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Phylodox posted:Marketing. I think you are missing the point that the USAF gave the film material and financial support in exchange for the use of the film in recruitment marketing
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Apr 8, 2019 02:00
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Phylodox posted:Marketing. Promotional Marketing to me is more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CcGvknDbIE Military Propaganda to me is more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b8rukjThTs
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Apr 8, 2019 02:07
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Helpful reminder that any movie using us military equipment does so under licensing from the us military which has partial creative control over the story of the film
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Apr 8, 2019 02:09
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I think you are missing the point that the USAF gave the film material and financial support in exchange for the use of the film in recruitment marketing And yet the film itself remains explicitly anti-war. That’s the text of the film. Captain Marvel the film, in and of itself, isn’t military propaganda. The fact that the military used it as a recruitment tool and people bought it doesn’t change that, it just means that the actual movie itself was immaterial to both the military and the people who they were trying to recruit. The military probably could use scenes from Full Metal Jacket taken out of context and successfully use them to recruit people. That’s marketing.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:11
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Phylodox posted:The military probably could use scenes from Full Metal Jacket taken out of context and successfully use them to recruit people. That’s marketing. Full Metal Jacket wasnt made under endorsement of the us military
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Apr 8, 2019 02:13
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Phylodox posted:And yet the film itself remains explicitly anti-war. That’s the text of the film. Captain Marvel the film, in and of itself, isn’t military propaganda. The fact that the military used it as a recruitment tool and people bought it doesn’t change that, it just means that the actual movie itself was immaterial to both the military and the people who they were trying to recruit. The military probably could use scenes from Full Metal Jacket taken out of context and successfully use them to recruit people. That’s marketing. Would you agree that Captain Marvel, the film, was used as militarist propaganda?
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Apr 8, 2019 02:14
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"Would you say that captain marvel had girl power?" "would you say captain marvel effectively leveraged girl power into recruiting for the us military?"
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Apr 8, 2019 02:25
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teagone posted:Would you agree that Captain Marvel, the film, was used as militarist propaganda? No, I wouldn’t. They didn’t use the film, they co-opted some of its scenes and iconography. They piggybacked on its marketing junket. The message of the actual film is almost entirely divorced from the message of that marketing. I think it’s just plain disingenuous to call the movie itself military propaganda. I think a film is more than just the isolated scenes some marketing guy decides to use to leverage synergy and sell product. It deserves to be taken on its own merits and judged accordingly.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:26
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Phylodox posted:No, I wouldn’t. They didn’t use the film, they co-opted some of its scenes and iconography. They piggybacked on its marketing junket. The message of the actual film is almost entirely divorced from the message of that marketing. The USAF had a say in the creative process of the film and could dictate terms in how they were portrayed in the film in exchange for access to equipment. You keep ignoring that the USAF helped make the film. The text itself is compromised. The USAF didnt take from the film, the USAF had a part in making it
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Apr 8, 2019 02:28
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The movie Captain Marvel depicts the U.S. military and its alien analogs as misogynistic, male-dominated organizations in which women are given no important work and considered expendable sex objects who can't be trusted in the same way a male can. This is surface-level text, not subtext; about the only thing that's even remotely challenging at all is picking up on the Israel/Palestine subplot. It's not terribly surprising that the Pentagon conceivably missed both and agreed to cross-market. This is not to say that the military funding movies is not a thing we should be unconcerned with. Meanwhile, around every corner lurks another woman telling you that maybe film criticism should have more minority voices, even if the white male-dominated critic circuit gives your movie good reviews. This was RLM's argument; that it didn't matter who was giving the Captain Marvel reviews, because the reviews were good. The mental gymnastics necessary for them to get there are embarrassing. Three white guys, who mostly discuss dreck and never deal with films more complex than a Verhoeven satire, could make room for voices less jaded and self-loathing. The film industry is not making movies just for white dudes, so it may be helpful to actually get some more critics who aren't white dudes. People like to pretend that they're with it on women and minority issues until the chips are down, and then the excuses and tone arguments start.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The USAF had a say in the creative process of the film and could dictate terms in how they were portrayed in the film in exchange for access to equipment. Okay, then how is the film, divorced from the ad campaign, pro-military? It depicts the Air Force as an exclusionary boy’s club. Its main character learns to ignore her military conditioning and actually sits down and listens to her supposed enemy, eventually siding with them over the militaristic hegemony that trained her. If the Air Force was trying strongarm the makers of Captain Marvel into making a propaganda film, they didn’t do a very good job.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:33
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Phylodox posted:Okay, then how is the film, divorced from the ad campaign, pro-military? It depicts the Air Force as an exclusionary boy’s club. Its main character learns to ignore her military conditioning and actually sits down and listens to her supposed enemy, eventually siding with them over the militaristic hegemony that trained her. If the Air Force was trying strongarm the makers of Captain Marvel into making a propaganda film, they didn’t do a very good job. It made the military of the past look like a sexist boys club. The entire subtext is that wow look how cool it is to be a fighter pilot and how honorable and cool fighter pilots are and its empowering that women now get to be fighter pilots unlike in the past. Its condemning it's own past to make its present more appealing
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Apr 8, 2019 02:35
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You can make the argument that, because of the promotion that was marketed towards little girls, the film itself contains the message that influences those little girls to "rise up" and show the military what they're made of, to have the same courage as Carol Danvers and fight back. In other words, this:ungulateman posted:"Would you say that captain marvel had girl power?"
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Apr 8, 2019 02:38
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teagone posted:You can make the argument that, because of the promotion that was marketed towards little girls, the film itself contains the message that influences those little girls to "rise up" and show the military what they're made of, to have the same courage as Carol Danvers and fight back. In other words, this: Yeah the condemnation is never aimed at being a fighter pilot. Being a pilot is consistently portrayed as awesome.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:It made the military of the past look like a sexist boys club. The entire subtext is that wow look how cool it is to be a fighter pilot and how honorable and cool fighter pilots are and its empowering that women now get to be fighter pilots unlike in the past. That’s not really shown in the movie. Carol never gets to be a fighter pilot, and in the end becomes disillusioned with militarism entirely. Maria’s retired, so she’s not a fighter pilot, either. The only time she flies in a combat mission is against the military stand-in.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:40
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Phylodox posted:That’s not really shown in the movie. Carol never gets to be a fighter pilot, and in the end becomes disillusioned with militarism entirely. Maria’s retired, so she’s not a fighter pilot, either. The only time she flies in a combat mission is against the military stand-in. Her daughter literally tells her to fly the plane because being a pilot flying a fighter plane to take on the enemy is the most inspiring thing she could do
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Apr 8, 2019 02:41
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Her daughter literally tells her to fly the plane because being a pilot flying a fighter plane to take on the enemy is the most inspiring thing she could do That’s ignoring context entirely. Flying a fighter plane in defence of harmless, bedraggled refugees against a monolithic military aggressor isn’t exactly in keeping with current US military policy.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:46
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Phylodox posted:That’s ignoring context entirely. Flying a fighter plane in defence of harmless, bedraggled refugees against a monolithic military aggressor isn’t exactly in keeping with current US military policy. You are changing the topic. What you just said had nothing to do with the film implicitly suggesting that women serving as combat pilots is empowering and good. Also, I think you are stretching to say the Kree are an obvious analog for the US military in the context of the film.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:48
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Phylodox posted:That’s ignoring context entirely. Flying a fighter plane in defence of harmless, bedraggled refugees against a monolithic military aggressor isn’t exactly in keeping with current US military policy. It is what the military wishes to propagandize about itself
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Apr 8, 2019 02:50
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Like you seem to be suggesting two former us air force pilots using their skills as us air force pilots to fight for good and protect the innocent is anti military because the kree are supposed to be the us for some reason
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Apr 8, 2019 02:50
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Waffles Inc. posted:It is what the military wishes to propagandize about itself This too
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Apr 8, 2019 02:50
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You are changing the topic. What you just said had nothing to do with the film implicitly suggesting that women serving as combat pilots is empowering and good. I don’t think I’m stretching at all. And being a combat pilot against the military probably doesn’t constitute “serving”.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:50
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Phylodox posted:I don’t think I’m stretching at all. And being a combat pilot against the military probably doesn’t constitute “serving”. What justification do you have for the kree being a us military analog in the narrative
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Apr 8, 2019 02:52
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Phylodox posted:That’s not really shown in the movie. Carol never gets to be a fighter pilot, and in the end becomes disillusioned with militarism entirely. Maria’s retired, so she’s not a fighter pilot, either. The only time she flies in a combat mission is against the military stand-in. They were flying planes in air-to-air combat scenes but I guess that doesn’t count because they were clearly flying as test pilots, NOT “fighter” pilots. Likewise, she’s “done with militarism entirely” by single-handedly using her newfound god powers to obliterate a military force.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:55
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idiotsavant posted:They were flying planes in air-to-air combat scenes but I guess that doesn’t count because they were clearly flying as test pilots, NOT “fighter” pilots. She has, if you will, privatized
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Apr 8, 2019 02:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What justification do you have for the kree being a us military analog in the narrative In the narrative they’re clearly shown as an extension of the misogynistic assholes who discounted Carol on Earth. And in a larger context, I don’t think it’s terribly out-of-left-field to draw parallels between a fictional military that vilifies innocent refugees to justify its military actions with current real world militaries.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:58
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Remember when Captain Marvel joyously murdered an entire ship full of Kree.
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Apr 8, 2019 02:58
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Phylodox posted:In the narrative they’re clearly shown as an extension of the misogynistic assholes who discounted Carol on Earth. And in a larger context, I don’t think it’s terribly out-of-left-field to draw parallels between a fictional military that vilifies innocent refugees to justify its military actions with current real world militaries. the US army, to this day, still uses "protecting the innocent from evil tyrannical forces" as part of its justification. I mean, if anything, the Kree are a china analog they are literally a giant collectivist society run under an obscure governing power that is not answerable to its people and their battle cry is literally shouting about the good of the collective it seems if you want to imply real-world messaging there is more to suggest the Kree represent the geopolitical other than they represent a warped version of ourselves.
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Apr 8, 2019 03:00
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I thought the Kree were more like a future version of the Roman Empire.
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Apr 8, 2019 03:02
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teagone posted:I thought the Kree were more like a future Roman Empire. I'm just saying if you are going to start pointing at "obvious" metaphors it can go multiple directions There is nothing inherent to the text that suggests a reading of the Kree as analogous to the US military
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Apr 8, 2019 03:03
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The politics of Captain Marvel are as (purposely) muddied as those in Black Panther, so I'm not sure there's any way to definitively win any debate on this movie. It's almost like someone is purposely looking over some of these scripts as "you can read these any way."
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Apr 8, 2019 03:33
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I didn't notice the military stuff as being intrinsic to the film or having a message, but I think that's because I'm a dude. My gf's immediate talking points were "I found the start baffling and boring" followed by "guess they really want more women in the US military?"
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Apr 8, 2019 03:42
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It seemed to me like any negativity that was portrayed of "the military" was focused entirely on the men and less on the institution itself.
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Apr 8, 2019 03:52
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Phylodox posted:That’s ignoring context entirely. Flying a fighter plane in defence of harmless, bedraggled refugees against a monolithic military aggressor isn’t exactly in keeping with current US military policy. In Australia you will see military recruitment ads before movies most of the time. In trying to sell the military they show, among other things, cool military people helping refugees with supplies, young kids getting inspired, women looking at jets in the sky etc. They never show combat. The content of the movie you describe matches this exactly. This is just one ad, but you get the idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k8udIZCXkc
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Apr 8, 2019 04:04
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Phylodox posted:The external promotions don’t change the actual text of the film, though, which is decidedly anti-war. At least as much so as Wonder Woman. the dod and/or cia get script approval on any movie featuring the us military. Washington DC’s role behind the scenes in Hollywood goes deeper than you think e: ok this was already addressed but there's a link anyway
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Apr 9, 2019 03:58
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You are changing the topic. What you just said had nothing to do with the film implicitly suggesting that women serving as combat pilots is empowering and good. "hey you're not allowed to put my quotes in their proper context, that's cheating!" lol
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Apr 10, 2019 19:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I'm just saying if you are going to start pointing at "obvious" metaphors it can go multiple directions aside from using technological superiority to impose their will on other cultures via force? did the elite fighting force descending on a bunch of foreigners in burkas, who they describe as terrorists, living in a cave really not remind you of anything that maybe the US military has been doing recently?
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Apr 10, 2019 19:51
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Even the MCU movies' endings are Hydra, finish one ending and two shall take its place. Edit: Oh wow this isn't the comicbook-related thread I meant to post this, sorry.
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Apr 10, 2019 20:25
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Did a dude just revive a thread to make weak attempts to counter some of my random posts
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Apr 10, 2019 20:31
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Ya but that’s good because now you can point out that the obvious analogy to the US military is actually.... the US military. Yes, the United States Air Force, you might remember a scene or two where the leading character and one of her important supporting characters walk around looking snappy in US military uniforms and Try To Fight The Good Fight but are kept down by sexist jerks. Historical sexist jerks acting as individuals, though, because now ladies can be And those ladies are still Fighting The Good Fight except instead of snappy US military uniforms one is wearing a snappy superhero costume that just happens to incorporate US colors and military design patterns. But that’s only because she’s rejecting her military aspirations by punching the poo poo out of a bunch of space battleships.
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Apr 10, 2019 22:11
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