Welcome goonlings to the Awful Book of the Month! In this thread, we choose one work of Resources: Project Gutenberg - http://www.gutenberg.org - A database of over 17000 books available online. If you can suggest books from here, that'd be the best. SparkNotes - http://www.sparknotes.com/ - A very helpful Cliffnotes-esque site, but much better, in my opinion. If you happen to come in late and need to catch-up, you can get great character/chapter/plot summaries here. For recommendations on future material, suggestions on how to improve the club, or just a general rant, feel free to PM me. Past Books of the Month [for BOTM before 2016, refer to archives] 2016: January: Three Men in a Boat (To say nothing of the Dog!) by Jerome K. Jerome February:The March Up Country (The Anabasis) of Xenophon March: The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco April: Plain Tales from the Hills by Rudyard Kipling May: Temple of the Golden Pavilion by Yukio Mishima June:The Vegetarian by Han Kang July:Lud-in-the-Mist by Hope Mirrlees August: Pale Fire by Vladimir Nabokov September:Siddhartha by Herman Hesse October:Right Ho, Jeeves by P.G. Wodehouse November:Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain December: It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis 2017: January: Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut February: The Plague by Albert Camus March: The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin April: The Conference of the Birds (مقامات الطیور) by Farid ud-Din Attar May: I, Claudius by Robert Graves June: Salt: A World History by Mark Kurlansky July: Ficcionies by Jorge Luis Borges August: My Life and Hard Times by James Thurber September: The Peregrine by J.A. Baker October: Blackwater Vol. I: The Flood by Michael McDowell November: Aquarium by David Vann December: Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight [Author Unknown] 2018 January: Njal's Saga [Author Unknown] February: The Sign of the Four by Arthur Conan Doyle March: Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders April: Twenty Days of Turin by Giorgio de Maria May: Lectures on Literature by Vladimir Nabokov June: The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test by Tom Wolfe July: Warlock by Oakley Hall August: All Creatures Great and Small by James Herriott September: The Magus by John Fowles October: I'll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara November: Arcadia by Tom Stoppard December: Christmas Stories by Charles Dickens 2019: January: Roadside Picnic by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky February: BEAR by Marian Engel March: V. by Thomas Pynchon April: The Doorbell Rang by Rex Stout May: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman June: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann July: The Art of Fielding by Chad Harbach Current: Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay Book available here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24518 About the book: quote:In reading the history of nations, we find that, like individuals, they have their whims and their peculiarities; their seasons of excitement and recklessness, when they care not what they do. We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first...Money, again, has often been a cause of the delusion of multitudes. Sober nations have all at once become desperate gamblers, and risked almost their existence upon the turn of a piece of paper... Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. Charles Mackay, L.L.D. quote:Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds is an early study of crowd psychology by Scottish journalist Charles Mackay, first published in 1841.[1] The book was published in three volumes: "National Delusions", "Peculiar Follies", and "Philosophical Delusions".[2] Mackay was an accomplished teller of stories, though he wrote in a journalistic and somewhat sensational style. quote:n his 1841 book Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, Charles MacKay wrote of the crowd psychology that drive numerous “National Delusions,” Peculiar Follies,” and “Psychological Delusions.” Among the various manias were the tulip bubble of the early 17th century, witch mania of the 16th and 17th centuries and alchemists who sought to turn base medals into gold. About the Author(s) quote:Charles Mackay was born in Perth, Scotland. His father, George Mackay, was a bombardier in the Royal Artillery, and his mother Amelia Cargill died shortly after his birth.[1] His birthdate was 26 March 1812, although he always gave it as 27 March 1814. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mackay_%28author%29 Themes It's all right there in the title. This is basically the first book to look at all these disparate historical trends and frame them in the way us moderns think of them today -- as mass manias. It's not hard to see why this book remains relevant today. Pacing Read as thou wilt is the whole of the law. Please post after you read! Please bookmark the thread to encourage discussion. Keep in mind this is written in 1841. It assumes a different kind of reader from what we have today, but the format isn't that unfamiliar overall -- in some ways think of it as the 1840's equivalent of a Buzzfeed article or deep Wikipedia dive. This may be one you want to skip around a bit in. Some sections, the economic bubble ones in particular, are easier reads, and the medieval history sections drag a bit more than the relatively modern parts. References and Further Reading There are a lot of different directions we could go in here, so I'll leave the thread to make suggestions. Final Note: Thanks, and I hope everyone enjoys the book!
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# ? Aug 2, 2019 01:12 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:01 |
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Read Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Mad a few times. Favorite sections were the 2 or 3 stock-bubble chapters (John Law's escalating financial policies in France/the South Sea bubble in England/Tulip craze bubble in Holland, mesmerizism chapter was funny-interesting (high perv-factor in the mesmerizism saloons), found the slang chapter ok just for the sheer amount of dead and dated slang terms, while the witch mania stuff really dragged.
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# ? Aug 2, 2019 06:38 |
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Not about crows, 0/10
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# ? Aug 2, 2019 11:43 |
NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Read Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Mad a few times. Yeah, I've been re-reading it to prepare once it became clear that it was winning the poll. So far, the clear standout chapters are the First Stock Bubble chapters because it's still a very modern problem and it's incredible to read about nations dealing with it for the first time and not realizing it's a problem, like the King deciding "hey, these paper securities are great, printing some worked out fine, let's keep printing more? What could go wrong?" "Ooooooh my bad" The witch mania chapters I find interesting just from a legal and sociological perspective, especially given the huge death toll. As an American we know about the Salem witch trials but it's weird to realize that the Salem witches were like the last rural hick vestige of a trend that had already played itself out a hundred or two hundred years before on the Continent. The part that drags for me is mostly the alchemists, because it's just a very long, very repetitive litany of individual scam artists and scam victims, not really "crowd" behavior at all.
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# ? Aug 2, 2019 14:59 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I've been re-reading it to prepare once it became clear that it was winning the poll. There was definite crowd behavior there. Only it was a crowd of scam artists, doing their own versions of the alchemy scam but relying on the legends and reprinted stories of earlier long dead/imprisoned alchemist scam artists. In the long run, the only people that made money and profited from the alchemy "philosophers stone/matter transmutation mania/myth" were the printers, paper makers, and book makers that made all those fliers, books, pamphlets hyping up the matter transmutation mania/myth Chivalry chapter had one or two amusing bits. The "stepmom horny for her stepson" duel and the Princeling who encouraged dueling until his favorite duel-murdererist got killed/then immediate ban on all duels forever......which, uh, may have been the same duel? Honestly, its been a while since I read EPDatMoC without powerskimming over/outright skipping the boring2me witch-mania + hair-length-mania chapters quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Aug 2, 2019 |
# ? Aug 2, 2019 22:47 |
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Having read it years ago (and enjoyed it), the memory of the book has reduced in my mind to the South Sea bubble and the weird slang. Particularly the word "qoz" (?) which came from nowhere, meant nothing, but was widespread and then disappeared. It reminds me of the current fervour for "wife guy", which has several mainstream media articles explaining.
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# ? Aug 5, 2019 13:04 |
This footnote intrigued me:quote:The curious reader may find an anecdote of the eagerness of the French ladies to retain Law in their company, which will make him blush or smile according as he happens to be very modest or the reverse. It is related in the Letters of Madame Charlotte Elizabeth de Bavière, Duchess of Orleans, vol. ii. p. 274. So of course I looked it up; the edition I found doesn't match for page numbers but I believe this is the incident: quote:2ist November, 1719, Paris.
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# ? Aug 6, 2019 16:02 |
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If you're curious to know more about John Law, btw, I can recommend Janet Gleeson's Millionaire, which is a nice fast-paced biography of Law with a focus on the Mississippi Bubble.
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# ? Aug 6, 2019 18:12 |
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I was curious so I'm giving it a go. Are we reading just the first volume or the complete work? I'm at the South Sea Bubble, an incident I remember from a brief part of a history course, its an interesting work but the finances of this and the Mississippi bubble keep going over my head.
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# ? Aug 6, 2019 20:19 |
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Baka-nin posted:I was curious so I'm giving it a go. Are we reading just the first volume or the complete work? This is how it went in real life too, and why both the South Sea Bubbke + Mississippi colony were ultimately 95% hype/5% hard content.
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# ? Aug 7, 2019 00:55 |
Baka-nin posted:I was curious so I'm giving it a go. Are we reading just the first volume or the complete work? Honestly, I'd suggest skipping around in both volumes depending on what sounds interesting. The neat thing about the South Sea and Mississippi Bubbles are that everyone involved is discovering how it works too in real time as we read about it. Short, oversimplified version: Before this, money was based on physical things -- gold or barter. That means that money was scarce and hence very valuable. Like, coins themselves were relatively rare. If you wanted to buy something you might have to barter for it just out of lack of currency. In the middle ages up through the renaissance, you started to see paper money, but it was notes of credit -- i.e., you'd deposit a thousand gold pieces with a banker in Rome and give you a receipt for it, you'd travel to London and give the receipt to a banker in London who'd give you your thousand gold back (minus a percentage), etc. Basically the first IOU's. What's happening in these two situations is very smart people working out for the very first time that you could take that basic concept and go BIG with it, making lots of promises, issuing lots of IOUs,. In effect, they're inventing the modern idea of the stock market. Problem: nobody had really processed yet that stock markets could crash. Concepts like inflation and deflation weren't worked out yet. The word "bubble" is literally not coined yet. So from a modern perspective it's like reading about people discovering the concept of fire and then all deciding "wow, that's really warm! That's great! Let's all shove our dicks into it! What could go wrong?" Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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# ? Aug 7, 2019 01:11 |
One big reason I put this into the poll was because of how neatly it syncs up with a lot of the major problems our society still faces today -- conspiracy theories, political idiocies, capitalism, etc. I went a few pages deep into google looking for articles that contained the phrase "madness of crowds" -- referencing this book. Here's some of what I found: quote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/robert-shiller-economists-donald-trump-9-11-brexit-immigration-a7539961.html quote:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-truth-an-outdated-concept/ quote:
https://www.lindau-nobel.org/blog-lucidity-in-the-post-factual-era-how-to-unsee-the-emperors-new-clothes/ quote:Making news through trolling https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/mike-cernovich
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# ? Aug 7, 2019 19:27 |
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I'm into volume 2 now and, um He says "I'm not here to give a detailed account of the crusades; my focus is on the popular madness in Europe which gave rise to them" and then he spends about 150 pages giving a detailed account of the first three crusades?
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# ? Aug 12, 2019 19:21 |
ToxicFrog posted:I'm into volume 2 now and, um I think that's a difference in what we consider "history" now vs what was considered history then. Back then social history wasn't a priority to anything like the degree it is now; detailed history would mean like detailed troop movements in particular battles etc. Also he's not exactly the most precise writer Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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# ? Aug 12, 2019 19:57 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think that's a difference in what we consider "history" now vs what was considered history then. Back then social history wasn't a priority to anything like the degree it is now; detailed history would mean like detailed troop movements in particular battles etc. Right, but he outright says: quote:It would be needless in this sketch, which does not profess to be so much a history of the Crusades, as of the madness of Europe, from which they sprang, to detail the various acts of bribery and intimidation, cajolery and hostility, by which Alexius contrived to make each of the leaders in succession, as they arrived, take the oath of allegiance to him as their suzerain. that he is going to focus on "the madness of Europe" that engendered the Crusades, and not on the Crusades itself; but for every page discussing the factors in Europe that kicked off this or that Crusade -- the "popular delusions" that this book purportedly discusses -- there's 20 detailing the military actions of the Crusade itself which have little if anything to do with the thesis of the book.
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# ? Aug 12, 2019 20:21 |
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I just popped in here to say, during my internship at a futures trader about a year ago the chapters on the Mississippi scheme, the South Seas Bubble, and Tulipmania where required reading for the interns on top of studying for the series 3 license. While reading it I noticed a running theme of "A guy has a good idea to make a bunch of money, and then everyone starts abusing the hell out of it. The government tries to co-opt it, and bad poo poo happens until a recession finally forces the government to start regulating it and tossing people in jail" that jive with anyone else?
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# ? Aug 13, 2019 16:05 |
Defenestrategy posted:I just popped in here to say, during my internship at a futures trader about a year ago the chapters on the Mississippi scheme, the South Seas Bubble, and Tulipmania where required reading for the interns on top of studying for the series 3 license. I think that's roughly fair. The mississippi and south sea schemes were government-involved from the start though -- the core idea was basically "let's have the government issue securities! Then they can't possibly fail!" I'd need to re-read the section on the tulip mania though that seemed more pure market shenanigans from what I recall.
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# ? Aug 13, 2019 20:30 |
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Yeah, the Stadtholders didn't get involved until the Tulip prices started to plummet. I finished Vol I, I take the threads point about the financial shenanigans sections, despite not being able to keep track of them they did seem very familiar, I can see a modern version of the book having a section on the Wall street crash and the Bubble economy. I read through the rest of the more quackish sections, I probably should of skipped around given that the ninth example of an alchemist was the same as the fourth but again these old quasi movements of philosophers, academics, and outright conmen falling under each others influence and dragging much of society with them is also something that hasn't really gone away.
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# ? Aug 14, 2019 04:43 |
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I'm reading the section on poisoning now, and he mentions that, as the poison mania gripped France and the prisons increasingly swelled with poisoners, the commission of other crimes decreased in proportion. And I wonder: how many of those people are poisoners who would have, before, chosen some less fashionable form of murder? And how many of them are innocent people accused by angry neighbors or political enemies of being poisoners, knowing that it's a charge everyone is very ready to believe? In fact, the poison mania seems to have a lot in common with the witch mania (although Mackay decries the latter as murderous superstition, and reports the former as the gospel truth). The poisons, when administered properly, mimic the effects of natural afflictions and diseases; they are scentless, tasteless, and generally undetectable, making it impossible to prove that someone wasn't poisoned; and confessions are extracted on the rack or via other tortures, in the course of which the alleged poisoner not only admits their own guilt, but names a rash of co-conspirators to be delivered to the dungeons. At least some of these convictions do have more basis in fact than the ones for witchcraft; poisoners condemned by their own words in letters to their accomplices, for example, or poison-sellers caught in sting operations. And it seems likely that at least a few of the mysterious potions and powders confiscated in investigations were indeed poisons, and not cosmetics, cleaning supplies, alchohol of dubious provenance, would-be love potions, etc. But I do wonder if it is truly anywhere near as many as Mackay believes.
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# ? Aug 16, 2019 20:12 |
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I once read a writers guide that did a lot of reality-checks for fantasy cliches: what armor is really like, you can't ride a horse flat out all day, etc. One of the corrections was about poisons. At least before modern times, poison was very unreliable and of dubious efficacy. Many recipes for poison were dubious, they tasted vile and it was hard to see how the victim could choke down enough to actually kill them. The poison Mackay describes sounds a lot like fantasy poison, which puts the mania in a different light.
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# ? Aug 17, 2019 08:22 |
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Yeah, that was one of the things that started me thinking along these lines -- the poison he describes is very implausible as a poison, but makes perfect sense as a story people tell each other about poison to justify persecuting "poisoners". It's presented very differently, but once you step back from Mackay's framing, the parallels to the witch panic are pretty glaring.
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# ? Aug 17, 2019 13:31 |
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Add in the fact that most of the food in Europe of the 16th to late 17th centuries was already vile tasting. Commonly used household spices for cooking of today were were rare and very-expensive during those time periods in Europe, while refrigeration + food sterilization weren't even pipe dreams back then....so meat + veggies were already rotting/nasty as hell by the time they reached kitchens of those times. Being able to slip vile-tasting poisons into already vile-tasting food of those time periods un-detectedly wasn't improbable, and I do suspect MacKay conflated "natural" cases of food-poisoning deaths with "criminal conspiracy" poisonings for that section of his book.
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# ? Aug 17, 2019 15:34 |
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Add in the fact that most of the food in Europe of the 16th to late 17th centuries was already vile tasting. Commonly used household spices for cooking of today were were rare and very-expensive during those time periods in Europe, while refrigeration + food sterilization weren't even pipe dreams back then....so meat + veggies were already rotting/nasty as hell by the time they reached kitchens of those times. I'd like some sources for the claim that most food was straight up rotting when people were eating it, that doesn't sound right. How would people avoid getting constant food poisoning if that was the case? there's a lot of spices that used to be really common in European cooking but aren't used so much today as well, so the spices we use today being expensive isn't necessarily a problem. people have been using salt and other methods to preserve meat and fish and so forth for ages too.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 05:25 |
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Yeah, I think that at some point in the 10,000 years between the dawn of agriculture and the Enlightenment people might have figured out how to eat food that was actually edible.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 06:41 |
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True, true, I over-simplified. Not not all vegetables + meats everyone ate back then were rotting, obviously, or even deemed vile-garbage at the time. I vastly oversimplified trying to offer up a counter-argument to the "poisoning? = total bullshit" claims. Most of the high-profile poisoning murders Mackay mentioned took place in cities or large estates during parties or special events where large quantities of food had to be stockpiled up or delivered, which allows for the food used at those events to not be the freshest stuff. Also didn't Mackay mention how arsenic-based poisons were used alot by the supposed poisoners, and how at least one or two of the poisoning victims mentioned were food gluttons, or took multiple doses before dying, or am I totally mis-remembering things from Extraordinary Popular Delusions? Salting and other methods of food preservation of those times left strong distinct tastes in the food preserved using those methods. Like how salt preservation changes the flavor of meats, or how olive oil really changes how food preserved in it can taste. Tomatoes and chilies for example, the omnipresent fruit-vegetables slash condiment bases of today, weren't introduced into Europe until the mid 16th century. Until tomatoes and chilies won out, fermented fish-based or fermented-cabbage based sauces/condiments were used to mask the saltiness/slightly aged/blandness taste of meat/preserved meats in Europe. All those strong tasting masking agents could disguise the taste of similarly strong(vile) tasting poisons too. Source for my claims: Mark Kurlansky's SALT: A World History, and world history i guess. BTW, Mark Kurlansky's SALT: A World History.....is definitely worth checking out. Lots of interesting recipes and weird factoids about food in it.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 09:52 |
NoNostalgia4Grover posted:
We did it as BOTM a year or two back! https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3822839 Very good book but has some historical inaccuracies.
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 13:00 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:We did it as BOTM a year or two back! Yeah, I saw that it was a BotM after I posted my recommendation. Volumes 2 + Volumes 3 of Extraordinary Popular Delusions are definitely weaker than Volume 1. Besides the various stock market-scam manias in Volume 1, the magnetisers /mesmerism chapter is the other popular delusion thats still going strong, via "the healing power of crystals".
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:37 |
Did some digging on the history of Aqua Tofana.quote:
https://www.academia.edu/29668795/Aqua_Tofana
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# ? Aug 18, 2019 14:58 |
We need nominations for next month.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 00:54 |
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Nominating Excellent Cadavers because almost everyone can get into true crime books, and Excellent Cadavers gets insane towards the end. Also suggesting Built: the hidden story behind structures by Roma Agrawal and how to mellify a corpse by vicki leon, which are both moderately deep dives into their respective subject matters non-fiction books.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 02:27 |
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:how to mellify a corpse by vicki leon, which are both moderately deep dives into their respective subject matters non-fiction books. Welp buying this regardless.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 14:04 |
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pseudanonymous posted:Welp buying this regardless. Has Johnathon Strange and Mr. Norrell been done?
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 14:58 |
pseudanonymous posted:Has Johnathon Strange and Mr. Norrell been done? I generally don't pick books that are already very popular on the forum. My criteria are basically 1) accessibility -- either easy to read or easy to download a free copy of, ideally both 2) novelty -- something a significant fraction of the forum hasn't already read 3) discussability -- intellectual merit, controversiality, insight -- a book people will be able to talk about. I also try to mix up genre and format a bit but that's subjective. E.g., we've done a lot of nonfiction lately, so it might be time for a fiction pick. We've also done a lot of male authors so might be time for a female author. etc.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 15:42 |
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My main weaknesses of my 3 recommendations are: Excellent Cadavers - its a non-fiction true crime book about the Silician mafia, with bad endings for the good guys. Built - Despite happening 8 months before "Built" was published, theGreenfell tower incident is never mentioned in the book. mellify a corpse - I overstated the deepness of the subject matter dive: Tons of topics, maybe 1 -4 pages spent on each subject.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 17:48 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I also try to mix up genre and format a bit but that's subjective. E.g., we've done a lot of nonfiction lately, so it might be time for a fiction pick. We've also done a lot of male authors so might be time for a female author. etc.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 18:33 |
NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Built - Despite happening 8 months before "Built" was published, theGreenfell tower incident is never mentioned in the book. this is hardly a weakness; 8 months is no time in publishing. the book was doubtless already done and in the hands of the publisher by that point, and doing the subject justice would have entailed a significant delay - not least because the investigations themselves took months and years to unfold (at least one of them is still ongoing). writing in their absence and in the immediate aftermath, when so many false stories were circling in the press, would have been hugely irresponsible.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:30 |
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I generally don't pick books that are already very popular on the forum. picnic at hanging rock, joan lindsay. classic of australian lit, credited with essentially creating the country's film industry, spooky, short, should be in every library.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 19:35 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I generally don't pick books that are already very popular on the forum. Letters of Insurgents by Fredy Perlman, free copies are easy to find, including an audiobook. Its about revolution and freedom takes place both in Cold War Eastern Europe and the US during the protest movement. It covers and explores nearly every type of left wing group and some of the political right and has a really interesting way of developing its characters over time.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 20:42 |
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chernobyl kinsman posted:this is hardly a weakness; 8 months is no time in publishing. the book was doubtless already done and in the hands of the publisher by that point, and doing the subject justice would have entailed a significant delay - not least because the investigations themselves took months and years to unfold (at least one of them is still ongoing). writing in their absence and in the immediate aftermath, when so many false stories were circling in the press, would have been hugely irresponsible. Eh, a 1 sentence line such as "And with the Grenfell Tower disaster, only time will tell what the outcome of the official investigations will be." could have been added to the very end of the epilogue chapter, though UK libel laws might even take issue with a statement that neutral. Otherwise, Built was a good book and definitely worth other people, especially you chernobyl kinsman, reading. e: fixed spelling quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 21, 2019 |
# ? Aug 21, 2019 21:26 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:01 |
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Grenfell.
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# ? Aug 21, 2019 21:39 |