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KidDynamite posted:So just finished the TV series and EoE on netflix. I liked it for the most part, but I really don't get why Shinji felt so torn up about Kowaru a dude he met a day a go that was nice to him and also made him horny but was also an Angel sent to gently caress things up. Like Toji exists and what happened there was way worse. Probably because 1) Shinji deliberately murders Kowaru who wasn't even in an Eva and wasn't fighting him. 2) Has lost basically everyone else in his life at that point. Tokyo 3 is all but destroyed, Rei is dead (and has showed him how monstrous everyone at NERV is), Asuka and Toji are hospitalized because of him, and all his school friends have moved away. Hell even Pen-Pen is gone. 3) Kowaru is the only person to ever actually offer Shinji unconditional love which is something he has spent the entire series yearning for.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:01
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it's still exceedingly obvious from second 1 that something is Wrong with kaworu though like rei was too inhuman to hit the uncanny valley but kaworu nails it I can never bring myself to give a poo poo about him because of it
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Jul 10, 2019 22:21
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Shinji is so desperate for any kind of connection by that point, since everyone else who might have been able to sympathize is either gone or is too lost in their own personal hell, that it doesn't really matter to him how alien Kaworu is or how sudden this all is. He's just elated to have someone who's finally telling him what he wants to hear, while probably even willfully ignoring the signs that something was wrong, only to have the rug pulled out from under him by the truth. I do personally feel like episode 24 is a bit of a mess and is the one part of the series that didn't quite hold up for me on my last rewatch, but I think Shinji's quick attachment to Kaworu is pretty understandable given the circumstances.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:27
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KidDynamite posted:So just finished the TV series and EoE on netflix. I liked it for the most part, but I really don't get why Shinji felt so torn up about Kowaru a dude he met a day a go that was nice to him and also made him horny but was also an Angel sent to gently caress things up. Like Toji exists and what happened there was way worse. I think it’s important to realize it’s the first time Shinji himself is the one to make the call to murder someone. The Toji thing was more brutal, but Shinji wasn’t the one who actually did it - it was the dummy plug assuming control. With Kowaru, Shinji is the one who makes the decision to pull the trigger, that’s what makes it so brutal to him. Also of course it’s to the one person that actually has offered him unconditional love, something he’s seeked out for the entirety of the series up to that point. He finally got what he wanted, but then was put into a position where he had to force himself to lose it.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:30
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Asuka is comatose, Rei loving died, all his classmates are gone
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Jul 10, 2019 23:03
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esselfortium posted:Shinji is so desperate for any kind of connection by that point, since everyone else who might have been able to sympathize is either gone or is too lost in their own personal hell, that it doesn't really matter to him how alien Kaworu is or how sudden this all is. He's just elated to have someone who's finally telling him what he wants to hear, while probably even willfully ignoring the signs that something was wrong, only to have the rug pulled out from under him by the truth. yeah I understand why it happens, just saying that red-eyed boy ain't right
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Jul 10, 2019 23:06
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Episode 5 thoughts: This episode was not that memorable to be honest. Maybe I just don't care about Rei at all yet and will later. I was really struck by Misato and Ritsuko basically treating Shinji like a work friend though. I guess that's how they deal with sending children to war, right? You don't have to think about "Shinji might die" unless he's actually fighting an angel. At other times, you can just compartmentalize and think of him as a kid from work, like an intern or something like that. I don't think the show has hinted at this that much, but I get the impression Misato has convinced herself that if she does her job right Shinji won't die, which is one way to deal with it.
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Jul 10, 2019 23:09
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I know what you mean with Shinji being treated as a co-worker but part of me thinks it's cute (if not a little insidious) Like, him with his big hard hat and drinking coffee with them is definitely a sort of bringing him into the fold. Shinji has decided to stay at NERV and they're showing him respect as one of the gang, answering his questions (I love that he leans forward to read the monitor like has any idea of what that information means) and asking what's bothering him. Like they care enough about him to tell that being around Gendo bothers him, telling him that he burned his hands. There is definitely a bit of Ritsuko playing him though with the whole "Hey, go visit Rei at her place and give her this" of trying to get Shinji involved, get the two of them talking to each other, maybe her devotion to the project will rub off a bit. And I think that helps Shinji feel better about things, and lord knows he needs to feel better, but yeah their intentions are questionable at best. I'm halfway through my rewatch and still trying to figure out what I think about Rei. rei's weird
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Jul 10, 2019 23:18
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It’s really hard to care about Rei as she is more a plot device than a character. The rebuilds try a little harder but then she kind of just reverts to her previous role in 3.0
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Jul 10, 2019 23:29
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Blaziken386 posted:the past three pages of arguments have taught me that I was probably right to completely ignore the rebuild films and focus entirely on the original stuff I've been ranting against Rebuild 3.0 quite a lot but I still think you should watch the movies. Even if you get nothing else out of it, you'll get a spectacle and some really batshit crazy designs. Rebuild 3.0 is divisive. Some people really like it and the direction it went. You might be missing out by not watching it. Even I think it's interesting to talk about and analyze WHY I didn't like it. EthanSteele posted:I'll be honest starting at "it's bad writing to sell toys" and then quoting a number that counts everything from the 18 years before its first appearance to support the claim that the cat was an attempt to make big money, wishing that they hadn't brought up the merch thing and then finally ending up at "fine, it isn't bad writing, it just sacrifices too much of what I personally like about Eva in service of putting the audience in Shinji's position of being really confused by how different everything is" was a rollercoaster ride for a thing that started with offhandedly saying the cat Eva is ridiculous because not only was it a cat but also it's armour didn't rip and tear when it changed. My posts are spread across multiple pages so I'll try to summarize everything I've said. I think I need to preface that any judgement of 'good' or 'bad' mentioned in the below is subjective. There seem to be a number of people that seem to believe that when I say something is 'good' or 'bad' I'm trying to say that's objective. It's not. It's a subjective opinion, but one that I try to support with arguments. Films are subjective. Art is subjective. My argument started with me saying that the preview for Evangelion 3.0+1.0 looked bad (because it seemed to be following the same vein as Evangelion 3.0). The reasons I gave for the above was a lack of pacing/buildup and identifiable stakes during the setpiece battles, very blatant CGI, and ridiculous mecha designs, as well as a presentation that failed to make me personally care about anything that was happening. I went on to comment on 3.0, stating it suffers from a 'tell, don't show' style of storytelling, which is usually considered bad writing in a visual medium such a film. I then commented how 3.0 would have been a better film if we had actually seen the events in the timeskip, as it would have lent additional weight and meaning to the events we see in the film (as well as eliminated the need to tell rather than show) I made a bitter throwaway comment about an Evangelion turning into a sort of cat during 'beast mode' in 3.0 (something I think looks ridiculous and out-of-place) Someone decided to engage with me on this one and say that because Evangelion is full of fantastical elements surely this is just fine. I responded by stating it wasn't, on the basis that it runs contrary to established worldbuilding done by Evangelion in the past (relating to the Evangelion Unit's physical shape, lack of transforming abilities, and nature of their armour), and how consistent worldbuilding is important to preserve that artifice of a fantasy/science fiction setting for the audience. I felt that consistency was compromised by this event which, to date, has not actually added anything of interest or meaning to the plot of the film or series beyond it being a thing that happened. While some explanations were offered on WHY a cat transformation could happen 'in universe', I remained unconvinced that there is a well-thought-out in-universe or plot-related reason for it, as I felt a more likely logical explanation was an extra-diegetic one (unfortunately the one I then mentioned, again as a bitter throwaway, was 'to sell toys', though there are other possibilities too, such as a writers room all going "wouldn't it look cool?!" or something to that effect) that didn't bother to take the previous worldbuilding into account. Note this is impossible to prove either way without literally knowing what was going on in the script writers' heads at the time this scene was put in. Because of my mistake of not simply leaving it as being 'bad writing', people decided to zero on on the toys comment. When someone said that they felt the movies made more money than toys ever did, I felt the need to correct them as I knew that the Evangelion franchise moves an almost criminal amounts of merch. I did point out in the figures that I was using covered the entire franchise, not just 3.0, but felt that showing that merchandise (even excluding Pachinko machines) made considerably more money than the movies and TV show put together, was interesting. Note I wasn't trying to use it as evidence that the cat transformation was specifically put in there to sell toys since that literally is impossible to prove for sure, but rather to correct someone who thought the movies made more money than the merc. One interesting post posited that maybe Evangelion 3.0 wasn't trying for consistent worldbuilding and instead was trying for a more dreamlike logic, with consistency in aesthetic rather than substance, for the purposes of illustrating Shinji's alienation. I conceded this was a good point and a possible reason why the events in 3.0 feel disjointed from what came before it. However, I felt that if the conscious decision had been made to eschew consistent worldbuilding for this purpose, then the cost of that was too high because, going back to my initial argument, it leads to 'tell, don't show' storytelling, removes our understanding of the stakes of big action setpieces, and so on. (I also mentioned that I have a film degree, but I only did that because I strongly disagreed with someone's argument that we should only listen to the opinions of published critics. What I was trying to point out was that everyone is allowed to have an opinion, and we should engage with their arguments about that opinion, not whether the person has a degree, or is a published author, or whatever). That sort of sums it up. Regardless of if I enjoyed Rebuild 3.0 as a film, it's interesting to think and talk about, and it's given me more mileage out of that than most films do. Soul Reaver fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 23:34
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Personally I really like the spinoff movies of the Evangelion pachinko franchise.
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Jul 10, 2019 23:47
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yeah for better or worse you can't accuse 3.0 of being boring by any meansExpect My Mom posted:There is definitely a bit of Ritsuko playing him though with the whole "Hey, go visit Rei at her place and give her this" of trying to get Shinji involved, get the two of them talking to each other, maybe her devotion to the project will rub off a bit. And I think that helps Shinji feel better about things, and lord knows he needs to feel better, but yeah their intentions are questionable at best. the main problem with ritusko trying to be benevolent for once is that she(like most of NERV) kind of lacks empathy entirely and is insanely bad at it e: like the only life lesson shinji ultimately learns from NERV is "how to be a self-absorbed jackass at the worst possible times" Yinlock fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 00:37
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Expect My Mom posted:What Is An AT Field I forget where I heard all this or whether it's in the text but an AT Field is an "Absolute Terror" Field, and it's the physical and spiritual final barrier that separates one person from another and lets humans exist as individuals. The terror portion being the ol Hedgehog Dilemma stuff about how people are scared of the idea of another person having total access to their inner world. Now, how that relates to EVA's and Angels using them as weapons and shields, idk but it does help explain why Rei shows up to everyone in EOE as a loved one to turn them into goo. She's breaching everyone's AT fields and turning them all into one entity of orange goo.
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Jul 11, 2019 00:44
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Each angel is a powerful but entirely solitary race all of its own, they have very strong barriers around themselves that they don't let down for anyone.
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Jul 11, 2019 00:56
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Darth Walrus posted:Don't forget that the Evangelions are literally people in rubber suits. 
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Jul 11, 2019 01:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Each angel is a powerful but entirely solitary race all of its own, they have very strong barriers around themselves that they don't let down for anyone. Which I guess makes Gaghiel and Matarael the friendliest and most outgoing angels.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:00
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The metaphor for individuality being both a defense and a weapon (that is, a source of hurt) is perfectly consistent imo. In-universe Angels and by extensions EVA are both alien to life as we know it and also strikingly similar to human beings, so in terms of power they're able to do completely bullshit wizardry with what is just a faint sense of unease in humans.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:08
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Angels are just REALLY scared. All the time. Forever. Which is why there's just tons of screaming.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:59
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Geometrically, mostly.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:09
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imagine if you were an angel but a kind of lame one, so upon your creation you instinctively choose the form of a giant butt that hovers around and weeps golden turds that emit piercing screams, all the while hiding behind a force field so nobody will be able to enter your inner sanctum and find out why you look like a giant making GBS threads rear end
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Jul 11, 2019 02:18
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Intel&Sebastian posted:but it does help explain why Rei shows up to everyone in EOE as a loved one to turn them into goo. She's breaching everyone's AT fields and turning them all into one entity of orange goo.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:20
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SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:imagine if you were an angel but a kind of lame one, so upon your creation you instinctively choose the form of a giant butt that hovers around and weeps golden turds that emit piercing screams, all the while hiding behind a force field so nobody will be able to enter your inner sanctum and find out why you look like a giant making GBS threads rear end Please stop doxxing me.
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Jul 11, 2019 04:30
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So apparently there's something called Evangelion Death True Squared, because I guess this series always wanted to have dumb Kingdom Hearts titles for its poo poo. What is this, and should I view this in my rewatch over Death/Rebirth or End of Evangelion.
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Jul 11, 2019 07:06
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Appoda posted:So apparently there's something called Evangelion Death True Squared, because I guess this series always wanted to have dumb Kingdom Hearts titles for its poo poo. Death (True)2 is just the Death part of D&R. No use in dropping in the 15 minutes of EoE when the loving film is right next on the stream queue, basically. So it goes that they released D&R. Then at some point they decided to redo it with the new footage from the last part of the series stripped out, creating Death(True). THEN they decided "no maybe some of it should stay" and re-edited it back in for Death(True)2. So just watch Death/Rebirth, but switch over to the end credits of Rebirth after Death wraps so you can listen to Tamashii no Rufuran, then jump headfirst into EoE. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 07:17
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s really hard to care about Rei as she is more a plot device than a character. "...Flowers, so many the same, so many without purpose Sky, sky of red, red the color, the color I hate Liquid flows, it drips, ripples, and pours Blood, scent of blood, woman who does not bleed [this sorta connects to the trans thing for me even though I know that was not intended] ...This is that which is mine My life, my heart I am a vessel for my thoughts The entry plug, the throne of the soul Who is this? This is me Who am I? What am I? What am I? What am I? I am I. This object that is, is myself That which forms me This is the self that can be seen, and yet this is not like that which is myself A strange feeling..." Then it ends with her listing people in order of how close she feels to them, ending with Commander Ikari (right after Asuka, fun fact: Rei never ever refers to Asuka by name throughout the entire show). Which is reflected in the next episode when Shinji asks what his dad is like and she replies "I don't know." Anyway this got kind of rambly because I'm not the best at forum posts but I hope I adequately expressed how I feel. And I really like this quote from her Japanese voice actor: "Rei's beauty comes from the truth that she has feelings. When she cried, it meant the waters of the pool were coming out at last. The struggle to draw your feelings forth, the reconciliation between your surface and your depth—that, I believe, is where we truly become alive, truly become human beings. And when I found the warmth below the coldness in her words, I synchronized with Rei for the first time. And it felt so good that I want to say thank you, from the bottom of my own heart."
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Jul 11, 2019 08:19
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SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:imagine if you were an angel but a kind of lame one, so upon your creation you instinctively choose the form of a giant butt that hovers around and weeps golden turds that emit piercing screams, all the while hiding behind a force field so nobody will be able to enter your inner sanctum and find out why you look like a giant making GBS threads rear end
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Jul 11, 2019 09:06
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SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:imagine if you were an angel but a kind of lame one, so upon your creation you instinctively choose the form of a giant butt that hovers around and weeps golden turds that emit piercing screams, all the while hiding behind a force field so nobody will be able to enter your inner sanctum and find out why you look like a giant making GBS threads rear end So, Matariel, basically?
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Jul 11, 2019 09:39
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Paracelsus posted:So, Matariel, basically? Matarael is extremely open and self-confident in its weird bullshit. It's why it's the only angel in the series that gets taken down with rifle fire.
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Jul 11, 2019 10:58
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weast posted:And I really like this quote from her Japanese voice actor: "Rei's beauty comes from the truth that she has feelings. When she cried, it meant the waters of the pool were coming out at last. The struggle to draw your feelings forth, the reconciliation between your surface and your depth—that, I believe, is where we truly become alive, truly become human beings. And when I found the warmth below the coldness in her words, I synchronized with Rei for the first time. And it felt so good that I want to say thank you, from the bottom of my own heart." I really like this too.
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Jul 11, 2019 12:08
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Zore posted:Probably because Is Asuka in the hospital because of him? I thought she just had a mental breakdown following the Arael/Armisael fights. Soul Reaver posted:My argument started with me saying that the preview for Evangelion 3.0+1.0 looked bad (because it seemed to be following the same vein as Evangelion 3.0). I don't want to just say "it doesn't feel like Eva" (even though it doesn't), because it doesn't even feel like movies 1 and 2. HobbitGrease fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 13:25
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HobbitGrease posted:Don't forget that Misato, his guardian for the entire series, tried to have sex with him, and his kind-of mentor Kaji is dead. I think I missed this when I watched when did it happen?
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Jul 11, 2019 14:22
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Tythas posted:I think I missed this when I watched when did it happen? (According to Evageeks, the Newtype Filmbook written with Gainax says right out that she was offering her body to him.)
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Jul 11, 2019 14:40
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Tythas posted:I think I missed this when I watched when did it happen? It’s the scene after Rei II dies where she comes into his room and sits on his bed. Then she says something like “this is all I can do to comfort you” and touches his hand. I’ve always thought the scene was more ambiguous than some Eva fans have made out (the orthodox opinion is that she was definitely proposing that they have sex at that time). While Misato certainly has encouraged Shinji to view her as a sexual object (Jesus that picture in episode 1...), and the orthodox reading certainly isn’t “wrong,” there isn’t anything in that scene that unambiguously says she was propositioning him. Her statement is vague, and I worry about anyone who thinks someone touching their hand comfortingly means they are definitely proposing sex. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 14:40
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Lol yeah that’s an insane reach.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:42
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It's a reach and also, there's their final scene in EoE which uh doesn't really play the same way if they had had sex in the series.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:51
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Nate RFB posted:It's a reach and also, there's their final scene in EoE which uh doesn't really play the same way if they had had sex in the series. I don’t think anyone thinks they actually boned, only that she offered him sex.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:51
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Ogmius815 posted:It’s the scene after Rei II dies where she comes into his room and sits on his bed. Then she says something like “this is all I can do to comfort you” and touches his hand.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:53
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The original scene is ambiguous but there's a scene in episode 25 (or 26?) of the show where she feels guilty about propositioning Shinji, making it clear that was her intention.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:59
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The idea that Eva fans project sex with mild contact is kind of an ironic thing tho.
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Jul 11, 2019 14:59
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The original scene is ambiguous but there's a scene in episode 25 (or 26?) of the show where she feels guilty about propositioning Shinji, making it clear that was her intention.
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Jul 11, 2019 15:13
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