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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Shinji, at the end of 2.0: "I don't care what happens to the world, I'm going to save Rei!" As the world breaks apart around him and Ritsuko says it's the end of the world. "Again" seems a little misleading in this context; one of those is a twisted way of granting his wish, the other one is "under the circumstances, your wish was impossible and was never going to happen in the first place." Also he straight-up very much does care what happens in Rebuild 3; he never says what you're paraphrasing there, or anything else like it. He doesn't rebuff Asuka on the basis on not caring what happens, but on the basis (as ridiculous as it may be in context) that she doesn't know what she's talking about and should just let him handle it. (To which she rightly calls him out for acting childish. He's projecting his own uncertainty and fear of the future onto her.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 04:21
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Okay, so, I feel like if you have that Masters you should maybe be able to see the purpose of films to be more than, like, 'Does this excite me personally?' There are some films that I don't particularly enjoy that I still respect on a technical level, but Rebuild 3.0 isn't one of them. There are aspects for it that are well done, but everything taken together, there are too many things where I think "I would have done that differently" to make me consider it a good film.
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Jul 10, 2019 04:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"Again" seems a little misleading in this context; one of those is a twisted way of granting his wish, the other one is "under the circumstances, your wish was impossible and was never going to happen in the first place." Yeah, good point. I couldn't recall his dialogue during the scene. Either way, my point was more that this Shinji is more inclined to just try and man up and push through, even when he doesn't have a good idea of what is going on. Rebuild 2, I think he can be forgiven for not having any idea that Unit 01 would suddenly deify itself and destroy the world. In Rebuild 3, he has something of an idea, but also actively pushes past people who tell him to stop, including Kaworu.
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Jul 10, 2019 04:32
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the one character bit I liked was shinji's freakout at the end, because he's fuckin' tired of people saying "shinji do the thing" and then "wait no don't do the thing drat it shinji you ruined everything" immediately after e: basically all this could have been avoided if WILLE didn't treat shinji like dogshit right out of the gate and back him into a corner emotionally but oops Yinlock fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 04:32
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Shinji, at the end of 2.0: "I don't care what happens to the world, I'm going to save Rei!" As the world breaks apart around him and Ritsuko says it's the end of the world. In one of these examples Shinji knows what he wants and pursues it regardless of the consequences. In another Shinji knows what he wants but is told by someone he trusts that it might not actually be what he wants but he stupidly goes for it anyways. There was no time limit and they could always come back later so any sane person no matter how desperate would have just waited a few minutes in order to make sure they made the right decision. Had they spent half the movie struggling and suffering to get there and there was likely no way to come back again the decision would have made more sense but that’s not what happened. Lots of moments in the movie are like that. They’re decently motivated in a general way but don’t really make sense in that exact context. See also: Not telling Shinji he caused 3rd Impact. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 04:32
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Rebuild 3.0 gave us this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGRxRbjEEUs&hd=1 so it's gotta be a great movie (legit tho I don't remember anything about it anymore other than the basic premise, but I also binged 1.0 - 3.0 so maybe it was information overload)
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Jul 10, 2019 04:36
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readingatwork posted:In one of these examples Shinji knows what he wants and pursued it regardless of the consequences. In another Shinji knows what he wants but is told by someone he trusts that it might not actually be what he wants but he stupidly goes for it anyways. There was no time limit and they could always come back later so any sane person no matter how desperate would have just waited a few minutes in order to make sure they made the right decision. Had they spent half the movie struggling and suffering to get there and there was likely no way to come back again the decision would have made more sense but that’s not what happened. Doesn't Shinji have an incredibly visceral psychotic break/panic attack just shortly before getting into the Evangelion? Brought on by Fuyutski telling him about Yui and Rei, implying that Gendo told him to do it? I think his mental state might not be conducive to making smart, rational decisions. Shinji wants his absolution and he wants it now. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 04:36
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Doesn't Shinji have an incredibly visceral psychotic break/panic attack just shortly before getting into the Evangelion? Brought on by Fuyutski telling him about Yui and Rei, implying that Gendo told him to do it? I think his mental state might not be conducive to making smart, rational decisions. after that and the heaps of emotional abuse shinji pushing through with the Bad Idea is just him being like "no i'm loving tired of you cryptic shits who ruin my life and never tell me what's going on, i'm doing it gently caress you" unfortunately this particular cryptic poo poo was on his side
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Jul 10, 2019 04:41
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Yinlock posted:the one character bit I liked was shinji's freakout at the end, because he's fuckin' tired of people saying "shinji do the thing" and then "wait no don't do the thing drat it shinji you ruined everything" immediately after Asuka could have also told him the truth when she was fighting him in the pit and probably gotten him to stop but instead just kept calling him a names instead. Milkfred E. Moore posted:Doesn't Shinji have an incredibly visceral psychotic break/panic attack just shortly before getting into the Evangelion? Brought on by Fuyutski telling him about Yui and Rei, implying that Gendo told him to do it? I think his mental state might not be conducive to making smart, rational decisions. Shinji wants his absolution and he wants it now. Again, it’s a large scale vs small scale motivation issue. It made sense for Shinji to want to 4th impact the world back to normal. It didn’t make sense for him to rush in at that particular moment without first talking things over. It’s a small thing in a vacuum but these kinds of issues add up quickly and there are a lot of them in 3.0.
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Jul 10, 2019 04:47
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readingatwork posted:See also: Not telling Shinji he caused 3rd Impact. A lot of criticism levelled at Evangelion 3.0 is along the lines of "why didn't they just tell Shinji everything right away?", but that's one thing I don't inherently have an issue with. There are plenty of reasons, both practical and emotional, why they might not want to tell Shinji what's going on (not least of which that he got snatched away in short order by Gendo's intervention). The real problem is that this scene destroys our sympathy for a lot of characters. They may have justifiable emotional reasons to distrust Shinji - even to doubt that he is still the 'real' Shinji - but we, as the audience, don't share those feelings. Had we seen their tragedies and lived them with the characters, their rejection of Shinji would be a more effective scene, as we find ourselves intuitively understanding why the characters react as they do, while still sympathizing with Shinji as he is rejected and alienated
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Jul 10, 2019 04:53
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Is it clarified whether Misato and co. actually wanted to get Shinji back, or is it just some side-effect related to them needing to jam Unit 01 into the Wunder?
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Jul 10, 2019 04:58
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comedy option: the next movie is actually a big reset that turns into tv evangelion, it was a prequel all along austin, even my immediate family bought it
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Jul 10, 2019 05:02
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So Shinji as kamikaze pilot is a cool read that tuxedo catfish (I think?) made and I'm curious if there are any articles or books that deal with how the immediate family of these pilots dealt with their kids being put into these situations if they did at all. I imagine by being part of military organizations so much of it was kept from them.
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Jul 10, 2019 05:32
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Shinji, at the end of 2.0: "I don't care what happens to the world, I'm going to save Rei!" As the world breaks apart around him and Ritsuko says it's the end of the world.
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Jul 10, 2019 11:36
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the past three pages of arguments have taught me that I was probably right to completely ignore the rebuild films and focus entirely on the original stuff also, planting my flag on the side of "EVAs acting like beast wars transformers is, in fact, dumb"
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Jul 10, 2019 11:53
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The show's about what it's like to become a giant monster (adult) to deal with new and unknown situations. The movies are about how once you get there it's a good idea to have a support system of other people to help you when you have problems because a single person can't do everything. Feel free to skip if you want but it's pretty fun.
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Jul 10, 2019 12:38
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At the very least, the rebuilds have some incredible shots.
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Jul 10, 2019 13:04
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Blaziken386 posted:the past three pages of arguments have taught me that I was probably right to completely ignore the rebuild films and focus entirely on the original stuff This is dumb. Just watch the movies
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Jul 10, 2019 13:26
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:And just because that horrible term 'world building' got thrown around like it means anything, allow me to posit that the world building within the Rebuild films is better than the world that's presented in the original series. World building (ugh) doesn't matter much to stories. Neon Genesis Evangelion is great despite or because of it's shaky, inconsistent world building. It's also had over a decade of people fitting all the pieces together in a way that makes sense, and the thing I noted watching through the series about two weeks ago is how little information you get on, well, anything. None of this is true. Consistent worldbuilding is one of the things that distinguishes science fiction as a genre and Evangelion is, among many other things, a science fiction story. Evangelion has always been a very consistent story outside of things like the sizes of the Evangelions themselves which are cosmetic and don't matter all that much anyway. What Evangelion purposefully did was to not elaborate on its ancient aliens backstory because it, ultimately, did not matter to the story being told. But the worldbuilding itself is super consistent. There is an absurd, almost pornographic level of detail to the backgrounds and setting information. That plus the atmospheric shots portray Neo-Tokyo 3 as this hauntingly lonely place in which the humans are a secondary concern to the technology of the city and its secrets. If you want to make the argument that backstory doesn't matter then that's a different discussion but the idea that worldbuilding doesn't matter to stories is absurd. Characters and plot events don't happen in a vacuum, you might as well be saying that context "doesn't matter much" to discussion. GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 14:42
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GimmickMan posted:None of this is true. Interesting way to sum up your own post. Is everything permitted? quote:Consistent worldbuilding is one of the things that distinguishes science fiction as a genre- What? No, it's not. Especially when most would consider Lord of the Rings as the ur-example of worldbuilding. quote:and Evangelion is, among many other things, a science fiction story. Only because 'science fantasy' comes under the sci-fi umbrella. quote:Evangelion has always been a very consistent story- Why do the Angels attack Tokyo-3?
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Jul 10, 2019 15:59
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Interesting way to sum up your own post. Is everything permitted? The answer to that one does always seem to be 'because they think Adam is there, probably because SEELE and NERV tricked them'.
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Jul 10, 2019 16:25
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Why do the Angels attack Tokyo-3? When the Angel attacks the UN fleet in Episode 8, that one is definitely responding to Adam and that's why Kaji bails on everyone kaji really loving sucks
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Jul 10, 2019 16:35
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Interesting way to sum up your own post. Is everything permitted? To be fair, you were right that the audience mostly isn't told anything about why anything happens. But my points still stand. Sci-fi explores how humans adapt to and use technology and this is a show where the illuminati experiment with technology they barely understand to gain immortality. For most of its run Evangelion is a character drama with giant robots, but EoE presents the question of whether instrumentality is a desirable evolution for humanity or not and Shinji decides it isn't. It's not hard sci-fi but it follows its own set of rules quite consistently. Instead of the Spice or the Three Laws or Minovsky Particles we have AT Fields and instrumentality is just following up on the premise that we all have barriers separating us from each other. It's dressed up in a bunch of religious symbolism and psychobabble but it's sci-fi at its core. Other people have already responded to your question about the Angels. Kaworu himself explicitly states that Gendo played everyone, SEELE included, when he got to Lilith and realized it wasn't Adam. I don't see what you not liking the worldbuilding in LotR has to anything to do with Evangelion. Edit: I want to apologize for the tone of my posts. I just think it's super condescending to everybody who poured their souls on Evangelion to say the worldbuilding doesn't matter when it would've been so much easier for everybody at Gainax to just not bother being consistent and do whatever because they don't want to explain anything anyway. It legitimately upsets me. GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 18:45
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On the topic of world building. Something that's more important to me in worldbuilding other than Why Does The Spear Of Longinus Do That or What Is An AT Field. How Did They Digitize A Soul is just like, how do people live in this world? What is the day to day? And the show really loving nails that. We all know the constant cicadas that the kids say annoying them, and the general apathy of the students, and the emptiness of practically all of Japan and it just feels like a world breathing through an iron lung. I just got to Episode 12 in my rewatch where we see the awakening of Adam and Gendo and Fuyutsuki go back to the South Pole and it's a complete hell word, of red seas and strange white almost tooth like spires coming out of the ocean. I love that, that rules! There's also little bits of how the world is responding to the arrival of angels. The United States is the last big hold on developing an Evangelion of their own, but Gendo says that due to their hated of low employment rates, they'll cave eventually. Or the Jet Alone episode where we see that there are rival companies vying for NERV's contract with the UN, I love that stuff and there's a lot of texture there. I'm not interested in how they got a .exe file of Rei's brain to put in the dummy plug, I care about that we see a Sega Saturn in Misato's apartment and that Asuka's playing it.
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Jul 10, 2019 19:21
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Blaziken386 posted:the past three pages of arguments have taught me that I was probably right to completely ignore the rebuild films and focus entirely on the original stuff Watch the movies, this slapfight has gotten to the point where posters are citing grades they got on papers in college as parts of their arguments.
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Jul 10, 2019 19:37
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Misato's Yebisu is an actual, real beer that they put in without permission from the company and then had to change to a different, made up name afterwards for obvious reasons. Then they snuck Yebisu back in for the home media releases. The worldbuilding in Evangelion rules.
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Jul 10, 2019 19:39
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Midjack posted:Watch the movies, this slapfight has gotten to the point where posters are citing grades they got on papers in college as parts of their arguments. In Soul Reaper’s defense that was in response to a really obnoxious callout about people without certain credentials abstaining from criticism.
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Jul 10, 2019 20:00
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With posts like these, who needs SMG. Though, honestly, it's nice seeing this level of discussion about the rebuilds.
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Jul 10, 2019 20:06
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I think the soul digitization thing is interesting. It's explicitly established as something they did in episode 13, but you don't find out about the devastating effect it has on the subject until towards the end of the series.
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Jul 10, 2019 20:13
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I'll be honest starting at "it's bad writing to sell toys" and then quoting a number that counts everything from the 18 years before its first appearance to support the claim that the cat was an attempt to make big money, wishing that they hadn't brought up the merch thing and then finally ending up at "fine, it isn't bad writing, it just sacrifices too much of what I personally like about Eva in service of putting the audience in Shinji's position of being really confused by how different everything is" was a rollercoaster ride for a thing that started with offhandedly saying the cat Eva is ridiculous because not only was it a cat but also it's armour didn't rip and tear when it changed. The real important thing to come out of the last couple of pages is that holy poo poo 11.5 of the estimated $16.3 billion Eva has made as a franchise comes from pachinko sales alone what the gently caress.
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Jul 10, 2019 20:46
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Keeping the goals and motivations of the angels unclear is a reference to Gerry Anderson's UFO. 
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Jul 10, 2019 20:57
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EthanSteele posted:I'll be honest starting at "it's bad writing to sell toys" and then quoting a number that counts everything from the 18 years before its first appearance to support the claim that the cat was an attempt to make big money, wishing that they hadn't brought up the merch thing and then finally ending up at "fine, it isn't bad writing, it just sacrifices too much of what I personally like about Eva in service of putting the audience in Shinji's position of being really confused by how different everything is" was a rollercoaster ride for a thing that started with offhandedly saying the cat Eva is ridiculous because not only was it a cat but also it's armour didn't rip and tear when it changed. Welcome to why Konami no longer makes Video Games. Pachinko makes ridiculous money
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Jul 10, 2019 21:11
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The one thing the last previous pages have made me wonder is if the Rebuilds could, at some point down the road, get a treatment similar to Gundam Unicorn/Gundam Origin (started as movies/OVA's, before getting "remade" for TV).
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Jul 10, 2019 21:14
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Zore posted:Welcome to why Konami no longer makes Video Games. Pachinko makes ridiculous money That's because the modern pachinko machines are essentially slot machines and their business model has just enough deniability to not be legally considered gambling.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:34
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Light Gun Man posted:Keeping the goals and motivations of the angels unclear is a reference to Gerry Anderson's UFO. Text popping up in the opening too! Anno is an outrageously self-indulgent artist and it rules. Like all the boats and stuff on strings in Rebuild 3 and the 3+1 preview is just him deciding to make the visible strings on old tv special effects diegetic. Mari using a steering wheel has a sequence that is almost a shot for shot recreation of some 70s live action mecha thing where the guy pilots the mech with a steering wheel. Dude knows what he likes.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:39
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EthanSteele posted:Text popping up in the opening too! Anno is an outrageously self-indulgent artist and it rules. Like all the boats and stuff on strings in Rebuild 3 and the 3+1 preview is just him deciding to make the visible strings on old tv special effects diegetic. Mari using a steering wheel has a sequence that is almost a shot for shot recreation of some 70s live action mecha thing where the guy pilots the mech with a steering wheel. Dude knows what he likes. Don't forget that the Evangelions are literally people in rubber suits.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:41
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Wark Say posted:The one thing the last previous pages have made me wonder is if the Rebuilds could, at some point down the road, get a treatment similar to Gundam Unicorn/Gundam Origin (started as movies/OVA's, before getting "remade" for TV). If Rebuild's glacial release schedule is anything to go by, we could maybe look forward to a TV remake sometime around 2050...
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Jul 10, 2019 21:46
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You know it's a bit weird the the opening song/video for Evangelion pretty much gives away the third impact
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Jul 10, 2019 21:48
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So just finished the TV series and EoE on netflix. I liked it for the most part, but I really don't get why Shinji felt so torn up about Kowaru a dude he met a day a go that was nice to him and also made him horny but was also an Angel sent to gently caress things up. Like Toji exists and what happened there was way worse.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:55
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Evangelion is bad at telling us how much time has passed in a single episode, i assume he got to know him for at minimum a week
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Jul 10, 2019 21:56
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