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Spiritus Nox posted:Kaowru is a Jesus figure. Jesus is famous for loving people, not liking them. This doesn't seem especially hard to me. “I like you” rather than “I love you” is bad. But “Kaworu said I was worthy of his grace” is defensible.
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Jul 4, 2019 00:52
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| # ? May 23, 2024 16:35 |
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Waypoint's Eva 8-13 Podcast I wasn't really looking forward to their takes on this set of episodes but it's been fine so far, touching on a lot of stuff that probably should be like Kaji's predatory advances and hitting on things I do like a lot about them.
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Jul 4, 2019 00:57
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Well I mean whether you agree with the criticisms or not they definitely exist
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Jul 4, 2019 01:08
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Ogmius815 posted:“I like you” rather than “I love you” is bad. But “Kaworu said I was worthy of his grace” is defensible. Defensible, sure, but "That was the first time anyone had ever said they loved me" is comparably accurate and *way* more raw and effective than an awkwardly structured musing on grace IMO.
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Jul 4, 2019 01:33
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I'm the person coming to the thread after 10 pages of everyone criticizing the translation saying they never read anyone criticizing the translation.
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Jul 4, 2019 01:44
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Yeah but Jesus wrote the Bible in Greek and he had like six different forms of "love" to choose from that doesn't really come across in English, either
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Jul 4, 2019 01:52
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GimmickMan posted:I'm the person coming to the thread after 10 pages of everyone criticizing the translation saying they never read anyone criticizing the translation. But no one can explain what’s wrong with it other than repeating the “it’s too literal” talking point they heard from others. The substance of the complaints is really just “one or two lines are different than what I knew”. Mermaid Autopsy posted:Yeah but Jesus wrote the Bible in Greek and he had like six different forms of "love" to choose from that doesn't really come across in English, either This is off topic, but Jesus famously didn’t write anything. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 01:52
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I mean do you want people to go line by line? That’s really dumb.
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Jul 4, 2019 01:56
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Ogmius815 posted:But no one can explain what’s wrong with it other than repeating the “it’s too literal” talking point they heard from others. The substance of the complaints is really just “one or two lines are different than what I knew”. Its stilted and awkward in a way that's very off-putting. This is notable especially with things like 'third children' instead of 'third child'. It has a lot of awkward wording that no native English speaker would pick which is incredible jarring. Even the much talked about 'worthy of his grace' line fits here because that kind of poetic language is at odds with almost everything else Shinji says. It feels translated in a way that good translations do not. Zore fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 02:00
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You can reduce pretty much any criticism of a new translation of anything to be "lines are different than what I knew" but sure, ignore where people have said using "Children" instead of "child" sounds bad in english on top of other stuff. edit: dangit
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Jul 4, 2019 02:02
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Mermaid Autopsy posted:Yeah but Jesus wrote the Bible in Greek and he had like six different forms of "love" to choose from that doesn't really come across in English, either I mean sure but it's not like the English "love" doesn't have any ambiguity to it. Like even if the TL was deliberately trying to be lovely and "no homo" about it they didn't really need to change the line to something that flows so much worse.
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Jul 4, 2019 02:03
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Love having multiple meanings is pretty important given how the scene is pretty much explicit fulfillment of Shinji's desire for unconditional love. I was reading Freud in college around the same time I watched Evangelion and I remember he makes a point about how the love of Christ is something we both desire for its lack of conditionality and reject because we know ourselves and the rest of humanity to be incapable of expressing, as all our love is conditional. It's Freud so he probably also related it back to the perceived unconditional love of our mothers which might relate to Shinji in some way... It's also the part where Anno is most directly homaging Devilman, which is has textual Jesus/Lucifer bibleslash.
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Jul 4, 2019 02:03
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Ogmius815 posted:This is off topic, but Jesus famously didn’t write anything.  Anyways, literal translation's a perfectly valid translation style; see Walter Benjamin's "The Task of the Translator". And people disregard the actual, substantive errors in the old dub.
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Jul 4, 2019 02:09
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Lol citing a work on translation that was last revised in the 60s Also I don’t think anyone is ignoring the errors it’s just not terribly important
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Jul 4, 2019 02:13
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The only real error in the old dub is the explanation Misato gives about Adam and Lillith in EoE. And even then, it hardly matters. The horrible splat sounds they added for some stupid reason on the other hand...
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Jul 4, 2019 02:35
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Ogmius815 posted:But no one can explain what’s wrong with it other than repeating the “it’s too literal” talking point they heard from others. The substance of the complaints is really just “one or two lines are different than what I knew”. i thought i had posted it in this thread but turns out i confused it wiht a different one ArfJason posted:Yeah but like, if anything, that makes kaworus confession even stronger. Asuka never once tells him she liked him.
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Jul 4, 2019 02:41
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though i will agree that "being worthy of his grace" sticks with the whole jesus interpretation, but i feel it loses a lot of the directness of shinji's unfulfilled love and the betrayal that follows soon after to the point its probably the lesser choice, and also sounds a bit unnatural, but half the cast of eva talks in riddles anyway so
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Jul 4, 2019 02:44
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Just watched episode 25 what the gently caress is going on here e: Ep 26. OMFG Rei with the toast P-Mack fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 02:46
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Okay, so I'm done and I think the TV ending is completely incongruous, resolves absolutely nothing of the plot and is also pretty much perfect.
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Jul 4, 2019 03:12
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Its so good also if you thought that was wild you aint seen nothing yet.
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Jul 4, 2019 03:22
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I’m noticing that later episodes more frequently have cold openings.
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Jul 4, 2019 03:25
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Ogmius815 posted:I’m noticing that later episodes more frequently have cold openings. those are only in the directors cut episodes!
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Jul 4, 2019 03:38
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P-Mack posted:Okay, so I'm done and I think the TV ending is completely incongruous, resolves absolutely nothing of the plot and is also pretty much perfect. I literally just finished the show and this was my reaction as well. It's a fantastic character study/talk therapy session but on a plot level the sheer volume of things left unresolved (Gendo's plan being the big one) is insane. Other observations:  Spoilers ahoy! -It's incredible that no matter now many times I watch this series I still manage to pick up new things I missed before. My big discovery this time around was finally figuring out WTF was up with the second impact and why it's origins are such a dangerous secret (It's because human beings actually willfully created Adam rather than just waking up something we found in the arctic). -If you were to tell me that the writers originally planned to make NGE two season's long I'd believe you. There's a huge difference in how the first half of the show handles pacing vs the last half. For example early on each angel got 2-3 episodes where towards the end you get only one. There are also a lot of conspicuously missing moments you'd expect like seeing Shinji saying goodbye to the non-pilot kids after Rei blows up Tokyo 3 or even much acknowledgement that Tokyo three is actually now a dead city. Fortunately Anno is a really drat good director so instead of being an unwatchable mess of exposition like The Last Airbender the last half of the series becomes some of the most efficient (and by extension interesting) storytelling ever put to film. It is so loving dense with meaningful content. -This show doesn't get enough credit for having some of the best characterization in anime. Seriously, it's jam packed with amazing little moments that reveal how people are really feeling and foreshadow conflicts that will come up way later. It's also really drat good at writing teenagers that feel like teenagers rather than miniature adults. -Seriously though. What the hell was Gendo's plan? I know his goal was to resurrect his dead wife but what were the mechanics of this and why did it require undermining Seele? Yes, I've seen the movie but even then I'm having trouble puzzling it out. Why did he need to get rid of the spear of longinus? Why Did Unit 1 need to eat an angel? What was preventing him from using Adam on Rei immediately after all the pieces of his plan were in place like halfway through the series? I have so many questions! Onward to EOE and the Rebuild movies! readingatwork fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 04:00
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I'm pretty sure Adam was something we found in the Antarctic and woke up to cause 2nd Impact. Adam isn't man-made.
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Jul 4, 2019 04:20
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Adam is not man-made, no. Gendo explicitly calls it The First Human Being when Kaji brings it to him
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Jul 4, 2019 04:24
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readingatwork posted:-Seriously though. What the hell was Gendo's plan? It may surprise you to learn that it's only vaguely touched on and barely explained. There's only a couple hints in the main series and the debatable video game canon, but the seeming split is that Seele wants to use the Evas to achieve some sort of godhood with their individual identities preserved, while Gendo wants to unify every human consciousness so that he can be reunited with Yui. Like a lot of things in NGE, the diegetic mechanics are less interesting as a subject than the narrative outcome.
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Jul 4, 2019 04:27
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Zeruel posted:I'm pretty sure Adam was something we found in the Antarctic and woke up to cause 2nd Impact. Adam isn't man-made. Expect My Mom posted:Adam is not man-made, no. Gendo explicitly calls it The First Human Being when Kaji brings it to him drat. There's a scene in episode 23 where they reveal the tank full of Rei's where Ritsuko says something to the affect of "Humans tried to ressurect their lost God. This was Adam" but I watched it again just now and it looks like I misunderstood the context of what she was saying. I am dumb.  *tears NGE plot chart off of wall*
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Jul 4, 2019 04:31
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readingatwork posted:-Seriously though. What the hell was Gendo's plan? I know his goal was to resurrect his dead wife but what were the mechanics of this and why did it require undermining Seele? Yes, I've seen the movie but even then I'm having trouble puzzling it out. Why did he need to get rid of the spear of longinus? Why Did Unit 1 need to eat an angel? What was preventing him from using Adam on Rei immediately after all the pieces of his plan were in place like halfway through the series? I have so many questions! Gendo's plan isn't really spelled out, but we get enough pieces to make an educated guess. You said you're still watching EoE, so, I'm going to chuck this in spoiler tags. Gendo's plan isn't to resurrect Yui but to be reunited with her. After all, he's confident enough in this plan that he goes through with it even as SEELE is attacking NERV. Resurrecting Yui would just probably get the two of them shot. Gendo's plan was to enact a private form of Instrumentality, reuniting himself with Yui inside Unit-01. Fuyutski, for example, notes that Gendo's plan seems private. "Give my regards to Yui." Gendo had to undermine SEELE to ensure they couldn't enact their own version of Third Impact, and to possibly remove any threats to himself post-Third Impact. The Spear of Longinus is extremely powerful, hence a threat to Unit 01, but also a necessary component of SEELE's Third Impact ritual. Gendo presumably thought that by having Rei throw it out of orbit, it would be beyond SEELE's reach. And, credit to to him, it is. If not for whatever process summoned it back to Earth, the Lance would've been lost. Unit 01 needed to eat an Angel to combine the Fruit of Knowledge with the Fruit of Life, making it something like a deity and immune to anything short of the Lance. Gendo doesn't use Adam on Rei immediately because the previous criteria had not been fulfilled. The Lance is still around (if in his posession) and Unit 01 has not apotheosised. The Angels also have not been defeated, and it could be presumed that they, like the Lance, are one of the few threats to Unit 01. SEELE seems to think that Instrumentality can only begin once the Angels have been defeated. So, Gendo's plan was to reunite with Yui. Whether this was anything like the Rei/Lillith-directed Third Impact we see is unknown. And given how Gendo's 'retribution' differs from everyone else's joyful embrace (except Aoba, RIP) it's clear that something is quite different about it, but Gendo still does end up in Instrumentality. It seems to me that Gendo's Instrumentality involved only himself, Yui, and maybe Shinji as the pilot of Unit 01. If the rest of the world dies in the process, well, I doubt Gendo cared. As for the discussion a few pages back as to why SEELE chose Gendo of all people, well, he's basically SEELE's hatchetman. The guy they have in charge who will ensure their plans are carried out to the letter. They were suspicious of him (I mean, who isn't?) but didn't seem to have any idea that he and Yui were, essentially, conspiring. But they presumably thought that the unremarkable if ruthless Gendo aligned with their goals. Gendo didn't even create Rei, that was Fuyutski's idea. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 04:56
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:But they presumably thought that the unremarkable if ruthless Gendo aligned with their goals. Gendo didn't even create Rei, that was Fuyutski's idea. YOU WHAT  SERIOUSLY?
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Jul 4, 2019 05:05
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Gendo's plan isn't really spelled out, but we get enough pieces to make an educated guess. You said you're still watching EoE, so, I'm going to chuck this in spoiler tags. This actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the writeup. Also: Zeruel posted:YOU WHAT
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Jul 4, 2019 05:09
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Zeruel posted:YOU WHAT Seems to be. When he and Gendo are looking at that tank Rei sometimes floats in, Fuyutsuki says something to the effect of "she was the product of my despair, and the vessel of your hope." Seems to me that Fuyutsuki, in his grief after losing Yui, hoped to make a clone of her. Remember, he's a Professor of Metaphysical Biology or whatever whereas as far as we know Gendo has no qualifications in anything. So, Fuyutsuki tries to clone Yui, Gendo maybe realizes they can combine her with Lillith DNA or soul or whatever happened there so he could get the real Yui back. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jul 4, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 05:09
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When Asuka first meets Rei, Rei's reading a book about cloning, in german.
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Jul 4, 2019 05:21
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You see, one death wasn’t enough for Yui (no word yet on a million).
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Jul 4, 2019 05:30
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First dressing Shinji up to look like Yui, now this? Man he went from a pretty cool old dude to ........ eugh....
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Jul 4, 2019 05:34
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Ogmius815 posted:You see, one death wasn’t enough for Yui (no word yet on a million). Kull wahad!
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Jul 4, 2019 05:37
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Every time Shinji says 'I mustn't run away' he recites the mind-killer mantra in full.
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Jul 4, 2019 05:38
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watching the new dub Misato's VA really, really reminded me of someone but I couldn't place it until a couple minutes ago. I dunno what the exact trigger was, but she sounds almost exactly like Idina Menzel (aka Elsa from Frozen and a shitload of broadway shows). I actually really like most of the voice actors in this dub. I can't think of anyone who I haven't adjusted to, and any problems i have with this dub are generally "this doesn't sound like how humans choose words" rather than anything to do with performance.
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Jul 4, 2019 06:55
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Ogmius815 posted:You see, one death wasn’t enough for Yui (no word yet on a million). I love this and hate this.
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Jul 4, 2019 07:22
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I love reading Eva assuming Misato is far more competant than the show lets her be. I just got to the episode where they all go to a wedding and Misato gets drunk and I honestly think she pretended to get drunk to trick Kaji into thinking she wouldn't be on his rear end when he investigates terminal dogma the next day. Not that she didn't spill her guts about how she felt about Kaji but yeah I think she knew he was trying to gently caress with her to get Nerv's secrets.
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Jul 4, 2019 08:26
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No Misato is just that hardcore. Kaji asks how's the hangover and Misato is just blasting through it.
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Jul 4, 2019 08:35
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