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Irony Be My Shield posted:Right. I guess it just seemed intuitively obvious to me that Tony was in the same boat as Nat having paid a sacrifice to use the stones. You can reverse the effect of the stones but you can't undo the cost associated with using or obtaining them. Yeah I can buy this but it seems a logic leap for the characters to make without even trying. You'd think Thor or Captain Marvel would be willing to sacrifice an arm for the possibility of bringing back Stark and others. Also it gets into how ill-defined the stones' power is. For example Thanos -- who knows a ton about the stones and was correct about their ability to erase half of all life with a snap of his fingers -- believes he can also unmake all of reality "atom by atom" and remake it in his own image. Let's say he remade the whole team exactly as they are with their current memories just so he can torture them by proving he was right: does Banner's arm still stay hosed up? Are the stones smart enough to know that? That's obviously just a quickly made rhetorical example, tho, I'm sure it's not 100% sound. But I'm equally sure you could come up with all sorts of scenarios where the stones unlimited powers run into weird logic holes.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:29
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The question marks surrounding how the stones work and the extent of their powers is exactly why they can't save Tony or Nat, because anything they do involving the stones would be too risky. They've come through the other side of the Thanos situation in a 1-in-4 million shot, and anything that might erase what they've done is just too reckless. You're risking billions of lives for what basically amounts to personal reasons.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:42
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I don't know why people think BW would be cool getting kidnapped, even if it is by future versions of her friends.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:54
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Away all Goats posted:I don't know why people think BW would be cool getting kidnapped, even if it is by future versions of her friends. The thing is they have to return the soul stone to the original universe before it left anyway. Just, pick Nat the moment before she sacrificed herself, there is literally no downside to this.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:19
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Guy A. Person posted:Yeah I can buy this but it seems a logic leap for the characters to make without even trying. You'd think Thor or Captain Marvel would be willing to sacrifice an arm for the possibility of bringing back Stark and others. I hate to make two "in the comics...." posts in a row, but the mind and soul gems are meant to expand your consciousness, letting you know how to deal with poo poo like that. They don't really seem to do anything when on the gauntlet in the movie, though. It's been a bit since I watched Infinity War, but we don't see Thanos mind control anyone or anything, right?
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Aug 14, 2019 20:06
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Lurdiak posted:I hate to make two "in the comics...." posts in a row, but the mind and soul gems are meant to expand your consciousness, letting you know how to deal with poo poo like that. Ah, the salvia stone
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Aug 14, 2019 20:15
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Lurdiak posted:I hate to make two "in the comics...." posts in a row, but the mind and soul gems are meant to expand your consciousness, letting you know how to deal with poo poo like that. They don't really seem to do anything when on the gauntlet in the movie, though. It's been a bit since I watched Infinity War, but we don't see Thanos mind control anyone or anything, right? No, though, in fairness, he doesn't have either of the mind or soul stones for very long. He gets the soul stone on Vormir, teleports to Earth, rips the mind stone out of Vision's forehead, then does the snap in the span of 5-10 minutes.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:24
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Sir Kodiak posted:No, though, in fairness, he doesn't have either of the mind or soul stones for very long. He gets the soul stone on Vormir, teleports to Earth, rips the mind stone out of Vision's forehead, then does the snap in the span of 5-10 minutes. Oh yeah. I guess that's fair.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:29
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He has the soul stone for the duration of the fight on Titan, he gets it before he heads there for the time stone
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Aug 14, 2019 20:33
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Guy A. Person posted:He has the soul stone for the duration of the fight on Titan, he gets it before he heads there for the time stone Oh, right. Because Starlord freaks out about Gamora being dead. My bad. Then, yeah, a bit weirder that it never actually does anything.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:41
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Thanos seemed to have mellowed out a bit on Titan, compared to how gleefully he wrecked the Asgardians' poo poo at the beginning of the movie. Might be because of the enlightenment he got from the Soul Stone, or the knowledge that the worst was behind him now.
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Aug 14, 2019 21:03
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Getting closer to your goal while gaining power and the ability to further your goals tends to take the edge off.
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Aug 14, 2019 23:24
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Guy A. Person posted:He has the soul stone for the duration of the fight on Titan, he gets it before he heads there for the time stone I'm pretty sure the only time he actively uses the soul stone is to suss out the real Dr. Strange amongst the duplicates he creates during the Titan fight, right?
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Aug 15, 2019 00:51
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One theory I sort of buy about Thanos' power level is that he was kind of holding back in Infinity War because after he got the Space stone he knew he was going to win, and he was going to let the snap figure out who lived and died. Younger Thanos just wants to gently caress people up. The movie only really works if you accept that they put character and emotion above plot and logic. Time Travel for instance is just a way to have those parent/child beats. You also have to accept that this was absolutely the right thing to do.
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Aug 15, 2019 21:02
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CityMidnightJunky posted:You also have to accept that this was absolutely the right thing to do. I would if the character and emotional stuff was particularly well done instead of just kind of all right.
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Aug 15, 2019 21:23
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Tart Kitty posted:I'm pretty sure the only time he actively uses the soul stone is to suss out the real Dr. Strange amongst the duplicates he creates during the Titan fight, right? Pretty sure that was the Reality stone
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Aug 15, 2019 22:09
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I keep coming back to the 5-year gap for everyone who was brought back and how messed up that'll make things for both them and the people who lived through those 5 years. At first, I thought Tony was REAL selfish for making them not take those 5 years away. But really, if they undid those 5 years, they'd be undoing all kinds of real things that happened (e.g., not just Tony's kid, but 5 years of babies born who would be un-born), and I that would also be super messed up. It would've been neat if they explored that more - rather than 8 people deciding which choice to make for the universe, based on 1 person's demands. (Or am I forgetting more deliberation they did around that?) Maybe they'll do like Homecoming and in 5 years have a villain whose origin story was the damage done by an earlier movie - i.e., someone who would've been better off if they'd undone the 5 years (e.g., like someone earlier in the thread suggested, a guy whose wife died in those 5 years while he was in non-existence limbo).
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Aug 16, 2019 19:33
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And then, hear me out, Ant Man can make fun of their costume.
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Aug 16, 2019 19:56
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cappaj posted:I keep coming back to the 5-year gap for everyone who was brought back and how messed up that'll make things for both them and the people who lived through those 5 years. At first, I thought Tony was REAL selfish for making them not take those 5 years away. But really, if they undid those 5 years, they'd be undoing all kinds of real things that happened (e.g., not just Tony's kid, but 5 years of babies born who would be un-born), and I that would also be super messed up. It would've been neat if they explored that more - rather than 8 people deciding which choice to make for the universe, based on 1 person's demands. (Or am I forgetting more deliberation they did around that?) i mean children wouldn't be unborn, nobody's sucking them back into their mothers, they'd be not born because that poo poo didn't happen.
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Aug 17, 2019 10:22
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Lurdiak posted:In the comics they usually undo everything bad the gauntlet did and then say "But any more than that would be immoral and lead us down a path like Thanos." but since movie Thanos didn't actually want to be a god because they wrote him as a weird guy who believes debunked racist myths about overpopulation, they didn't have that easy out.
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Aug 17, 2019 13:30
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Sir Kodiak posted:I was absolutely baffled by that scene. Usually the promise of the MCU is that whatever highs they may be missing, they've sanded off the truly embarrassing poo poo to produce this smooth, palatable experience. But then Black Widow's death scene is a seemingly-endless sequence of two people awkwardly knocking each other over. It's like on paper they thought "We can't have one hero kill another and be quick about it. It's got to go on for long enough that they look tortured and it avoids looking like we're saying that one of the heroes is more powerful than the other" and then they drew it out way longer than made any sense. galenanorth fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Aug 17, 2019 |
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Aug 17, 2019 14:42
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RatHat posted:Pretty sure that was the Reality stone  Soul and Power
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Aug 17, 2019 14:56
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galenanorth posted:It's like on paper they thought "We can't have one hero kill another and be quick about it. It's got to go on for long enough that they look tortured and it avoids looking like we're saying that one of the heroes is more powerful than the other" and then they drew it out way longer than made any sense. Its the kind of mealy mouther marketing driven story telling thats also plagueing fast and furious. (Disregard that F&F is more diva actor driven) Cant have BW, the hand to hand specialist just knock hawkeye on his rear end because that diminishes hawkeyes BRAND Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Aug 17, 2019 |
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Aug 17, 2019 17:30
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Its the kind of mealy mouther marketing driven story telling thats also plagueing fast and furious. (Disregard that F&F is more diva actor driven) She knocks him down and hits him with her stun thing which I always assumed was her equalizer to help her fight the kind of threats the Avengers face, but Hawkeye's just a regular dude and he just plucks it off his chest lol
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Aug 17, 2019 17:37
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Timeless Appeal posted:I feel like Endgame kind of cements that Thanos just wants to be a God and his balance schtick was all bullshit. That is kinda where he ends up but the road to it doesn't feel too organic. I mean the Thanos who was fine with dying at the Avengers' hands doesn't at all feel like the same dude from the end of the film.
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Aug 17, 2019 23:10
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Endgame really doesn't hold up on home viewing for me. It's easier now to see how lovely and boring the action is; about on par with the rest of the MCU, maybe worse. It really does rely way more on gimmicks than interesting filmmaking when it comes to framing all the action scenes, but at least there's no set piece that's a 100% quip fest like the Civil War airport fight. I guess the film held its charm over me in the theater because the VFX were assaulting my face on a big rear end screen. Everything up until the time heist stuff was fine, but once they start gathering the stones I feel like the film loses its steam trying to bank everything on nostalgia, and then the third act is just blockbuster vomit. I likely won't go out of my way to watch this again on my own time. It was way too much of a chore to get through.
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Aug 17, 2019 23:49
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I thought the final fight was fine until the armies showed up.
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Aug 17, 2019 23:50
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The logistical horror of several billion people just zapping back into existence is hard to comprehend. Like, you’d have people literally raining from the sky because they were snapped while aboard a plane. Massive wrecks because people are blipping back in the middle of the street. What if someone was occupying the space another person was in when they vanished? Horrible telefrag? This doesn’t get into things like housing and jobs for these people, among other resources suddenly needed for billions. Or the emotional toll of coming back and, I dunno, your spouse is dead because they were the sole survivor of the snap in your family, and killed themselves out of grief. But hey, Tony’s happy I guess.
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Aug 18, 2019 01:52
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Pants Donkey posted:The logistical horror of several billion people just zapping back into existence is hard to comprehend. Like, you’d have people literally raining from the sky because they were snapped while aboard a plane. Massive wrecks because people are blipping back in the middle of the street. What if someone was occupying the space another person was in when they vanished? Horrible telefrag? This doesn’t get into things like housing and jobs for these people, among other resources suddenly needed for billions. Or the emotional toll of coming back and, I dunno, your spouse is dead because they were the sole survivor of the snap in your family, and killed themselves out of grief. According to the Russo's, Hulk accounted for these issues so he included in his desire for people to only be returned in places where people were safe.
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Aug 18, 2019 02:17
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Yeah the stones ain't some evil genie trying to get you on a technicality.
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Aug 18, 2019 03:14
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Lurdiak posted:Yeah the stones ain't some evil genie trying to get you on a technicality. Yeah this is something that did seem pretty clear throughout the MCU, that when someone's wielding the stones it's an extension of the person's will. The user doesn't need to utter a bunch of if/then contingencies. Like you don't want a bunch of people to be killed when things are unsnapped, therefore people will not be brought back in such a way that they would immediately die or be in danger when you unsnap them.
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Aug 18, 2019 03:56
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And it's not like there wouldn't be plenty of issues with Earth's population halving, stabilizing at the new level over the course of five years, then suddenly doubling. You don't need people plummeting out of the sky because their airplane isn't there anymore for there to be massive, obvious problems. Of course, Tony probably got the world on free, clean energy during the downtime, which would help.
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Aug 18, 2019 05:13
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Endgame held up for me on rewatch and I still like it more than Infinity War almost solely based on having better Cap content. The only part of Endgame that really pulls me out of things a bit did just as much when I saw it in theatres - I really don't like how Thanos bombing Avengers HQ instantly turns the entire region into a beige CG wasteland. It's visually worse than the Civil War grey CG airport because that at least was a still a place, in Endgame it's a generic nothing. Thanos may as well have hit everyone with a teleport to Titan beam because it's completely unrecognizable as the Avengers base or anywhere on Earth
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Aug 18, 2019 08:49
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Covok posted:According to the Russo's, Hulk accounted for these issues so he included in his desire for people to only be returned in places where people were safe. Think about this for like three seconds, though. Nowhere is ‘safe’. If you rematerialize in a place with an atmosphere? Fatal embolisms, unless the glove-puter accounts for that and creates a person-sized vacuum. Trees are replanted, meaning that the glove-puter creates a cavity in the soil to accommodate the roots - so where does the excess soil go? If it’s instantaneously displaced in a fraction of a second, then all the arable land on Earth has just exploded. Maybe the glove-puter compensates for that too, the same way it could account for the rotation of the Earth and its motion through space over the course of five years. The glove is smart enough that - in the entire universe - there are no glitches. No two objects overlap. Nobody rematerializes in a locked room. Nobody materializes in front of a bullet train. Nobody rematerializes without access to food or water, etc. Even the smallest microbe is accounted for. So we get to the point: the glove-puter instantly and perfectly reorganizes all the matter in the entire universe to make people ‘safe’. It can do this, and it does do this. Therefore everything boils down to the definition of ‘safety’ - and the Avengers’ definition is clearly one that doesn’t include, for example, literally universal healthcare. Despite literally having the power of God, Banner ‘saves’ everyone up to a point - up to a certain line he’s unwilling to cross - and then those slum-dwelling children are on their own.
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Aug 18, 2019 17:29
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My favourite section is still probably the Time Heist. After all the grief and misery of act 1 (and act 1 absolutely should have been grief and misery) the Time Heist is just fun and light, without seeming like a completely different movie. It was nostalgic as gently caress, but it didn't rely on it. Each time period was there to further develop a character. Tony got closure on his dad, Thor saw his mom which gave him his direction back, Nebula was able to see how far she's come (by putting a bullet in her past self). The only complaint I have is the Vomir scene. I didn't see it as a repeat of Infinity War, In fact the Gamora scene was essential in proving that the stakes were real, and they weren't going to find a way out of that dilemma. I even liked the idea of both of them fighting each other to go over. I don't know, it was tense right up to them literally hanging off the edge which seemed a bit too much, and kind of took me out of it. My phone also auto corrects Vomir as Vomit which I find hilarious.
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Aug 18, 2019 17:47
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Think about this for like three seconds, though. Nowhere is ‘safe’. Yeah, that he effectively got infinite "wishes" wrapped into a single wish and restored everything to the status quo instead of getting political with it speaks to its confines within the realm of a work of fiction that has to appeal toward people of all political ideologies in order to be commercially successful and works its logic backward from there
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Aug 18, 2019 18:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Think about this for like three seconds, though. Nowhere is ‘safe’. I read two lines into this and turned my brain off. You're just being pedantic. It's a fantasy series with a magic wish-granting gauntlet. Sometimes it can be fun to get into the nitty gritty, but to assume that matters to the writer or universe is always suspect. Sure, Warren Ellis loves to do things like scientifically explain superman's ability to fly, which he did in the Planetary/Justice League crossover. But, if the Avengers don't care about going that far with the rules, then it just needs to be consistent enough to pass mustard. The story established that "what you wish for with the gauntlet happens, that you don't speak your wish but simply think your intentions, but, the bigger the wish, the more it will hurt you, possibly kill you." That's the rules established in the story. They didn't break from that. The closest thing to breaking the rules is going "Thanos and the Hulk can survive the strain" but that isn't too much of a rule break as both are established to be some of the most hearty beings in the universe.This isn't a monkey's paw. Edit: Why are you talking about univeral healthcare? What does that have to do with anything? I thought I was weird for injecting my politics into things. Like I agree with you on the idea of Universal Health Care, but that has no place in this discussion. Covok fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 18, 2019 |
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Aug 18, 2019 22:12
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Right, it's just a magic wish machine - so the question is: what do you wish for? Professor Hulk puts on the gauntlet, thinks really hard, snaps his fingers and BAM! a speedboat appears. Everyone's looking at him, like "what the hell" and Professor Hulk says "ever since I was a kid, I've always wanted my very own speedboat." Then he takes the gauntlet off, he gets in the speedboat, and he drives away.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:30
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Lt. Danger posted:Right, it's just a magic wish machine - so the question is: what do you wish for? I mean, you could do that. I think. It was never established if you could wish for something like that. But considering that the Gauntlet in the comics can literally compress space and turn everything into an Escher painting, I imagine making a speedboat is Child's Play.
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Aug 18, 2019 22:32
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I'm sure the Infinity Gauntlet could make a speedboat. But, like, if you watched Endgame and it ended with Hulk wishing for a speedboat and just driving away, and half of everyone just stayed dusted... would that be okay? Professor Hulk puts on the gauntlet, thinks really hard, then says "Y'know, Thanos was right, he just went too far. I'm not gonna wish everyone back, I'll just wish back the whites." Everyone gasps, and War Machine says "Dude, I'm right here", but it's too late, Hulk has the gauntlet and it turns out he's a total racist. Is that better or worse than the speedboat ending?
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Aug 18, 2019 22:46
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