Neon Genesis Evangelion megathread: Death & Rebirth of the author

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Wark Say: Feb 22, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

FilthyImp posted:

If it's anything like Bottle, he'll get 2 posts before the threat of a Mod Challenge drives 'em off. Lol

I'm open to suggestions, btw.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:23

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# ? May 24, 2024 16:00

Soul Reaver: Mar 8, 2009; in retrospect the old redtext was a little over the top, I think I was in a bad mood that day. it appears you've learned your lesson about slagging our gods and masters at beamdog but I'm still going to leave this av up because i think its funny

god bless

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

Why? Basically everything we've seen about the Evangelions in the Rebuilds is that they are different creations. The whole background linked to them is different in major ways. Let's see, off the top of my head...

There are humanoid crucified outlines, like the MP Evas, scattered around Tokyo 3.

Evangelion 01 has different colored skin.

Yui may not even be inside Evangelion 01. If so, she seems to lack the ability to control Unit 01. When 01 has gone berserk, it's seemingly Shinji driving the process.

Evangelion 01 can ascend into a radiant giant of light, resembling one of the Adams (whatever they are).

Speaking of the Adams, Evangelion 13, which greatly resembles Unit 01, is said to be an Adam. It also completely lacks an AT Field.

The Mark 09 is also linked to the Adams. It is also linked to the Wunder, referred to as its true master.

Therefore, Kaworu's Mark 06 is likely another, too. It was excavated on the moon and appears to possess Lillith's old mask. Either way, Seele calls it 'the true Evangelion.'

There were four Adams. And we have four Evangelions linked to them visually or explicitly: Unit 01, Unit 13, Mark 06 and Mark 09.

Lillith herself is wearing a beaked 'Angel mask.' Multiple characters speak about a specific covenant or contract with Lillith.

The Lance of Longinus has a counterpart - the Spear of Cassius.

The Vatican Treaty that restricts Evangelions keeps their numbers at three. Their logo seems to match Ascended Unit 01 (three eyes, two cores). Four Adams were involved at Second Impact.

Be interesting to see the supposed contradictions within this. That aren't, y'know, some variation of 'it's poo poo because I don't like it.'

The problem with this is that most of the above as justification that the Evangelions in the Rebuilds are different comes FROM Rebuild 3.0, which is the one I believe has lovely writing, making this something of a circular argument.

You've regurgitated a bunch of stuff that Rebuild 3.0 added to the mix. But how does any of this actually matter to the audience in an emotional way? Am I supposed to say "Oh my god, there's a Spear of Cassius and it's a counterpart of the Lance of Longinus?!" So what? How does that affect anything? How is that even interesting?
What about if there were actually also 50 Lance of Judas' kept in a warehouse hidden beneath Nerv headquarters, and they're the counterpart of the Lance of Longinus too but ALSO made from Yui and Ritsuko's fused DNA, secretly waiting until after Third Impact to be used in Gendo's plan? Would that have been even more interesting?

The above is a bunch of incoherent technobabble that - at least so far - has been largely meaningless from a narrative perspective. It doesn't form a part of any coherent theory or narrative, and most importantly it failed to make me emotionally or intellectually invested in any of these 'revelations'.

Evangelion 3.0+1.0 could potentially turn me around if it actually gives meaning to all of this stuff, but based on what I've seen so far I seriously, seriously doubt it will.

Soul Reaver fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:25

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Raxivace posted:

At the very least Asuka having Beast Mode does serve as a contrast to the more graceful fighting style she tried to embrace in 2.0.

That is in fact some characterization.

It's kind of interesting, because 3.0 Asuka is a smart, disciplined team player with decent self-control when she gets into a fight. She just looks and sounds like a complete lunatic.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:27

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Worrying about internal consistency and verisimilitude as if they're automatically good, rather than dependent on what a work is trying to communicate, is an unfortunately shallow and barren way of looking at fiction. It reduces every possible message to the same standards as escapism -- "can I imagine that this work of fiction depicts a real world behind the screen, that I could exist in and understand."

Those things aren't automatically bad, either -- sometimes that kind of comfort and familiarity is exactly what you need to get your point across. Maybe you want to make a point about how real things are, and you need people to identify your fiction with their own lives, or something. But Rebuild 3 isn't going for that; it's about how alienated and confused Shinji is, grasping for any possible sense of meaning or purpose in a context that is actively hostile to him and shutting him out.

None of his assumptions still hold. Evangelions don't work like they used to, he doesn't take orders from the same people, his friends and adoptive family hate him and have decades of trauma that he knows nothing about. The one character who takes him aside and explains that he has to stay calm and process things rationally waits till Shinji leaves, then curses himself because he knows that his advice is impossible to follow and that he's just playing his part in manipulating the poor kid.

Anyways, my overall point is that Rebuild 3 follows the logic of a dream or a nightmare. Shinji wakes up from a long sleep, Asuka and everyone else is cruel and angry towards him, and he's accused of murdering the world. Later, she takes the form of a wild animal snapping at his heels while they fight over literally incomprehensible stakes on a mountain of skulls.

Kaworu tells him the same story, but tries to take away his guilt and be a friend; this results in a rainbow hallucination of horses prancing together through the skies.

Events are dictated not by reference to physics or biology or some other mechanistic basis, but by moments of extreme trauma or joy or relief bursting out from under the surface of the world and transforming everything. There's actually still a kind of consistency to it, but it's a consistency of aesthetic.

In fairness, this is a pretty huge stylistic departure from how Evangelion worked in the past; it's more Expressionist and less Impressionist, if you'll forgive me. But that's not a failing, that's just the kind of movie it is.

Soul Reaver posted:

Can you give me the examples of Evangelions changing shape (and what the cause was of it)? I don't remember any such changes outside of Until 01 short of when it's caused by an Angel or Instrumentality, but it's been a long time since I watched the whole series.

Those are the examples. If you need Angels or Instrumentality to be present to accept it, well -- Rebuild 3 takes place in a world where various Angels and the aftermath of Shinji's quasi-Instrumentality have been stewing for years, completely transforming the order of the world.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:28

Soul Reaver: Mar 8, 2009; in retrospect the old redtext was a little over the top, I think I was in a bad mood that day. it appears you've learned your lesson about slagging our gods and masters at beamdog but I'm still going to leave this av up because i think its funny

god bless

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Worrying about internal consistency and verisimilitude as if they're automatically good, rather than dependent on what a work is trying to communicate, is an unfortunately shallow and barren way of looking at fiction. It reduces every possible message to the same standards as escapism -- "can I imagine that this work of fiction depicts a real world behind the screen, that I could exist in and understand."

Those things aren't automatically bad, either -- sometimes that kind of comfort and familiarity is exactly what you need to get your point across. Maybe you want to make a point about how real things are, and you need people to identify your fiction with their own lives, or something. But Rebuild 3 isn't going for that; it's about how alienated and confused Shinji is, grasping for any possible sense of meaning or purpose in a context that is actively hostile to him and shutting him out.

None of his assumptions still hold. Evangelions don't work like they used to, he doesn't take orders from the same people, his friends and adoptive family hate him and have decades of trauma that he knows nothing about. The one character who takes him aside and explains that he has to stay calm and process things rationally waits till Shinji leaves, then curses himself because he knows that his advice is impossible to follow and that he's just playing his part in manipulating the poor kid.

Anyways, my overall point is that Rebuild 3 follows the logic of a dream or a nightmare. Shinji wakes up from a long sleep, Asuka and everyone else is cruel and angry towards him, and he's accused of murdering the world. Later, she takes the form of a wild animal snapping at his heels while they fight over literally incomprehensible stakes on a mountain of skulls.

Kaworu pushes this on him, but tries to take away his guilt and be a friend; this results in a rainbow hallucination of horses prancing together through the skies.

Events are dictated not by reference to physics or biology or some other mechanistic basis, but by moments of extreme trauma or joy bursting out from under the surface of the world and transforming everything. There's actually still a kind of consistency to it, but it's a consistency of aesthetic.

In fairness, this is a pretty huge stylistic departure from how Evangelion worked in the past; it's more Expressionist and less Impressionist, if you'll forgive me. But that's not a failing, that's just the kind of movie it is.

Those are the examples. If you need Angels or Instrumentality to be present to accept it, well -- Rebuild 3 takes place in a world where various Angels and the aftermath of Shinji's quasi-Instrumentality have been stewing for years, completely transforming the order of the world.

This is a really good response, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it.

I believe the that the cost of making the audience feel Shinji's confusion and alienation comes at the cost of a lot of the things that I love about Evangelion: the world building, the development of various characters (both subtle and overt) and and understanding of what is at stake for them, the calculated lead-up and nuance toward later events that eventually blossom into big revelations. I feel that the time skip stripped away almost all of these.

The above is my opinion, and I can understand that other people may feel differently, and that the price was worth paying. I, however, don't.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:38

Milkfred E. Moore: Aug 27, 2006; 'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Soul Reaver posted:

The problem with this is that most of the above as justification that the Evangelions in the Rebuilds are different comes FROM Rebuild 3.0, which is the one I believe has lovely writing, making this something of a circular argument.

You've regurgitated a bunch of stuff that Rebuild 3.0 added to the mix. But how does any of this actually matter to the audience in an emotional way? Am I supposed to say "Oh my god, there's a spear of cassius and it's a counterpart of the Lance of Longinus?!". So what? How does that affect anything? How is that even interesting?
What about if there were actually also 50 Lance of Judas' kept in a warehouse hidden beneath Nerv headquarters, and they're the counterpart of the lance of Longinus too but ALSO made from Yui and Ritsuko's fused DNA, secretly waiting until after Third Impact to be used in Gendo's plan? Would that have been even more interesting?

The above is a bunch of incoherent technobabble that - at least so far - has been largely meaningless from a narrative perspective. It doesn't form any coherent theory or narrative, and most importantly it failed to make me emotionally or intellectually invested in any of these 'revelations'.

Evangelion 3.0+1.0 could potentially turn me around if it actually gives meaning to all of this stuff, but I seriously, seriously doubt it will.

No, it comes from 2.0, too. 2.0 introduces the four Adams and Unit 01's visual link to them. It introduces the UN and their limit on Evangelions. Even 1.0 has the different skin tone and the conspicuous shot where the lights don't fall, therefore avoiding entirely the situation where Unit 01 moves to protect Shinji. When Unit 01 kills Zereul, it does it because of Shinji's will. An Evangelion on the moon also comes from 1.0 and 2.0 has the bit about it being a true Evangelion. Literally two of those points (Mark 09 and Evangelion 13) are new elements from 3.0. One of the first shots of 1.0 is the crucifix outline on a hillside and blood-red oceans.

Anyway, you said contradictions, not because it "doesn't form any coherent theory or narrative" or "failed to make me emotionally or intellectually invested." At this stage, the narrative seems coherent, if almost entirely in the background. The second point is more of a personal thing. You should speak plainly, so we might understand what you actually mean. It's okay to admit you just don't like it instead of trying to dress it up in this weird argument where you keep shifting the reasoning why its bad, eventually coming back to using long phrases to just say 'I didn't like it, it doesn't work for me.'

How does it affect anything? Let's see, top of my head... Kaworu goes with Shinji because he believes the Spear of Cassius to be with Lillith's corpse. With Cassius and Longinus, they can undo Third Impact. However, Kaworu is wrong, seemingly because Gendo altered or transformed the spears in some way (we know the Spear exists because the Lance is in Lillith and he uses a very different weapon against Unit 01 at the end of 2.0). The actual specifics are unimportant because, as Tuxedo Catfish says, Evangelion 3.0 is just a very different film. What matters to that scene as a consequence is that something is obviously very wrong, but Shinji ('manning up') pushes forward and onward anyway, and begins Fourth Impact.

I don't even particularly like 3.0, and I think part of the reason why 4.0 has taken so long is because 3.0 has left everything with a lot of ground to cover. But it also wouldn't surprise me at all if 4.0 doesn't bring any of this to the foreground and keeps its focus on Shinji as 3.0 did.

Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:40

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Like, everything Milkfred E. Moore says in his post is true, and someone paying close attention to the movies will probably pick up on it, but much like nearly everything relating to the Evangelions and Instrumentality in the original series, we are never given enough information to judge the true significance of apocalyptic events.

The only approach that makes End of Evangelion (for example) even remotely comprehensible is to figure out what each character probably wanted, what kind of person they were, what motivated them, and then work backwards from there to say, for example, "okay Yui probably didn't want all of humanity to die in the apocalypse" or whatever.

The Classified Files from that one video game kind of undermined this a little -- how much depends on how seriously you take the entirety of Evangelion as a franchise and where you draw the line, but nonetheless, it introduced an interpretive lens that wasn't there before -- and one of my favorite things about Rebuild is that they mash the reset button on the in-narrative metaphysics so that we once again can't even pretend to understand what's going on with Adam(s) and Lilith and the true nature of Evangelions or whatever.

Soul Reaver posted:

This is a really good response, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it.

I believe the that the cost of making the audience feel Shinji's confusion and alienation comes at the cost of a lot of the things that I love about Evangelion: the world building, the development of various characters (both subtle and overt) and and understanding of what is at stake for them, the calculated lead-up and nuance toward later events that eventually blossom into big revelations. I feel that the time skip stripped away almost all of these.

The above is my opinion, and I can understand that other people may feel differently, and that the price was worth paying. I, however, don't.

That's totally fair, and I probably shouldn't have been so flippant earlier.

I also have no idea what Rebuild 3.0 + 1.0 is going to be like. The movies are set up like they're a series but they're made years apart from each other and it feels very much a "live" process where Anno could radically shift direction at any point. (The latter point is also true of the TV series.)

I honestly don't expect that they're going to sit us down and give us Fuyutsuki's Primer on Metaphysical Biology, but it's entirely possible that the last movie will be more grounded and less abstract, or draw on different influences, or have a different emotional tone, or a million other things.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:44

redsniper: Feb 15, 2012

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

Effort post about Evas and Adams

Thank you for this. There's definitely some really deliberate deviation from the original story going on that I've been stewing over so it's nice to see it compiled in one place.

Re: cat beast mode. I thought it was dumb at first too, but now I'm seeing it more as the march of technology in the NERV/WILLE war. We see NERV using weaponized angel hybrid machines, so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch that WILLE could have done some biological upgrading on the Evas with trippy angel CRISPRs or whatever.
It fits with how NGE takes supernatural things like souls and gods and brings them down to the level of the mundane, stuff you can experiment on and mathematically analyze like anything else. 3.0 basically goes beyond EoE where now even the unfathomable angels are just components for man made stuff. Humanity is the real monsters once again, etc. I dig it.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 02:50

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Worrying about internal consistency and verisimilitude as if they're automatically good, rather than dependent on what a work is trying to communicate, is an unfortunately shallow and barren way of looking at fiction. It reduces every possible message to the same standards as escapism -- "can I imagine that this work of fiction depicts a real world behind the screen, that I could exist in and understand."

twisting yourself in knots to explain bad writing as metaphor is equally shallow, although wordier

like yes understanding what's going on is actually kind of important to enjoying a story

e:

again EVA as a whole is not some meticulously-crafted masterpiece, it is a giant mess made by a man who was actively undergoing an emotional breakdown. and that's fine.

3.0's big problem is that there's no real substance to it despite the earth-shattering changes. everything happens but nothing actually happens

Yinlock fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:04

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Yinlock posted:

twisting yourself in knots to explain bad writing as metaphor is equally shallow, although wordier

like yes understanding what's going on is actually kind of important to enjoying a story

e:

again EVA as a whole is not some meticulously-crafted masterpiece, it is a giant mess made by a man who was actively undergoing an emotional breakdown. and that's fine.

Good thing I'm not doing any of that, and nothing I've said requires Eva to be a "meticulously-crafted masterpiece" to be true.

Yinlock posted:

3.0's big problem is that there's no real substance to it despite the earth-shattering changes. everything happens but nothing actually happens

Also wrong. A great deal happens in terms of Shinji's emotional state and his relationship to various other characters -- he's hurt and betrayed by Misato and Asuka, agonizes over why Rei won't respond to him, feels totally alone and worthless, meets Kaworu who promises him a way out (but underestimates how rabidly and single-mindedly Shinji will pursue having a sense of purpose again), encounters Asuka again and is unable to come to an understanding with her because they each regard the other as having betrayed the other.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:12

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Really don't want to make the whole "don't dare criticize when you aren't an expert" thing, but a lot of you maybe need to consider that since you aren't actually trained critics or successful writers, you probably shouldn't be so quick to accuse a work of bad writing when its much more likely that your personal biases are interfering with your amateur judgement of the material

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:16

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Really don't want to make the whole "don't dare criticize when you aren't an expert" thing, but *does that*

"your personal biases are interfering with your amateur judgement of the material" is an insanely arrogant statement

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:18

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

I wouldn't want a professional critic to conclusively state "bad writing" like I should take them at their word either. Their expertise doesn't spare them from needing to show their work and make a convincing case.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:18

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Also wrong. A great deal happens in terms of Shinji's emotional state and his relationship to various other characters -- he's hurt and betrayed by Misato and Asuka, agonizes over why Rei won't respond to him, feels totally alone and worthless, meets Kaworu who promises him a way out (but underestimates how rabidly and single-mindedly Shinji will pursue having a sense of purpose again), encounters Asuka again and is unable to come to an understanding with her because they each regard the other as having betrayed the other.

a great deal happens but none of it actually lasts, it just feels like everyone's back where they started and the whole movie was all a colossal waste of time

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:18

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Yinlock posted:

To put it more clearly: if you want to use a line like "bad writing" then you're gonna have to do a hell of a lot more legwork than anyone in this thread has even come close to doing, because "I don't like it" doesn't loving count

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:20

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

To put it more clearly: if you want to use a line like "bad writing" then you're gonna have to do a hell of a lot more legwork than anyone in this thread has even come close to doing, because "I don't like it" doesn't loving count

"it's nearly impossible to actually understand what the gently caress is going on unless you pour over every plot point like a loving anime scientist" has already been pointed out and dismissed by said scientists 1000 times

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:22

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Yinlock posted:

"it's nearly impossible to actually understand what the gently caress is going on unless you pour over every plot point like a loving anime scientist" has already been pointed out and dismissed by said scientists 1000 times

"I didn't pay attention" is also not a valid excuse

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:22

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

"I didn't pay attention" is also not a valid excuse

the fact that people get confused isn't because their small ape brains cannot understand this grand narrative, it's because it's badly written and confusing

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:23

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

I literally watched 3.0 on a shaky cam rip with dodgy speed subs while high and still largely figured out what was going on, if you did not then the problem is on your end

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:24

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

I literally watched 3.0 on a shaky cam rip with dodgy speed subs while high and still largely figured out what was going on, if you did not then the problem is on your end

I figured out what was going on too(not that it was good or made sense), but if you're dismissing any complaints offhand because you think the people complaining are idiots then maybe your biases are interfering with your amateur judgement of the material

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:25

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

More than anything else in the Evangelion franchise, Rebuild 3 feels like it was influenced by Kunihiku Ikuhara. Like, Revolutionary Girl Utena or Mawaru Penguindrum don't make much sense as a literal sequence of events either. Everything you see in those shows is the characters having emotional reactions to unseen or partially seen events, and then their emotions are visually reflected in their surroundings in a surreal, representational way.

Yinlock posted:

a great deal happens but none of it actually lasts, it just feels like everyone's back where they started and the whole movie was all a colossal waste of time

They're not back where they started though! Rei has a breakthrough and decides to act for her own benefit after a long, long history of considering herself completely disposable and second to everyone else. Asuka cools down a little, enough to help Rei with that realization and to ease up on Shinji a little bit. Shinji goes from acting with confidence at the end of 2.0, to panicking and trying to do anything he can to fix things, to being nearly catatonic with depression after his efforts to put things right only makes them worse. And at the end of the film all three of them are out in the proverbial and literal desert with nobody but each other, without Eva units or SEELE or WILLE.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:25

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Like I'm not sure how to put this nicely, I am not a smart person and I still grokked it very quickly in suboptimal conditions, it is straight up not a complex narrative when you realize that the disorientation is the loving point

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:26

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

I mean it�s pretty arrogant to assume that people that had trouble understanding something are doing it in bad faith because you are the arbitrator of understanding and no amount of self deprecation will change that

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:27

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Like I'm not sure how to put this nicely, I am not a smart person and I still grokked it very quickly in suboptimal conditions, it is straight up not a complex narrative when you realize that the disorientation is the loving point

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

More than anything else in the Evangelion franchise, Rebuild 3 feels like it was influenced by Kunihiku Ikuhara. Like, Revolutionary Girl Utena or Mawaru Penguindrum don't make much sense as a literal sequence of events either. Everything you see in those shows is the characters having emotional reactions to unseen or partially seen events, and then their emotions are visually reflected in their surroundings in a surreal, representational way.

I get that, my point is I don't think that's actually a good thing narratively, which is why I accuse it of poor writing

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:27

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Yinlock posted:

I get that, my point is I don't think that's actually a good thing narratively

I mean, sure, okay, but I like Utena way more than I like Evangelion. I just get more opportunities to argue about Evangelion. :v:

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:28

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I mean, sure, okay, but I like Utena way more than I like Evangelion. I just get more opportunities to argue about Evangelion.

that's fair

Utena is pretty rad

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:29

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Yinlock posted:

I get that, my point is I don't think that's actually a good thing narratively, which is why I accuse it of poor writing

"I do not like thing" is not the same as"thing is bad"

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:30

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

"I do not like thing" is not the same as"thing is bad"

"I like thing" is not the same as "thing is good"

see how pointless this is

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:31

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

"I do not like thing" is not the same as"thing is bad"

They're a fuzzy Venn diagram. "Like" covers a lot of territory -- enjoyment, respect, understanding, agreement, and so on. I wouldn't equate enjoyment with quality because I think that's really limiting, but saying I don't enjoy, respect, or agree with a work of fiction is pretty much synonymous with saying it's bad.

The point is to establish enough common ground that you can argue a work's merits on whatever terms you share. (Or, at least, to find out that you have no common ground.)

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:32

Milkfred E. Moore: Aug 27, 2006; 'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

And just because that horrible term 'world building' got thrown around like it means anything, allow me to posit that the world building within the Rebuild films is better than the world that's presented in the original series. World building (ugh) doesn't matter much to stories. Neon Genesis Evangelion is great despite or because of it's shaky, inconsistent world building. It's also had over a decade of people fitting all the pieces together in a way that makes sense, and the thing I noted watching through the series about two weeks ago is how little information you get on, well, anything.

Yinlock posted:

a great deal happens but none of it actually lasts, it just feels like everyone's back where they started and the whole movie was all a colossal waste of time

Gendo kills SEELE and eliminates the entirety of their influence, seemingly establishing himself as the most powerful man in the world.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:39

Expect My Mom: Nov 18, 2013; by Smythe

i can't wait till i watch the rebuilds and totally love them

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:40

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Yinlock posted:

"I like thing" is not the same as "thing is good"

see how pointless this is

Nice try motherfucker, but you will find that I've never said 3.0 was good without explicitly qualifying it as an opinion

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:41

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

They're a fuzzy Venn diagram. "Like" covers a lot of territory -- enjoyment, respect, understanding, agreement, and so on. I wouldn't equate enjoyment with quality because I think that's really limiting, but saying I don't enjoy, respect, or agree with a work of fiction is pretty much synonymous with saying it's bad.

The point is to establish enough common ground that you can argue a work's merits on whatever terms you share. (Or, at least, to find out that you have no common ground.)

The Evangelion themes are coming from inside the thread.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:41

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Lol now people are whining about the evil word world building

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:45

readingatwork: Jan 8, 2009; Hello Fatty!; Fun Shoe

Yinlock posted:

twisting yourself in knots to explain bad writing as metaphor is equally shallow, although wordier

like yes understanding what's going on is actually kind of important to enjoying a story

e:

again EVA as a whole is not some meticulously-crafted masterpiece, it is a giant mess made by a man who was actively undergoing an emotional breakdown. and that's fine.

3.0's big problem is that there's no real substance to it despite the earth-shattering changes. everything happens but nothing actually happens

Half disagree. There�s the skeleton of a pretty good character driven movie here but you have to dig and overlook some stuff to find it. Complexity and obtuseness are part of the problem but a bigger issue is that most of the important decisions are made incredibly stupid in order to railroad the plot to where it needs to go.

And no, this wasn�t an issue in the series or earlier movies. Shinji strangling Asuka was an insane decision but one well set up by the movie up until that point. Shinji pulling the spears despite Kowaru�s warnings by contrast doesn�t work because it wasn�t properly set up or well executed nearly as carefully.

Again. They really needed to drop the 3I truth bomb 15 mins in while Shinji is in the ship with Misato. Let him understand WHY he shouldn�t pilot an Eva and how badly he hosed up right from the start and let the rest of the movie focus on Kowaru trying to put him back together. Character writing is much easier when you�re not trying to hide something that�s insanely easy for the protagonist to figure out.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:53

Soul Reaver: Mar 8, 2009; in retrospect the old redtext was a little over the top, I think I was in a bad mood that day. it appears you've learned your lesson about slagging our gods and masters at beamdog but I'm still going to leave this av up because i think its funny

god bless

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Really don't want to make the whole "don't dare criticize when you aren't an expert" thing, but a lot of you maybe need to consider that since you aren't actually trained critics or successful writers, you probably shouldn't be so quick to accuse a work of bad writing when its much more likely that your personal biases are interfering with your amateur judgement of the material

Sorry, but I disagree. People are and should be allowed to state their opinion on something, particularly if they back it up with arguments, even more so if they listen to counter-arguments. This is especially true when it comes to something as subjective as film or TV shows, since there really isn't an objective 'right' answer.

Secondly, I have a Masters Degree in Film, Television and Media Studies, which required me to write and publish a thesis (which covered aspects of what makes a narrative 'good'). I got an A for it and have a degree. While it might not reach the giddy heights of some dude with a regular magazine column, I assume this means you now hold my opinions in higher esteem?

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Like I'm not sure how to put this nicely, I am not a smart person and I still grokked it very quickly in suboptimal conditions, it is straight up not a complex narrative when you realize that the disorientation is the loving point

If I decide to make a really, really boring movie, and I succeed completely, does that somehow mean that the movie is good and immune to criticism?

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

"I do not like thing" is not the same as"thing is bad"

It can be for a subjective thing. If you say "the writing is great", then you won't have to qualify it for me to me to understand that this means "in my opinion".

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

No, it comes from 2.0, too. 2.0 introduces the four Adams and Unit 01's visual link to them. It introduces the UN and their limit on Evangelions. Even 1.0 has the different skin tone and the conspicuous shot where the lights don't fall, therefore avoiding entirely the situation where Unit 01 moves to protect Shinji. When Unit 01 kills Zereul, it does it because of Shinji's will. An Evangelion on the moon also comes from 1.0 and 2.0 has the bit about it being a true Evangelion. Literally two of those points (Mark 09 and Evangelion 13) are new elements from 3.0. One of the first shots of 1.0 is the crucifix outline on a hillside and blood-red oceans.

Anyway, you said contradictions, not because it "doesn't form any coherent theory or narrative" or "failed to make me emotionally or intellectually invested." At this stage, the narrative seems coherent, if almost entirely in the background. The second point is more of a personal thing. You should speak plainly, so we might understand what you actually mean. It's okay to admit you just don't like it instead of trying to dress it up in this weird argument where you keep shifting the reasoning why its bad, eventually coming back to using long phrases to just say 'I didn't like it, it doesn't work for me.'

How does it affect anything? Let's see, top of my head... Kaworu goes with Shinji because he believes the Spear of Cassius to be with Lillith's corpse. With Cassius and Longinus, they can undo Third Impact. However, Kaworu is wrong, seemingly because Gendo altered or transformed the spears in some way (we know the Spear exists because the Lance is in Lillith and he uses a very different weapon against Unit 01 at the end of 2.0). The actual specifics are unimportant because, as Tuxedo Catfish says, Evangelion 3.0 is just a very different film. What matters to that scene as a consequence is that something is obviously very wrong, but Shinji ('manning up') pushes forward and onward anyway, and begins Fourth Impact.

I don't even particularly like 3.0, and I think part of the reason why 4.0 has taken so long is because 3.0 has left everything with a lot of ground to cover. But it also wouldn't surprise me at all if 4.0 doesn't bring any of this to the foreground and keeps its focus on Shinji as 3.0 did.

Noted, it's been a long time since I saw 2.0 and 3.0 so I missed that some of those came up earlier.

That said, as you noted, most of those things have been in the background, acting more as tantalizing clues that something is different (eg, we're in a time loop), while they are far more in the foreground in Evangelion 3.0 - so much so that we, as the audience, can only tell that something should or shouldn't be done because we have a character actually telling us in the moment. "Pull out the spears Shinji" - oh, ok, apparently he should do that because it's a good thing. "No, don't pull them out, it's a trick!" - oh, ok, I guess it's a trick and a bad thing will happen.

It would have more impact on the audience if, say, simply SEEING the spears and Lilith gave us hope that Shinji could reverse 3rd impact, because we had prior knowledge that that was a property that the spears had. Or we had that sinking feeling when we, due to prior knowledge, realize it's actually a trick, but that Shinji's not noticing and ignoring Kaoru's warnings.

SHINJI doesn't need to know these things of course, but for the audience, we should.
Except of course if your goal is to make the audience feel Shinji's confusion, but as I said, I feel that's too high a price to pay.

Soul Reaver fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 03:59

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

I found it pretty plausible that an emotionally vulnerable 14-year-old rejected by and cut off from everyone he's ever known, and then pushed towards a certain course of action with assurances that it will make everything all right, would pursue that course of action even if it's objectively a really stupid idea.

Kaworu's role in Rebuild 3 borders on love bombing, a tactic for cult indoctrination where someone (usually as part of a group) offers a new recruit constant signs of complete, unconditional love and acceptance in order to quickly build trust and a feeling of unity, without a real foundation for it.

Kaworu promises Shinji a way to get back something he lost with absolute confidence and is faltering, silent, and confused when he reverses course. (We don't learn anything about Kaworu's backstory here, really, arguably even less than in the TV series, but it seems likely that he's at least partly a victim himself, and at any rate he's also being manipulated.)

It's not surprising that Shinji trusts Kaworu when Kaworu tells him exactly what he wants to hear as if it's the gospel truth, and loses confidence in him when he mutters and hesitates when the goal is right in front of them, in an extremely brief window of opportunity, to actually go through with it.

I can't think of any other decisions in Rebuild 3 that I would characterize as "stupid." People not talking to Shinji at the beginning is completely understandable, they're a volatile mix of angry, betrayed, and guilty and Shinji's only there for a short time. They're not sure what they're going to do with him or if they can trust him, and it kind of seems like they only even brought him back to keep him away from Gendo.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 04:05

The REAL Goobusters: Apr 25, 2008

You can state your opinion on whatever you want of course. I still believe your (soul reaver and yinlock) opinion�s are both wrong.

# ? Jul 10, 2019 04:07

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Soul Reaver posted:

If I decide to make a really, really boring movie, and I succeed completely, does that somehow mean that the movie is good and immune to criticism?

I don't think a movie that's boring in its entirety would be good, but I think it's possible to deploy boredom (in the form of repetition, or stillness, or having a character talk at length about an uninteresting topic...) in order to get the viewer in a certain emotional state (maybe you want to suddenly jolt them to attention later) or to communicate an idea that is, itself, interesting (maybe the character giving the boring lecture doesn't really believe in what he's saying, and that's why he's not able to sell you on it, and you're making a movie about his crisis of faith.)

# ? Jul 10, 2019 04:08

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# ? May 24, 2024 16:00

Milkfred E. Moore: Aug 27, 2006; 'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Shinji, at the end of 2.0: "I don't care what happens to the world, I'm going to save Rei!" As the world breaks apart around him and Ritsuko says it's the end of the world.
Shinji, during 3.0: "I don't care what happens, I'm going to fix things!" Almost ends the world - again.

Soul Reaver posted:

If I decide to make a really, really boring movie, and I succeed completely, does that somehow mean that the movie is good and immune to criticism?

Okay, so, I feel like if you have that Masters you should maybe be able to see the purpose of films to be more than, like, 'Does this excite me personally?'

Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jul 10, 2019

# ? Jul 10, 2019 04:13

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Neon Genesis Evangelion megathread: Death & Rebirth of the author

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