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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's more that they're two completely different lessons. Like, he rejects a cosmic cheat code that would render all of his personal problems moot, because it's wrong and would erase everything he cares about -- which is the right decision, but just because he rejected a morally compromised shortcut doesn't mean he ever made progress on his personal problems in the first place.
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Jun 25, 2019 21:01
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The way I understood it is that SEELE’s plan was “everyone gets forced into Instrumentality forever, no takebacks”, while NERV/Yui’s plan was the same except that people would have the option to leave if they had the same realizations that Shinji did.
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Jun 25, 2019 21:03
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SHISHKABOB posted:Did you watch End of Evangelion? i have not seen it yet, just finished ep 26 last night and decided i should get a few hours of sleep before work lol
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Jun 25, 2019 21:04
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I'm still not sure what was the Angels' endgame. Why did they want to trigger the 3rd Impact?
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Jun 25, 2019 21:04
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Negrostrike posted:I'm still not sure what was the Angels' endgame. Why did they want to trigger the 3rd Impact? They want to trigger Third Impact so that they can settle on Earth Adam's Seed of Life landed on Earth millions of years ago, eventually followed by Lilith's Seed - that's the First Impact - causing Adam's Seed to go dormant because a planet cannot have two seeds Lilith then released her LCL, and that's where the human race came from Second Impact came around when humans rediscovered Adam's Seed and its Lance/Spear, which then caused the Angels to appear
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Jun 25, 2019 21:12
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Negrostrike posted:I'm still not sure what was the Angels' endgame. Why did they want to trigger the 3rd Impact? I assume they're mostly just trying to get lilith and 3rd impact is a side-effect of that actually it's kinda unknown what an angel-caused 3rd impact would do since it keeps getting initiated by weirdos instead
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Jun 25, 2019 21:13
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Vinylshadow posted:They want to trigger Third Impact so that they can settle on Earth wrong
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Jun 25, 2019 21:15
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That's the only version of it I've ever heard so perhaps you'd like to share with the rest of the class why it's wrong
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Jun 25, 2019 21:22
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IronicDongz posted:That's the only version of it I've ever heard so perhaps you'd like to share with the rest of the class why it's wrong It's not in the tv show or the movie.
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Jun 25, 2019 21:28
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I think that's one of those things that has been repeated as an urban legend and/or from vague supplement materials of dubious canonicality (as much as one can be in this sort of psychoanalysis, interpretative work). The explicit text of EoE is all I feel you need to know about the angels; they are humans, and humans are angels. And therefore their goal must be the "same" as the humans who have their own goals and aspirations for the Third Impact, just from their perspective rather than ours.
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Jun 25, 2019 21:30
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Nate RFB posted:I think that's one of those things that has been repeated as an urban legend and/or from vague supplement materials of dubious canonicality (as much as one can be in this sort of psychoanalysis, interpretative work). https://wiki.evageeks.org/Classified_Information_(Translation) quote:The Classified Information (機密情報, Kimitsu Jouhou) is a set of data files accessible from computer terminals located within the video game Neon Genesis Evangelion 2. It is generally considered a cornerstone of supplemental canon for the influx of new information it provides and given a great deal of weight due to Hideaki Anno's participation in the game's production. Taking discrepancies in security access into account (e.g., it requires a higher clearance level to learn that the white giant is Lilith rather than Adam), the information appears to reconcile almost completely with the show. EDIT: Just a personal opinion, I love the extra lore added here and consider it canon, but I know a lot of fans would just disregard it as psuedo-fanfiction. JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 21:32
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they're weirdo aliens who show up and shoot lasers at NERV until an evangelion kills it sometimes the lasers shatter your mind
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Jun 25, 2019 21:32
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tbp posted:one thing i cannot piece together though is the difference between gendo's plan and what seele wanted. can someone help me out a bit here? Well, first, two disclaimers. - None of this is especially clear in the show to begin with - There's a spin-off video game that gives super-explicit answers to everything relating to the Evas and the Angels and so on in the log files you gradually unlock over the course of the game, but it's really dumb, has no sense of context, and Anno and Gainax have basically disavowed it and said that the show tells you everything you need to know, so I'm going to ignore it. The first thing to keep in mind is that the Dead Sea Scrolls prophecy the apocalypse, and what they say will come true. Nobody seems to dispute this; SEELE, Gendo, and Yui all treat it as inevitable as far as the show addresses it at all. Gendo just wanted to see his wife again, either by getting her out of the robot or joining her there forever. He and Fuyutsuki have several conversations over the course of the series where they talk about how they'd prefer that humanity survive, even if they're "stained with sin" or motivated by cowardice, so whatever he was planning probably wouldn't have ended with extinction, at least. See episodes 12 and 17, in particular. SEELE as a whole is made up of the most powerful men on Earth, and it seems like at least some of them wanted to ride out the apocalypse and maintain their power. However, there's also an inner circle of SEELE members who appear to have a different goal, which involves cramming all life on Earth into a single, immortal body while they personally retain their humanity. They talk a big game about extinction leading to rebirth and how humanity is stagnant, which leads Gendo to call them on their poo poo (this all happens about 4-5 minutes into EoE) to which their response is "fine, we'll just kill you first, then." So basically -- they're somewhere between thinking that Instrumentality will let them become gods, and just one big Boomer death cult.  SEELE also notes that they can no longer use Lilith her/itself without the Lance of Longinus, which Gendo (apparently) deliberately arranged to be thrown to the moon. So one very definite difference between what Gendo wants and what SEELE's ideal scenario would have been is that the whole process uses Eva Unit 01 (with his wife inside, which he knows but they don't, at least at first) instead. And then of course Yui herself is the wildcard; because she was already in Unit 01 when Instrumentality kicks off, she (with Rei as her proxy) is already there to take control of it. And we can more-or-less tell what she wanted, because it's what actually happens in EoE: humanity is temporarily absorbed into a single, individuality-free whole, but everyone who has the will to live will return to life, she gets to see her husband and son one last time, and then (either because she wants to or as a consequence of this whole process) she'll spend the rest of eternity alone in Unit 01 as proof that mankind existed. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jun 25, 2019 |
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Jun 25, 2019 21:35
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IronicDongz posted:everyone else except asuka is still orange kool aid though, so nearly everything he cared about still did get erased Nah, Yui explicitly says in EoE that anyone who wants to come back will, so no, most of them are probably still alive and just elsewhere. The only members of the main cast who seem like they had zero will to live left are Gendo and maaaybe Ritsuko, most of them react to Instrumentality with abject horror.
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Jun 25, 2019 21:37
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, first, two disclaimers. it sounds like EOE is vital to watch - i've spoiled myself a bit today in trying to read info about the series without having watched it yet, i was under the misinterpretation that it was complementary. that said, i don't raelly care about being spoiled, so im looking forward to it thank you a ton for the explanation, it's helpful. what a great show!
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Jun 25, 2019 22:02
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IronicDongz posted:everyone else except asuka is still orange kool aid though, so nearly everything he cared about still did get erased That's just where the movie ends. More people will probably follow Asuka out of the tang ocean, Yui tells Shinji that and Asuka is proof she wasn't lying. It juat doesn't really matter in the context of the movie or Shinji's journey so it cuts out before we see anyone else.
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Jun 25, 2019 22:05
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People discovering EoE for the first time is delicious in of itself because remember, that final scene was the last we or anyone else had of animated Evangelion for 10 years. I and I assume many others here eventually came to peace if not outright appreciate what that movie was able to accomplish but it's a doozy when you factor in the time. It was our "How's Annie?!  "
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Jun 25, 2019 22:24
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tbp posted:it sounds like EOE is vital to watch - i've spoiled myself a bit today in trying to read info about the series without having watched it yet, i was under the misinterpretation that it was complementary. that said, i don't raelly care about being spoiled, so im looking forward to it Enjoy, End of Evangelion is a real trip. I'm trying to get some of my best friends to watch the show with me, but they are always... Less than excited by my suggestions in media. 
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Jun 25, 2019 22:29
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Yeah most of the time when people tell me that EoE is bleak and nihilistic, I ask them if they actually listened to Yui's monologue. Or Shinji's conversation with Rei. It's pretty clear that there's a strong potential for things to get better, at least in the film's ethos.
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Jun 25, 2019 22:44
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I find it entirely plausible that Asuka "gently caress Everyone" Soryu and Shinji "gently caress Me" Ikari were the only two people who ever lived who were broken enough to bail on the orange kool-aid for diametrically opposed reasons.
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Jun 25, 2019 23:27
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So I watched all 26 episodes and EoE when they came out on Netflix over a two-day binge. Hoo nelly. It was basically what I was told to expect. I feel like the entire experience was enhanced by the fact that I was suffering crippling lower back pain at the time. I can't imagine what I would have thought if I had seen it when it first came out. Watching it now, in my 30s, I've got a little more immunity built up, having already had my mind destroyed by Paprika and my soul destroyed by Twin Peaks: the Return. I thought I would wind up feeling worse for Rei, but the one who really got to me was Asuka. To watch her go from "eat poo poo, losers!" to naked and near-catatonic in an abandoned building... man. That being said, it was really a struggle to get through her introductory episode. I didn't like the incredibly goofy tone of that episode. Especially that dipshit wandering around going SUGOI SUGOI SUGOI to everything. Poor Asuka. She just wanted somebody to praise her and give her a hug 
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Jun 25, 2019 23:35
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The manga version of Eva had a lot of strong points, including a much more fleshed-out characterization of Rei, but it really, REALLY failed to stick the landing.Beefstew posted:Yeah most of the time when people tell me that EoE is bleak and nihilistic, I ask them if they actually listened to Yui's monologue. Or Shinji's conversation with Rei. It's pretty clear that there's a strong potential for things to get better, at least in the film's ethos. Yeah, without One More Finale I would have called the ending uplifting.
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Jun 25, 2019 23:35
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Cosmik Slop posted:Poor Asuka. She just wanted somebody to praise her and give her a hug
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Jun 25, 2019 23:41
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even back when I was in highschool people saying shinji is whiny seemed nutso to me traumatized child fighting experiencing extreme literal pain every time he is socially pressured to go out into combat
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Jun 25, 2019 23:50
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IronicDongz posted:even back when I was in highschool people saying shinji is whiny seemed nutso to me after listening to snippets of the dub for the first time in like a decade, I think Spike Spencer's performance is a big part of why people react like that
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Jun 25, 2019 23:51
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I mean anyone that can pass judgment on a 12 year old( I think?) is kind of hosed up.
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Jun 25, 2019 23:53
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"lmao bUt He GeTs ToO rIdE a GiAnT rObOt AnD hAs HoT gIrLs AlL oVeR hIm" -some doo doo the clown lookin idiot "I wasn't like that when I was 14" -a smart person
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Jun 26, 2019 00:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:after listening to snippets of the dub for the first time in like a decade, I think Spike Spencer's performance is a big part of why people react like that
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Jun 26, 2019 00:27
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Shinji is a whiny kid. That’s what he is
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Jun 26, 2019 00:28
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IronicDongz posted:everyone else except asuka is still orange kool aid though, so nearly everything he cared about still did get erased The beach scene does not take place immediately after the end of Third Impact. There was enough time for Shinji to build some ad-hoc memorials to Misato and others, it could have been anything from a few hours to several days. We don't even know, technically, if Asuka is the first or only person who has emerged from the sea of LCL - she's just, seemingly, the only one Shinji has seen so far. CharlestheHammer posted:Shinji is a whiny kid. That’s what he is Shinji whines, but he is still deserving of empathy.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:29
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through cultural osmosis i kinda got that people disliked shinji, but i didn't get that at all on my watch through. the show pretty blatantly spells out how awful everything has been for him up to and throughout the series - i don't really understand what there is to criticize. he's abandoned and forced into brutal combat that has some psychological effect on everyone involved and then forced to grapple with the concept of reality and self determination, i think it's fair to give him a pretty big break?
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Jun 26, 2019 00:31
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah. Portraying Shinji as a whiny kid who's undeserving of sympathy pretty fundamentally changes the whole tone of the show, and I'm glad that the Netflix version hasn't been giving people the same impression.  Sounding whiny doesn't mean he's undeserving of sympathy, it means "the fact they're forcing him to do this is exceptionally hosed up"
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Jun 26, 2019 00:32
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Blaziken386 posted:I like Spencer's performance. Yeah fundamentally shinji has issues and responds to it in the way a kid would. By being whiny. It would be weird if it was portrayed any other way.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:35
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I think a lot of it is that Shinji has a fairly normal beginning for a mecha anime pilot in being a really hosed up kid. The big difference is he never really sheds that and becomes an ace or veteran, he's still a scared and hosed up kid by the end. Compare that to like Amuro in MSG, who also starts out as a weirdo loser forced to pilot a giant robot to survive but ends up becoming a skilled ace pilot and leader by the end of his series.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:36
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People just really wanted him to grow a pair, man up and get in the drat robot like every other mecha protagonist, despite the entire show doing everything it can to demonstrate how horribly hosed that idea actually is.Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The beach scene does not take place immediately after the end of Third Impact. There was enough time for Shinji to build some ad-hoc memorials to Misato and others, it could have been anything from a few hours to several days. We don't even know, technically, if Asuka is the first or only person who has emerged from the sea of LCL - she's just, seemingly, the only one Shinji has seen so far. IIRC there's rust on Misato's cross pendant, so it's been a while since Shinji found the will to keep living. I think one of the proposed endings would have been just him by himself, holding hands with what looks like Rei (but is really her severed arm) while coming to the conclusion that while he finally realized that he wants to live and is ready to take the risk of engaging with others again, seemingly no one else did, so he's just going to live on alone until his dying breath.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:36
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Shinji is whiny cause Shinji has a lot to rightfully whine about
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Jun 26, 2019 00:38
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Zore posted:I think a lot of it is that Shinji has a fairly normal beginning for a mecha anime pilot in being a really hosed up kid. The big difference is he never really sheds that and becomes an ace or veteran, he's still a scared and hosed up kid by the end. Compare that to like Amuro in MSG, who also starts out as a weirdo loser forced to pilot a giant robot to survive but ends up becoming a skilled ace pilot and leader by the end of his series. I found it conspicuous that the ONE time he starts to say "Hey, I'm getting pretty good at this!" and begins to show signs of initiative and confidence the show actively punishes him by imprisoning him in a psychologically gruelling mathematical nega-dimension that he can only exit by going into a berserk, blood-covered fury and spending a month trapped in a non-existent purgatory.
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Jun 26, 2019 00:48
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Expect My Mom posted:Shinji is whiny cause Shinji has a lot to rightfully whine about 
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Jun 26, 2019 00:48
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tbp posted:through cultural osmosis i kinda got that people disliked shinji, but i didn't get that at all on my watch through. the show pretty blatantly spells out how awful everything has been for him up to and throughout the series - i don't really understand what there is to criticize. he's abandoned and forced into brutal combat that has some psychological effect on everyone involved and then forced to grapple with the concept of reality and self determination, i think it's fair to give him a pretty big break? It’s a strange thing but characters who have fundamental weaknesses after a lifetime of drudgery only seem to get two reactions: sympathy and pity, or outright contempt and hatred. Very few people will be neutral regarding characters like Shinji. Some are understanding but lots of fans in any fandom are hateful and go into media looking for characters to bash. Shinji is a good target because he’s weak. It’s like seeing vulnerability enrages that kind of fan.
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Jun 26, 2019 01:00
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Shinji's response to the events of the series is probably the most believable thing in the entire series. Also don't forget that Shinji absolutely loving did demonstrate self-agency at one point and stood up to his father, which only got that agency taken entirely from him.
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Jun 26, 2019 01:04
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