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You see the line "kimochi waluigi" is an allusion to Y'shua bar Josef's christological message that maintaining a trim figure is critical to personal health and happiness. This is supported by the way the main cast are drawn, with healthy and realistic proportions.
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Aug 2, 2019 18:55
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jit bull transpile posted:You see the line "kimochi waluigi" is an allusion to Y'shua bar Josef's christological message that maintaining a trim figure is critical to personal health and happiness. This is supported by the way the main cast are drawn, with healthy and realistic proportions. waaaa
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Aug 2, 2019 19:02
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Invalid Validation posted:I see where they are coming from though. It’s a pretty enjoyable show and then Anno decides to go all philosophy 101 without really saying anything. I don't know, EoE unites the Freudian, religious, and interpersonal themes of the show in the metaphor of instrumentality, and then critiques and offers a clearly stated viewpoint on that state. The show has issues and is hard to read but it is saying something.
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Aug 2, 2019 19:04
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Eva’s drama comes from the demands of the story and how they conflict with the actual characters. Like yeah, the story does demand action and that the heroes figure poo poo out and then bootstrap their way into the robot to save the day. But that’s not how depression works. Depressed people can’t bootstrap into the plot. And so the entire thing goes off the rails, specifically because the audience expects a typical ending where everyone is healed by friendship or family or whatever, but that’s not what we get. The drama is in watching Shinji collapsed in front of Eva 01, too depressed and broken to move after so much death, and as a result Asuka dies. It’s actually kind of masterful how Eva manages to insert the audience’s horror over dashed expectations into the plot. It heightens the emotional impact of the story. Lol that the podcasters couldn’t get that.
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Aug 2, 2019 19:34
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Wait I always thought he couldn’t get into Unit-01 because it was covered in “Bakelite” (which is actually nothing like Bakelite). He can’t get in until Unit-01 moves on its own to break the Bakelite.
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Aug 2, 2019 19:42
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Ogmius815 posted:Wait I always thought he couldn’t get into Unit-01 because it was covered in “Bakelite” (which is actually nothing like Bakelite). He can’t get in until Unit-01 moves on its own to break the Bakelite. Yeah, it’s the other way around from that post. Misato shoves Shinji in the elevator, he can’t get in the loving robot because it’s covered in Bakelite, Asuka dies, the loving robot breaks the Bakelite and Shinji gets in.
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Aug 2, 2019 19:49
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It evokes what happened in the first episode.
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Aug 2, 2019 20:15
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Boy, I love the multi-minute derail into talking about the themes of Utena during this Evangelion podcast... jfc
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Aug 2, 2019 20:29
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Vinylshadow posted:Boy, I love the multi-minute derail into talking about the themes of Utena during this Evangelion podcast... Finally something that makes me want to listen to this podcast everyone keeps taking about
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Aug 2, 2019 20:32
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Ogmius815 posted:Wait I always thought he couldn’t get into Unit-01 because it was covered in “Bakelite” (which is actually nothing like Bakelite). He can’t get in until Unit-01 moves on its own to break the Bakelite. That’s true but imo a more traditional protagonist would have tried to get to the robot anyway especially since the Bakelite is pretty hardened at that point and iirc pretty traversable. I just found it interesting on first viewing, and it’s stuck with me. There are ways for a relatively fit person to actually go to the Eva despite the Bakelite, so I always found it striking that Shinji doesn’t even do that.
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Aug 2, 2019 20:32
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Vinylshadow posted:Boy, I love the multi-minute derail into talking about the themes of Utena during this Evangelion podcast...
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Aug 2, 2019 20:55
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Vinylshadow posted:Boy, I love the multi-minute derail into talking about the themes of Utena during this Evangelion podcast... Same but sincerely
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Aug 2, 2019 20:56
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Vinylshadow posted:Boy, I love the multi-minute derail into talking about the themes of Utena during this Evangelion podcast... that's the derail you had a problem with? not the one about the experience of watching the episode of Frasier where Diane from Cheers shows up?
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Aug 2, 2019 21:33
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah it's not like hands are used all the time in the show in order to represent stuff. no i was actually being unironic there, that was the joke Invalid Validation posted:I see where they are coming from though. It’s a pretty enjoyable show and then Anno decides to go all philosophy 101 without really saying anything. Saying a lot while also saying nothing at all is both anno's strength and weakness
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Aug 2, 2019 23:01
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ElNarez posted:that's the derail you had a problem with? not the one about the experience of watching the episode of Frasier where Diane from Cheers shows up? Hey any derail about Cheers is a good derail.
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Aug 3, 2019 00:53
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Lol, I like how this thread nitpicks turns of a phrase or even just straight up plainly stated observations in some weird attempt to undermine criticisms of their Favorite Thing. The bit about Misato was in the context of her actions at the end of the show and was put forward as a joke, not an actual assertion of how Misato was presented as a character. The bit about Shinji jerking off was in the context of how the show presents sexuality. That NGE is dogshit at presenting sexuality isn't a particularly hot take. I can feel for y'all arriving at more charitable conclusions than they did, but the general flip from "Wow waypoint is so insightful, they're loving it" to "omg they're missing the point, cancel cancel cancel" when they're levying very reasonable criticisms is so transparent.
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Aug 3, 2019 01:03
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Counter point. Way point is filled with a bunch of pseudo intellectual frauds like most Internet talker/writer sites.
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Aug 3, 2019 01:06
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I think NGE does a good job of presenting Shinji's sexuality and getting an anti-masturbation take out of it seems like a really stupid and shallow reading.
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Aug 3, 2019 01:20
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Finished listening to the Waypoint podcast. Trying to watch 25 and 26, and then watch EoE right afterwards seems like a really terrible idea. I thought at one time the fandom had landed on the original 25 and 26 being essentially production failures that got thrown together to meet the air dates and should be ignored. Maybe people no longer read the defensive interview (or interviews? or was it a Q&A?) Anno gave about 25 and 26 being his intended vision as total bullshit in an attempt to avoid admitting failure? I also kept expecting Austin or maybe Cado to eventually get into who the actresses were, and how that may have impacted what a turbo-grognard like Anno would have written for them, but they never did. I SUPER expected that to happen during discussion around ep 24 and Kaworu-as-Ikuahara, but I don't even remember a passing reference to the Misato-Usagi or Shinji-Haruka links. Unless I missed an attempt at a joke, they also whiffed badly on the fact that the 5 women that were thanked during the EoE intermission screen were the actresses. They aren't wrong when they say that a lot of the ideas from Anno's writing have either aged poorly or were never acceptable to start with. However, I also got the sense that they had decided on their conclusions during the podcast before last and were just parsing the endings for supporting material. I don't think 25 and 26 did anything counter any of that momentum, which left me disappointed with the quality of their discussion about EoE. I think Rob Zacny is also badly disadvantaged by existing in a reality where people have already read and listened to Bret Easton Ellis, for however different their politics might be.
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Aug 3, 2019 01:24
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Appoda posted:Lol, I like how this thread nitpicks turns of a phrase or even just straight up plainly stated observations in some weird attempt to undermine criticisms of their Favorite Thing. Okay Rob.
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Aug 3, 2019 02:15
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ChazTurbo posted:Counter point. Way point is filled with a bunch of pseudo intellectual frauds like most Internet talker/writer sites. so is this thread, tbf i am not excluded from this sadly
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Aug 3, 2019 02:47
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Oh so like Anno himself.
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Aug 3, 2019 03:11
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Invalid Validation posted:Oh so like Anno himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tmkm7KB8KU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Eq5y-Dyg5k
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Aug 3, 2019 08:32
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Wark Say posted:I dunno, Blue Blazes paints a very fun picture of Anno. ...I want to see more of this show
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Aug 3, 2019 10:01
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It's only around 10 or 11 eps and fansubbed by [Over-Time].
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Aug 3, 2019 13:18
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It's very good and the various Gainax staff have commented that its very accurate.
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Aug 3, 2019 15:16
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It's a fun show, with tons of references even in the op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qntj0rUUQI8
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Aug 3, 2019 16:32
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OK, so... Holy loving poo poo. I just found the original draft of Episode 24, as written by Akio Satsukawa. Now, Anno did not write this, and he did reject the script *as it was*, but he still liked it a great deal and the overall thrust of the narrative remains fundamentally the same. However, there are massive differences between this script and the final product. I cannot BELIEVE that I have never read this! It is full of absolutely remarkable things. Take this scene where Kaworu and Shinji first encounter one another, as written in the first script. It is preceded by a VERY interesting conversation between Shinji and Ritsuko. quote:RITSUKO: Thanks. (She lights the cigarette.) Shinji, you're always looking out for other people, aren't you? I bet you don't even get a break at home, do you? https://wiki.evageeks.org/Resources:Episode_24_Draft_1_(Translation) OK... So I find that all a bit mind-blowing. This is NOT a fanfic, this is the original text [albeit it translated but the original japanese is right there for reference] by someone who wrote 5 earlier episodes of the show! I mean, before we even get to the end, there is a tremendous amount to unpack just with the dialogue between Shinji and Ritsuko - tons of foreshadowing for both of them, as well as insight into actions they take both before this episode and in EoE... I mean, there are also things from this script that got moved around - like Kaworu playing the piano, or his connection/knowledge of classical music and opera, heh. Here it's Die Tote Stadt and Vivaldi on the soundtrack, guess they figured Ode to Joy was a bit more accessible. Winter would have been OK but I'm kinda glad they went for Beethoven. And there are other REALLY iconic Eva images described in this script - like the single shot of Unit 01's hand dripping blood as cold freeze begins. Wow. And then just the descriptions of how Shinji sees Kaworu at the end there leaves NO room for interpretation, nor does the rest of the script, It is *remarkable* and I'm still a bit blown away. To me, it feels much more like the definitive story of these two than what was portrayed in the manga... What is almost *intensely* shocking to me is that Ritsuko and Misato actually discuss the fact that Shinji is in love with another boy. quote:INT. NERV HQ - CONTROL ROOM Consider me FLOORED. My sincere apologies if this has already been posted and discussed! I've just never seen this draft before, and I'm finding it incredibly insightful. kaworu fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Aug 4, 2019 |
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Aug 4, 2019 19:19
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WOW that's super interesting, I'll have to read through that later. I'm floored that they were going to directly address shinji having fallen for kaworu, that kind of thing hardly ever goes beyond subtext
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Aug 4, 2019 19:51
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Admittedly, this thread has gone long enough and I haven't seen it posted recently, so yeah: Allowed. Also, Shinji basically having a "kyun-kyun panel" (maybe they're called something else? basically that moment where a person falls in love with the other person) be that explicit is awesome.
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Aug 4, 2019 20:28
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Panning the Stream's End of Evangelion podcast is up and, surprisingly, it turns out that talking through your thoughts about Evangelion after the movie (as opposed to immediately after 26 while a little drunk) results in a much more thorough, cohesive, nuanced, and not kneejerk overall assessment. I also finished The Recappables and while it is not perfect, I think of the myriad of podcasts that came out of the woodwork to talk about Eva I think it might be my favorite. It features two people who are both enthusiastic about the material and willing to both engage with it on its own terms and much more thoroughly walk through its themes as opposed to just surface level, bad faith reads and takes. Really the only downside is that both Justin and Micah are not new to the show (Justin saw it in like 2002, Micah saw it a few years ago) and a lot of them walking through the show winds up feeling more like, well, a recap. But it was by far the most consistently enjoyable of one of these.
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Aug 4, 2019 20:36
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I've just watched NGE and End of Eva for the first time, watching along with Waypoint and a little bit Panning the Stream. I'm conflicted because there was a lot to enjoy here, but I'm on board with the Waypoint POV: about 20 episodes ranging from decent to excellent, and then just (often beautiful, mostly frustrating) bullshit. Misato and Asuka, who both start off as great characters, are just grossly mishandled by the end for no good reason (they try to give Asuka a chance at redeeming glory in EoE but that's basically ripped away). Rei is less a character than a walking stand-in for an Oedipus Complex. NGE's characterization uses Freud the same way NGE's visuals use religious imagery, invoking "deep" concepts but only at a very superficial level (the biggest difference being that the visuals don't make you want to groan). And if we look at the real crux of the show — Shinji and his grapple with depression — it is just so unbelievably frustrating where it leads, because I do agree when Zacny says that it's as if the show is saying to not bother betting on the efficacy of those with serious depression. Failure after failure, to the point of literally ending humanity — and after the breakthrough he has in instrumentality, to just undo it with the strangling... I almost prefer the ridiculous "congratulations" ending of Ep 26. I remember thoroughly enjoying NGE through 01's awakening, and just staring at the screen slack-jawed. But if I knew where the series was headed — basically, just plowing through ridiculous plot and lore and into a very amateurish depiction of psychoanalysis, I would have kept my expectations way way down. I can see how this might have introduced new concepts (for anime, at least) 25 years ago, and it's definitely stylistically arresting. But for a series that is often held up as an all-time great, I'm struggling to see how it could earn so much credit. Sucks because I really loved the highs, but ultimately I feel that I overestimated how smart the show really was.
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Aug 4, 2019 23:10
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Rob's big speech in EoE was frustrating for me not because I disagreed with his analysis, but that I disagreed with his conclusion. I'd just about personally repeat his breakdown word-for-word about how lovely it is that Shinji, in the throes of the worst of his depression has ever gotten, is thrown out there to save everything and winds up at least seemingly doing anything but, but then end it with "...and that's why Evangelion works for me." poo poo is hard. There are no easy answers in life. We will wind up hurting people in our pursuit of contentment. Just because he is able to recover at the last moment to stop Instrumentality does not mean that his issues have been *finger snapped* resolved and would ultimately be hollow to me if the story up to that point had ended on a purely optimistic note. And ultimately Shinji should not have been put into that situation in the first place , which is broadly speaking a point that I feel especially Waypoint lost the plot on. Of the myriad of themes that Evangelion walks through, one of the biggest meta ones is a breakdown of the relationship between the older generation(s) and the current, and how the adults to a man/woman (including Misato!) utterly fail the Evangelion pilots, and place an onus on them that was not their problem and ultimately extremely toxic and destructive. At nearly every turn when the responsibility of support for all of the crap that Shinji and Asuka have to go through comes on their shoulders, they gently caress it up due to their own dysfunction.
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Aug 4, 2019 23:39
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I never quite realized it, but that's a very prescient reading of the show - you could even add the environmentalist angle somewhat, which is also present. There is a very big burden that The Silent Generation and the Baby Boomers are leaving us with - a dying planet, literally, which is entirely our responsibility to save. And (according to the show's perspective I'd say) rather than providing us with the love and attention required of parents, they've instead indulged their own fantasies and selfish desires - leaving us broken adults with hosed up childhoods, yet with noble ideals that tell us we must desperately live up to the expectations of our progenitors and always do what we're told, even if it goes against every fiber of our being and is literally destructive to the world to the extent of being the sole engine of the apocalypse, more or less. That is something I do like about Eva - Shinji's journey is wonderfully metaphoric, whatever angle you want to view it from.
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Aug 5, 2019 00:20
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It is certainly no coincidence that Evangelion was made during the Lost Decade.
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Aug 5, 2019 00:36
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rob's read just comes down to "why can't this depressed person get OVER it so I can be satisfied" and boy that sucks.
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Aug 5, 2019 00:42
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Sometimes I like to think Eva is just an extended case of Anno psychomachia and the giant robots are anxiety and EoE is just Anno going 'well guess I'm hosed up but i'll live with it '
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Aug 5, 2019 01:49
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Nate RFB posted:Rob's big speech in EoE was frustrating for me not because I disagreed with his analysis, but that I disagreed with his conclusion. I'd just about personally repeat his breakdown word-for-word about how lovely it is that Shinji, in the throes of the worst of his depression has ever gotten, is thrown out there to save everything and winds up at least seemingly doing anything but, but then end it with "...and that's why Evangelion works for me." I like the point about generational divide, and obviously accept that life is hard. There are just a ton of storytelling missteps IMO that makes some characters suddenly start behaving strangely to fit these themes in a way that spoils meaningful insights about people and their inner struggles. Like, Misato also inherited the consequences of the Second Impact. And she starts off as a well-realized character, intelligent and strong-willed with plenty of flaws and insecurities...but somewhere along the line, the show draws a connection between Kaji and her father. And she starts feeling guilty about having sex. And now she can't seem to support Shinji without offering sex. And her last words to Shinji were about sex. And she's ashamed during instrumentality about her having sex. When you say she lets Shinji and the pilots down, that's fair. But the shows goes to lengths to say that her core failure was her relationship to sex, which for me kind of comes out of nowhere and feels like the writers decided, "OK, show's wrapping up, let's make sure to hammer home that SEX AND REPRESSION SHAPE HUMAN LIFE." Her Instrumentality was so much more about this than about her dual-role as a caregiver/military lead, which 1000% would have supported your point about the generational divide. I don't even necessarily think Freudian concepts are bad to bring in, but the show tripped over itself to shove it into the scripts and just made the experience so much more weak. On your other point, I don't need an optimistic ending, but ideally something that is consistent with the rest of the show. Throughout the series we have seen Shinji become decisive about what he wants, backsliding back into self-doubt, and over and over again. The show's best Shinji moments have been those that saw him recognize and enact his responsibility and power to support those around him; there are plenty of these moments, some that result in magnificent failure. But in EoE, he's inert for almost the entirety of the film (except for his need to jack off to boobs), up until he decides to end Instrumentality. Maybe the impact of Kowaru's death just didn't land with me as much as was intended, but it just didn't feel true to the character. Imagine if at some point during Asuka's fight with the other Evas, he actually tries to help — and just utterly fails, allowing the movie to proceed almost exactly like it does. On the very last scene, the ultimate lesson of Instrumentality seems to be to express SOME desire for a broader world. His very next desire to strangle Asuka is just bizarre and wants to invite some kind of statement like "People are fundamentally beasts!" but that just seems so wrong to project onto Shinji, who's the only fully formed character by the end of the show. I'm still thinking about the show, which I think speaks to its strengths. It's just that my first reaction is disappointment with where it went (plot-wise and theme-wise) in its final handful of hours.
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Aug 5, 2019 01:55
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Jay-V posted:And if we look at the real crux of the show — Shinji and his grapple with depression — it is just so unbelievably frustrating where it leads, because I do agree when Zacny says that it's as if the show is saying to not bother betting on the efficacy of those with serious depression.
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Aug 5, 2019 01:56
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Misato doesn't start feeling guilty about sex, she's felt that way probably her whole life, or at least started sometime near the end of her relationship with Kaji.
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Aug 5, 2019 02:10
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