agatha, your first line is wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to start. You made Leroux carry your bags for you, Van offered to make coffee first before you barged in, and then you're the one who insisted on washing the dishes! Maybe you're just making girl-talk with Orczy but geez girl, get it together! Okay, it'll take a lot to convince me that Orczy isn't experiencing lesbian angst here. Speaking of, I feel kind of insecure about my writing in that Orczy/Agatha scene. It's our first look into Orczy's mind and the text has a ton of delicacy but I keep feeling like I couldn't get it to sound quite right. But if I keep staring at it I'll never get the update done, so... --- Important to remember: the Japanese school year starts in April. That would make this, I guess, their between-years break (equivalent of summer vacation). I'm assuming their given years are what they're about to start, since otherwise, like, Poe would have already graduated lol. That also means that a "New Year's party" is also like an "end of school party". Just stuff to keep in the back of your mind. --- Everyone else gets a single random mention of their field of study, but for Poe it's BY THE WAY HE'S A MEDICAL STUDENT every chapter lol. Not only that but we've been reminded several times that he's a senior. --- With this exposition about the name inheritance, it's pretty clear that the mystery club is more than just a reason for the main characters to poke the fourth wall. poo poo is probably gonna get complicated there... --- (edit: oh yeah, so now Poe has also been alone, and it wasn't explicitly stated but let's not forget that Orczy was also alone while Agatha went to fetch people for lunch, and Agatha technically could have done any nefarious poo poo on her way over. So the ONLY one who hasn't been blatantly allowed room to be suspicious is Leroux. and maybe, maybe Ellery) As always, please alert me to any embarrassing typoes I may have missed. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Mar 26, 2019 |
# ? Mar 23, 2019 13:23 |
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onsetOutsider posted:As the name "Cat Island" suggests, it looked as if some huge, black beast were crouching in the ocean. That should probably be "suggested", given the tense of the rest of the sentence. onsetOutsider posted:"Before we eat, listen up." Wearing a slim pair of lensless glasses with gold frames, Ellery addressed everyone. "Next term's editor-in-chief would like your attention, please Lensless glasses? Literally just glasses frames? Or do they have glass in but just flat and non-magnifying? (Also, this is another one of those sentences where the syntax is weird in English, because you generally don't use a passive verb like "wear" in the form "Verbing a noun, Person verbed." That structure is usually kept for more active things: Effectively, if the past-tense version of a verb implies a continuing action, like "he held the tray of cookies" or "he wore a black stetson", it sounds weird in that sentence structure, whereas if the past tense implies a discrete action "he waved a red banner" or "he broke the willow twig" then it works more naturally: "Holding the gun, John shouted." versus "Waving the gun, John shouted.") Content: Cigarettes! I note that we've now been explicitly told that Poe smokes Larks, Ellery smokes Salem Menthols, and Van smokes Seven Stars. This is totally gonna be relevant. Also both Leroux and Ellery wear glasses of some kind, with Ellery's being "lensless" and gold framed and Ellery's being circular. The fact that Ellery's are lensless (whatever that exactly means) presumably implies that his vision is fine, which might also be important. Leroux' luggage was "weirdly bulky", which Agatha ascribes to the writing paper, but could hide a multitude of sins. Interesting. Very interested to see where this goes.
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# ? Mar 25, 2019 16:41 |
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quote:5 * quote:When the sun set, an antique oil lamp was lit in the center of the decagonal table. Van had brought it, hearing that the electricity was cut. In each of the rooms other than the main hall, thick candles were liberally arranged. CHAPTER 1 DONE!! I hope you enjoyed this installment of "kids talk about random crap for a while". I've gotta say, I did not (when I first read it) expect the chapter to end with such a rambling montage of basically completely random, seemingly irrelevant subjects. I mean, we went from a (all things considered) pretty random American horror movie, to which plants are featured in classical Japanese poetry, to myths about the moon. I can't even begin to fathom at this point how all of these things could possibly be relevant enough to justify taking up this much space, when Ayatsuji has established pretty strongly that he has no intention of wasting time/words. In another book I might write it off as a weird diatribe (or, well, a whole heap of diatribes), but because of this book's reputation I will trust him, and therefore continue to be super concerned for what kind of crazy puzzles we're gonna be faced with that requires this random crap to be established here. Also, a whole heck load of time was spent on that card trick as well. It's almost like this entire section was Ayatsuji making GBS threads all over his own pacing, and I'm just waiting w bated breath for it to come back into play so I can understand what this was all about. Oh yeah, shout-out to wikipedia for making poo poo easier for me sometimes lol. Also note: I'm not loving smart, I had to look poo poo up for all that history talk. Really though all you need to know is that those are books of poetry, and maybe compare the years on them. Recommended reading is the sanpaku article though because there's some interesting implications there. I'll quote the main bit here, a quote from some expert on superstitions or something: "For thousands of years, people of the Far East have been looking into each other's eyes for signs of this dreaded condition. Any sign of sanpaku meant that a man's entire system — physical, physiological and spiritual — was out of balance. He had committed sins against the order of the universe and he was therefore sick, unhappy, insane, what the West has come to call "accident prone". The condition of sanpaku is a warning, a sign from nature, that one's life is threatened by an early and tragic end." Watch out there Carr. I don't want you to die before you get any character development! You can't just be an rear end in a top hat, right? Ah, one more thing, I spent a really long time trying to find sources for the Sanskrit thing, and huzzah! I finally did! Also here is a way vaguer but super old and scholarly source which at the very least connects the sound "shashin" with rabbits, sort of. Alright, that's enough nerdy poo poo for one post. Next up will be the start of chapter 2 @white crane: aagh, I just put preview to check over the next update and you've posted like RIGHT when I was about to! Guess I'll use this space to reply to you also lol. I went back and checked the word for the lensless glasses and then looked it up on google images (an indispensable translation tool btw), and it turns out they could have plain glass or empty holes, the word isn't specifically one or the other. I kind of assumed it meant there was no glass which is why I said lensless, but maybe "fashion glasses" would be more accurate, tho it kind of sounds stupider. Oh yeah also my nitpicky friend wanted me to mention that she approves of your grammar corrections lol. Also in general thanks for being my partner in crime, almost :P Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Mar 26, 2019 |
# ? Mar 25, 2019 16:53 |
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onsetOutsider posted:Since the sky was nearing full darkness, the main hall of Deacagon House was awash in very dim lighting. Whoops. onsetOutsider posted:I've gotta say, I did not (when I first read it) expect the chapter to end with such a rambling montage of basically completely random, seemingly irrelevant subjects. I mean, we went from a (all things considered) pretty random American horror movie, to which plants are featured in classical Japanese poetry, to myths about the moon. I can't even begin to fathom at this point how all of these things could possibly be relevant enough to justify taking up this much space, when Ayatsuji has established pretty strongly that he has no intention of wasting time/words. In another book I might write it off as a weird diatribe (or, well, a whole heap of diatribes), but because of this book's reputation I will trust him, and therefore continue to be super concerned for what kind of crazy puzzles we're gonna be faced with that requires this random crap to be established here. Yeah, that's a very odd scene. Takeaways: 1) Ellery is good at sleight of hand. 2) Leroux potentially learned about it from him. 3) Poe has fishing equipment. 4) Van is ill (poisoned?) or faking being ill. He locked his door, which seems like an odd thing to bother with. 5) Carr mocks Van for locking his door, possibly trying to discourage other people from doing it? onsetOutsider posted:@white crane: aagh, I just put preview to check over the next update and you've posted like RIGHT when I was about to! Guess I'll use this space to reply to you also lol. I went back and checked the word for the lensless glasses and then looked it up on google images (an indispensable translation tool btw), and it turns out they could have plain glass or empty holes, the word isn't specifically one or the other. I kind of assumed it meant there was no glass which is why I said lensless, but maybe "fashion glasses" would be more accurate, tho it kind of sounds stupider. Oh yeah also my nitpicky friend wanted me to mention that she approves of your grammar corrections lol. Also in general thanks for being my partner in crime, almost :P You're welcome. Thanks for being such a good sport about my constant pedantry, and I'm glad to have a fellow nitpicker's approval! Re the glasses, I'd expect it to be more likely that they have plain glass, since that's fairly common for fashion accessories, whereas empty frames would look very weird. The reason I asked was because it seems like something that could come up in the future, with them possibly getting broken and there being/not being glass at the scene, and I wondered if it would be relevant, though obviously you wouldn't want to reveal that in advance...
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# ? Mar 25, 2019 17:56 |
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The_White_Crane posted:The reason I asked was because it seems like something that could come up in the future, with them possibly getting broken and there being/not being glass at the scene, and I wondered if it would be relevant, though obviously you wouldn't want to reveal that in advance. I'm not dodging spoilers, I just actually have no idea lol. I'm not saying exactly what I don't know because even knowing what there's a *lack* of between now and the end of chapter 4 (where I paused) would be spoiling. No I'm not gonna tell you whether someone dies by then (i'm not gonna read ahead until I translate the first 4 chapters. Cuz at that point I want to be able to give my unfiltered thoughts w/o any future knowledge. And also, like, I don't want to have to read the entire thing twice lol. It'll be rly fun for me once I catch up I think.) I think I can say w confidence though that if the glass part of Ellery's glasses will be in any way relevant, then it'll be explicitly specified at some point. Simply the fact that they were brought up (and have gold frames rather than Leroux's silver frames) makes me think something will happen. But like, every detail makes me think that and there's no way it'll ALL be used to solve a murder....... right? Oh also I forgot to mention that I do know how Ellery did that card trick. It's really not that hard to figure out. Well, granted I've had almost the exact same trick done to me before but the production of it was way worse so I figured it out instantly.
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# ? Mar 25, 2019 20:04 |
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quote:Chapter Two quote:1 * quote:"---Ah, is this the Higashi residence? Um, I'm a student at K University. Is Hajime there?" Okay, so the post-chapter break is done and I'm updating again. I'm definitely not gonna do this every time, but I was getting tired and it was a convenient time to take a break. To be honest, I was considering doing section 2 in this update too because this is kind of a relatively short update, but since it's introducing an entirely different "side" of the story, and also establishing elements that may put the main cast's actions in a different light, I figured it's enough. But yeah I'm going back to 3-ish times a week update schedule. It was at this point in reading that I truly started to feel scared for how complex the puzzles will be in this novel, and the reason is the names. The -minami part of Kawaminami's name is both written and pronounced like the word for "south". Higashi (which is one of the guys on the island if you didn't catch that) is written and pronounced like the word for "east" and his given name Hajime is written with the symbol for the number one. ALL THREE OF THESE THINGS ARE ALSO MAHJONG TILES BY THE WAY. Maybe I'm thinking too much into it, but the fact that the "east coast" or "south coast" etc of the island are referenced a bunch, and the mention of mahjong, makes me super scared for the extent of the puzzles later. Like, idfk how this stuff would be incorporated into a mystery but still. This is also revealing that the true names of the other 6 island kids will probably also be relevant, and we might have to piece together the names with the students. More explicitly though, we have 2 major reveals in this section. The mysterious letters, and Chiori's death. Both of them have huge implications, but I don't know exactly what they're implications of. It's all pretty crazy and hopefully you'll start to realize soon why I felt the need to go back and reread/write the entire thing down in English. Cuz it doesn't stop being like this. the published translation translated "third party" as "after-after-party" every single time which is so drat stupid and makes me very angry at how bad it sounds. Yeah, it was difficult to think of something that isn't a mouthful, and "third party of the night" isn't perfect, but it's goddamn better than goddamn after-after-party lol. Another note which confuses me slightly, is the specification that Kawaminami is a 3rd year 4th year next month, meaning what I guessed about everyone's years is wrong. That doesn't affect much except for I'm confused about Poe. I guess he's going to start a graduate program next month? Cuz as far as I know, Japanese university is 4 years. If someone knows better, please correct me. So, like, I hope people are enjoying this besides just White Crane (i love you tho wc) and the couple peeps who posted to tell me theyre lurking. I know there's no real murder to rly have fun solving yet (at least not one happening in the present), but it's definitely already throwing tons of puzzle pieces at us. I'm not sure how many of them fit together yet, but this is what we'll have to work with as foundation once the murders start, so don't brush it off. I'm pretty sure we're gonna be referencing the pre-murder chapters quite a lot in the course of trying to solve them. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Apr 7, 2019 |
# ? Mar 30, 2019 09:25 |
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Now poo poo's starting to get interesting. If the mysteries revolve around mahjong (is it one word or two? I've seen both), though, I'm hosed because I've never been able to make sense of the game and might have to change that. As far as names go, Hajime can also be written as "beginning" and Wikipedia lists other kanji with readings along similar lines. If there's one thing Japan loves, it's hidden meanings in character names so could you share how the ones we know so far are written and try to offer that as we readers learn them?
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# ? Mar 30, 2019 09:49 |
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Lord Zedd-Repulsa posted:If there's one thing Japan loves, it's hidden meanings in character names so could you share how the ones we know so far are written and try to offer that as we readers learn them? I've been trying to mention the parts that stood out to me, but yeah I can give the full run-down so you're in the loop. Keep in mind that I have no idea what kinds of associations jpn readers might make with certain common names. I can really only notice what's not a normal kanji to see in names, or what's a weird pronunciation. Nakamura: This family name is overwhelmingly average in both writing and pronunciation, so I doubt we'll find any clues in here, but for the sake of completion I'll explain how it's written. [naka] is a very very common word meaning "inside" and stuff that's abstractly tied to the concept of inside-ness but that's the case for literally every kanji that's not a straightforward noun. [mura] is also a very very common word meaning "town/village". Seiji: [sei] is written with the kanji for "blue" (same as the one used in his creation, Blue Mansion, tho it's pronounced differently there), and has a normal pronunciation in the name. It is also associated with youth, and paleness (like pale skin may be described as "blue"). The [ji] part is just used in a lot of words concerning leadership, and it's also used a loooot in names. All it makes me think is that in-universe his parents wanted him to have leadership qualities. Kazue: This is super common writing of a super common name. The first symbol is mainly used in words meaning "peace" and peaceful stuff, though I also just see it a lot in women's names. The only thing that might stand out to me about this name is that the second symbol is the same as the word for "branches" that was used in reference to the pine trees on the island. Chiori: Another very typical pronunciation and writing. [chi] simply means a thousand, or just like all big numbers it's also sometimes used to just mean "many" but not that often cuz there are bigger numbers to use. [ori] is used to refer to textile weaving and stuff, and in one or two common words it's used abstractly for stuff like organizational structures. I don't really see a meaning there. Kawaminami: His name is weird for being pronounced as just the flat out words "river south" instead of the alternate pronunciations which are what's usually used in names. I'm pretty sure any Japanese person would try to read his name as Kounan at first. Notably, the "river" part of his name is not written like the common word for river (which is pronounced kawa), but it's all but exclusively reserved for official names of very specific large rivers. Most importantly though (maybe?) is that it's one of the kanji in the word for "inlet" used a lot when talking about Horned Island. Takaaki: Very typically pronounced/written surname. [taka] I've barely seen at all outside of names, but according to my dictionary I guess it has to do with respecting your elders. the [aki] means light/brightness. Pretty straightforward. (edit: actually I'm pretty sure this is his given name since it's written 2nd when he's introduced, but he's always referred to as Kawaminami in the text, so shrug) Higashi Hajime: This name is really stupid for being a full name that's a collective 2 whole kanji long. It also does the same thing as Kawaminami's name and gets pronounced as actual words. "East first" by pronunciation, or "east one" by writing. (edit: I also want to point out the only reason I "know" Hajime is a boy is because of the honorifics Kawaminami used about him when talking to his mother. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would talk to a mother about her daughter and use -kun, but in the extremely unlikely event that Hajime turns out to be one of the girls, don't crucify me lol) I'll do this from now on for new characters. Remind me if I miss any. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Mar 30, 2019 |
# ? Mar 30, 2019 10:50 |
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I'm really enjoying the story. Carr seems to have issues with booze. Chiori died of alcohol poisoning. I wonder if there's a connection. On the other hand, speaking of poisoning, we have Agatha who studies pharmacology. And is Orczy's ring significant in any way? Maybe, it belonged to Chiory?
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# ? Mar 30, 2019 14:51 |
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In this update, we get namedropped real places for the first time. If it's not too annoying, I'm gonna link photos from google images so you guys can better visualize the settings (I did that for a bunch of other things too). I'll also arrange them all on a map of Japan for you at the end of the update, along with estimates of where places like O City and S Town might be.quote:2 * quote:Kawaminami was lead to a tatami room inside. -------- Photos of real places! Kamegawa Station Kannawa Mount Tsurumi Maps! I circled where Kannawa generally is, and I put dots at the most likely coasts to depart from, based on the fact that it's approximately 40km from there. (also O City should be real close to the coast near Kannawa) Kawaminami's path to Koujirou's house was probably something like this. edit: I forgot to do the new names! Koujirou: the [jirou] part of this is so un-noteworthy that I'm not gonna bother talking about it. there are a billion names that end with that sound written like this. The [kou] however is interesting. It's not *the* word for red, that you'd use normally, but it is *a* word for red. Like a deep, rich red. The point is it contrasts with Seiji's "blue" name so idk what that's about. Shimada: again the [da] part is literally at the end of a hundred billion names, but the [shima] part would make anybody's sensors go off. Cuz it is literally the word for "island" lol. Kiyoshi: Apparently this is Shimada's given name? This is another case of the narration using his surname cuz I guess none of his family will ever be named in the novel. This kanji is associated with cleanliness (spiritual and physical) and manliness. Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 31, 2019 |
# ? Mar 30, 2019 19:11 |
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Just want to chime in and say I'm enjoying this thread so far. Reminds me an awful lot of the old The Butler Did It thread, where incidentally one of the books we solved was Christie's And Then There Were None (aka Ten Little Indians).
Hobnob fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Mar 31, 2019 |
# ? Mar 31, 2019 00:17 |
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This seems like a very interesting thread! I shall do my best to read along but I make no guarantees about my skill as a mystery solver.
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# ? Mar 31, 2019 00:47 |
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This is a cool story and I trust my Danganronpa experience will serve me well here. I bet Leroux will be first to die. I'm basing this on their ages, which I am assuming correspond with their enrolled years in school. Can't kill Orczy first because of the gender ratio imbalance. Refresher on their school class years: Orczy - 2nd year literature Leroux - 2nd year literature Carr - 3rd year law Ellery - 3rd year law Agatha - 3rd year pharmacology Van - 3rd year science Poe - 4th year medicine Kawaminami - 3rd year Chiori - 1 year below Kawaminami = 2nd year, if she were alive
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# ? Mar 31, 2019 16:38 |
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v good thread. will be happily reading along
take the moon fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 31, 2019 |
# ? Mar 31, 2019 16:54 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 08:06 |
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this got mentioned in enkidel saga discord and looks cool, i'll keep an eye on this
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# ? Mar 31, 2019 18:53 |