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Pyrolocutus posted:People have already touched on general inconsistencies in 40k lore but I don't see the Inquisition giving up on keeping the existence of demons a secret and trying to keep the fact that some of the Emperor's own sons fell to Chaos a secret, as logically inconsistent. Such a revelation has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than the existence of demons in general I think. One of the post-DI books (Carrion Throne I think) had someone seeing a mural in the Imperial Palace and going "wait didn't the Emperor only have nine sons Wasn't it 20 armoured figures? DUN DUN DUN! I remember that specifically. Also, is there ever gonna be any lore about those two primarchs?
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Sep 22, 2019 16:35
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" and getting a "DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THAT" in response.
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Pyrolocutus posted:One of the post-DI books (Carrion Throne I think) had someone seeing a mural in the Imperial Palace and going "wait didn't the Emperor only have nine sons
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Sep 22, 2019 16:36
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Nuclear War posted:Wasn't it 20 armoured figures? DUN DUN DUN! I remember that specifically. I doubt it. I'm mean the crazy baby eating chaos brothers didn't get redacted like those two so what could they possibly do with them that would top that and be worth it to remove the ability for players to *create their own primarchs*? Other than it being two sister primarchs. Which they totally are.
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Sep 22, 2019 17:25
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Submitted my Black Library entry, don't think it'll be picked up, but it was a nice exercise
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Sep 22, 2019 20:52
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Zasze posted:The new cawl book was fun till they got to sotha then it kinda became objectively bad. Strong disagree, I like it more than Spear of the Emperor (still really good tho) and I'm not comparing them just because its the last 40k book I read but because they share a lot in structure and theme. They're both books about discovery and the importance of knowledge but also narratives dominated by their character explorations. Cawl is such a different character than the majority of stuff I've seen in 40k that it becomes very refreshing to see him work, but the book also wrings a lot of pathos out of the cast it has, its a very emotional book through and through. It's also just wild and fun in the way pulp can be with lots of small scenes of wild vistas with big implications that may never get explored fully but are just interesting to think and dream about. Even being fun though it maintains a high sense of danger and tension and borders right on the line of psychological horror for much of the early exploration. Before getting into big spoiler stuff I wil s ay some of the mystery and revelations are a bit weak though is my main gripe. I'd also say its not a book you should get without having read the dark imperium series books out already because it is very much a sequel to them. To get specific end of book spoilers and gripes about the narrative: I bought the book partially because I like the scythes of the emperor and They get done real dirty hoo boy. Their specific take on what the death of the chapter means and their impending replacement by primaris marines is novel and the ecological subtext about how even if Cawl succeeds in terraforming the world back to livable state it will still not be their Sotha with their memories is neat but the dark secret they must all die to protect and erase being that the world had a genestealer infestation and the last remaining of the small marine old guard dying to kill one broodlord is a real bummer. If you wanna know more about Cawl its a must read becuase you will in fact learn almost everything about cawl, it did not disappoint on that front though.
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Sep 22, 2019 21:13
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I finished the Cawl book and I would definitely peg it as a must read for all lore buffs and anybody interested in the dark imperium era. There is a ton of new lore about Cawl, necrons, c'tan, the original space marine project, the Primaris project, and a lot more besides. The emperor even makes a decent appearance in flashbacks. The reddit lore dump threads are crap and do not give proper context for a lot of things or even have mistakes. I bookmarked as I read the book at intersesting parts. Would anybody be interested in a big spoilery lore dump? Seriously, buy this book.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:47
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D-Pad posted:I finished the Cawl book and I would definitely peg it as a must read for all lore buffs and anybody interested in the dark imperium era. There is a ton of new lore about Cawl, necrons, c'tan, the original space marine project, the Primaris project, and a lot more besides. The emperor even makes a decent appearance in flashbacks. I love lore, so yes.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:21
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D-Pad posted:I finished the Cawl book and I would definitely peg it as a must read for all lore buffs and anybody interested in the dark imperium era. There is a ton of new lore about Cawl, necrons, c'tan, the original space marine project, the Primaris project, and a lot more besides. The emperor even makes a decent appearance in flashbacks. All you need to know before it are the two dark imperium books, yeah? I’ve been putting off reading them but I do love me some Cawl...
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Sep 23, 2019 18:16
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:All you need to know before it are the two dark imperium books, yeah? I’ve been putting off reading them but I do love me some Cawl... You could read it without having read those two, but I wouldn't. They will give a lot of context. I would also read the short story from the summer of reading that sets up some of the plot points in the Cawl book. To Speak As One.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:31
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Everybody hating on the Dark Imperium books, I quite liked them to be honest. It's not your Abnett or your ADB or whoms't'd'vever but I enjoyed the ride.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:16
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Biplane posted:Everybody hating on the Dark Imperium books, I quite liked them to be honest. It's not your Abnett or your ADB or whoms't'd'vever but I enjoyed the ride. Yeah, same here. Some oddities to poo poo on, but hey, a little complaining here and there is fine. We'd barely have anything to talk about if it was all just circlejerking and gushing. Speaking of Dark Imperium books, I just finished the Devastation of Baal audiobook, and it kinda belongs in there. I also have some issues to bitch about (most, honestly, due to the guy that reads it having no loving range whatsoever until the last 20% where it seems a different guy stepped in to finish reading the book), like Solid Snake Lictor being halo-dropped onto Baal after a really cool and sneaky insertion and then it was all for absolutely nothing, but overall, it was entertaining. Then the end had me all "Whaaaaaat?" because I didn't know where in the timeline exactly the book was. Gonna start Lords of Mars on my Kindle tonight and bought the Cawl book on Audible. It's read by John Banks, so that's a step up from whatshisname that read Devastation of Baal at least. Bit bummed that it's a comparatively short book.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:32
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Is there any indication in the lore/books that Chaos may crack the Primaris process? On the one hand, it took a mad genius like Cawl millenia to work it all out. On the other, Fabious Bile has recreated freaking -primarchs- from a viable genetic source.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:37
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Sephyr posted:Is there any indication in the lore/books that Chaos may crack the Primaris process? So, Cawl did all the heavy lifting for Fabius. SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 22:59
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It's super implied (through unreliable narration) that the original primarchs were the result of whatever devil's bargain the Emperor made with Chaos. So while Cawl is trying to reverse engineer the science angle, Bile can dive in unreservedly with the black magic / mad science.
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Sep 23, 2019 23:23
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I will do a big Cawl book effort post in the next day or two, but here is some new lore from the book regarding how easy or not it was for Cawl to create the Primaris: *Big spoilers relating to a major aspect of the ending and the story as a whole. Cawl arrived at Terra shortly at the end of the heresy. He was summoned by a scientist named Sedayne because Cawl had been an acolyte of a tech priest researching consciousness transfer and had a special (heretical) altered memcore that was made to work with the transfer technology, although they had never gotten it to work. Sedayne is over 1,000 years old and at the end of his life. He owes his longetivy to having joined the Emperor's science team working directly under him before the Emperor had revealed himself and started the unification. The Emperor was known in those parts as the Master of Lines and would appear at a purity fair once every year were he would purify the blood of the lines. Which basically means you would get married but not have kids until you had gone to him during the purity fair and he would basically make sure you didn't have any mutated horrors since the Earth was an even worse shithole at the time. Sedayne went looking for him in a journey very similar to the one undertaken by Dante in Devastation of Baal in that he almost died crossing a irradiated wasteland and climbing a giant irradiated mountain. Sedayne ended up leading the Black Carapace part of the Astartes project, without which the project would have failed. Sedayne wants to transfer his mind into Cawl's body. It is explained that Cawl's old magos abandoned the project because one personality always ended up taking over and absorbing the other. The loser only existing as a small piece of the overall new personality, although the winner does have all of their knowledge. Basically he is going to overwrite Cawl because he has the right memcore and he believes now that the Emperor is effectively dead his knowledge and expertise as a true scientist outside the machine cult is more important than ever to the imperium. Of course in the end, despite the odds, Cawl becomes the dominant personality and absorbs all of Sedayne's badass knowledge. He gets primarch creation process knowledge as well. It's also revealed that over the last 10k Cawl had absorbed others that had similarly useful knowledge. Remember he absorbed his Magos knowledge in Wolfsbane too, but not her personality. So it goes a long way in explaining how Cawl was able to pull off the Primaris project. Alpha Primus is his one of a kind Primaris marine that he made as his ultimate bodyguard and servant. It is implied that he was partly made with some of that primarch knowledge. He is a lot more powerful than other Primaris and also an extremely powerful psyker. He has also been in pain for 10,000 years. Cawl never attempted it again, or says he didn't. Most of this is shown in flashbacks and we also get Felix flashbacks showing what it's like to be kidnapped as a child and put in stasis to be taken out every few hundred years to undergo hardcore, painful surgeries with your body going through huge, disorienting changes in between waking periods. Buy the drat book.
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Sep 24, 2019 00:03
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Continuing my read-through of the Horus Heresy, read Outcast Dead, Tales of Heresy and Angel Exterminatus. Outcast Dead was OK. It was cool to actually see Terra and the Imperial Palace but the novelty was kind of undercut when I moved on to Tales of Heresy and read "Blood Games" which is also features the Imperial Palace, has a similar level of impact on the overarching story (i.e. very little) and is much shorter. Angel Exterminatus was much better but suffered from the attention showered on some very boring loyalist characters when it could be spending more time on the Fulgrim and Friends' wacky Slaaneshi hijinks. McNeil did a good job of humanizing Perturabo who makes a good foil to Fulgrim and his constant scenery chewing. His characterization as a reluctant general who went on the Great Crusade essentially because it was what was expected of him is interesting in the context of a primarch. We're used to Primarchs as being dynamic, heroic figures who shape the destiny of the universe but Perturabo seems powerless to shape even his own destiny; he joins the Crusade because it seemed like he has no choice after meeting his father, and he joined the rebellion because it seems like he has no choice after what happened to Olympia. I'm now rereading Know No Fear and there's a great bit where Guilliman is reflecting on his brothers and he lumps Perturabo in with Angron and Leman Russ as someone who has no ambitions beyond fighting the Crusade, which contrasts really well with Perturabo's characterisation in Angel Exterminatus and emphasizes how totally alone among the primarchs he is. Perturabo hates the Great Crusade and dreams of building the Imperium like Guilliman is doing, but he's such an introverted goonlord that everybody thinks of him as no more than a willing cog in the Emperor's war machine. BTW Know No Fear is still very, very good. I had forgotten the present-tense narration, which works really well in a novel which focuses on one event which in this case is basically Warhammer 9/11. One weird thing about it in the context of the Horus Heresy ~lore~ is that despite the Istvaan III massacre having happened two years before the start of the novel, the Ultramarines still have no idea that Horus has rebelled or that anything unusual at all is occurring in the Imperium. In the time that Guilliman has been mustering at Calth: 1) Horus rebels openly at Istvaan III; 2) word of Horus' rebellion has spread to Terra, where Dorn orders a massive counter-attack; 3) The counter-attack has travelled a huge distance to rally at Istvaan IV and been massacred, in part by the Word Bearers; 4) the Word Bearers have then crossed to the other side of the Imperium to throw a surprise party for Guilliman, who still has not heard of 1). Even with the Warp being as screwy as it is the timeline agonizes my inner  . Why not just set Know No Fear a few months after Istvaan IV and attribute the Word Bearer's speed to Chaos being Chaos? It's almost like Black Library is not taking their stories about far-future space jocks hitting each other with swords very seriously!
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Sep 24, 2019 01:46
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D-Pad posted:I will do a big Cawl book effort post in the next day or two, but here is some new lore from the book regarding how easy or not it was for Cawl to create the Primaris: A small thing relating to Cawls origin thats also a spoiler but you didn't put here: Cawl himself was a vatborn clone child of mars implanted with knowledge and grown rapidly to 10 years old but it seems the process normally leaves the child unable to speak or process all the knowledge implanted until further teaching and augments are given. Cawl was mysteriously able to comprehend it and communicate at birth which was very unusual and might have something to do with him becoming the dominant one when the mindlink happened.
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Sep 24, 2019 04:49
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Fallen Hamprince posted:McNeil did a good job of humanizing Perturabo who makes a good foil to Fulgrim and his constant scenery chewing. His characterization as a reluctant general who went on the Great Crusade essentially because it was what was expected of him is interesting in the context of a primarch. We're used to Primarchs as being dynamic, heroic figures who shape the destiny of the universe but Perturabo seems powerless to shape even his own destiny; he joins the Crusade because it seemed like he has no choice after meeting his father, and he joined the rebellion because it seems like he has no choice after what happened to Olympia. I'm now rereading Know No Fear and there's a great bit where Guilliman is reflecting on his brothers and he lumps Perturabo in with Angron and Leman Russ as someone who has no ambitions beyond fighting the Crusade, which contrasts really well with Perturabo's characterisation in Angel Exterminatus and emphasizes how totally alone among the primarchs he is. Perturabo hates the Great Crusade and dreams of building the Imperium like Guilliman is doing, but he's such an introverted goonlord that everybody thinks of him as no more than a willing cog in t Emperor's war machine. Perturabo is one of the most human of the Primarchs and along with Mortarion is really over of the self made victims. The latter because he keeps setting himself goals he can't accomplish because he was raised by an abusive sociopath who used expectations and engendered ideas of worthlessness as a means of control (I was going to make a joke about the Emperor here but he actually never gave enough of a gently caress about them to bother manipulating any Primarchs). Perturabo is 100% a massive goon lord who sees his brothers doing things he longs he could do but also refuses to do anything other than what he's ordered to do. Then gets mad because no one is able to read his mind and realise he doesn't just long for eternal war. He is 100% the quiet, helpful, boring guy in the office who comes in one day to shoot everyone because he has secretly hated office work and wanted to be a painter who works outdoors. And now he's stuck in prison and is still blaming everyone else that he's not able to just go live his dreams.
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Sep 24, 2019 09:22
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Pyrolocutus posted:People have already touched on general inconsistencies in 40k lore but I don't see the Inquisition giving up on keeping the existence of demons a secret and trying to keep the fact that some of the Emperor's own sons fell to Chaos a secret, as logically inconsistent. Such a revelation has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than the existence of demons in general I think. One of the post-DI books (Carrion Throne I think) had someone seeing a mural in the Imperial Palace and going "wait didn't the Emperor only have nine sons Bit late to this, but I've mentioned before that in Pariah the main character recalls some childhood nursery rhyme about the "9 that turned and the 9 that stood", so it really is a local thing
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Sep 24, 2019 09:27
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Dog_Meat posted:Bit late to this, but I've mentioned before that in Pariah the main character recalls some childhood nursery rhyme about the "9 that turned and the 9 that stood", so it really is a local thing The main character in Pariah grew up in a Cognitae orphanage/school, so it's pretty safe to say that her education was a bit nonstandard.
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Sep 24, 2019 10:22
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Khizan posted:The main character in Pariah grew up in a Cognitae orphanage/school, so it's pretty safe to say that her education was a bit nonstandard. Oh yeah. I forgot that bit!
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Sep 24, 2019 11:54
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Fallen Hamprince posted:One weird thing about it in the context of the Horus Heresy ~lore~ is that despite the Istvaan III massacre having happened two years before the start of the novel, the Ultramarines still have no idea that Horus has rebelled or that anything unusual at all is occurring in the Imperium. In the time that Guilliman has been mustering at Calth: 1) Horus rebels openly at Istvaan III; 2) word of Horus' rebellion has spread to Terra, where Dorn orders a massive counter-attack; 3) The counter-attack has travelled a huge distance to rally at Istvaan IV and been massacred, in part by the Word Bearers; 4) the Word Bearers have then crossed to the other side of the Imperium to throw a surprise party for Guilliman, who still has not heard of 1). Even with the Warp being as screwy as it is the timeline agonizes my inner It's because the Ultramarines are complete poo poo, OP? That's why  is spewing: he just discovered that he's an Ultramarine.
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Sep 24, 2019 12:52
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Schadenboner posted:It's because the Ultramarines are complete poo poo, OP? That's why I think I like more ultramarines and imperial fists and their successors characters now than most other chapters. I was real excited to read more on the salamanders but I havent found a book or story on them I liked as much as the crimson fists or iron snakes and even dark imperium has a couple ultras i like.
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Sep 24, 2019 20:58
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Khizan posted:The main character in Pariah grew up in a Cognitae orphanage/school, so it's pretty safe to say that her education was a bit nonstandard. Was it supposed to be a Cognitae school? I assume so, but then she talks about the Cognitae trying to infiltrate the school and Bequin acts more like the Cognitae-trained people than most people we've seen, and they're making pariahs into not-demons and... I mean, yeah, it's a Cognitae school, it just seemed odd that it... wasn't like how the schools were described in the earlier books. Unless the school is the way it is because it was one of Eisenhorne's Distaff centers that was subverted rather than destroyed.
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Sep 24, 2019 21:45
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Randalor posted:Was it supposed to be a Cognitae school? I assume so, but then she talks about the Cognitae trying to infiltrate the school and Bequin acts more like the Cognitae-trained people than most people we've seen, and they're making pariahs into not-demons and... I mean, yeah, it's a Cognitae school, it just seemed odd that it... wasn't like how the schools were described in the earlier books. Unless the school is the way it is because it was one of Eisenhorne's Distaff centers that was subverted rather than destroyed. It was possibly an inquisitorial schola that was co-op'd by the cognitae for the yellow king, what any of that means is still in flux till they continue with that storyline.
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Sep 24, 2019 22:38
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The concept of a hyper genius blank being able to wield Enuncia is pretty scary to the greater imperium.
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Sep 24, 2019 22:42
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Anybody from this thread going to the weekender in November? I'd love it if someone could pick up some pre-release books for me. I'd pay for your copies for the trouble!
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Sep 25, 2019 18:39
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After finishing Priests of Mars, I feel like I have a very solid grasp on the absolutely monumental size of an Ark Mechanicum. A grasp of the sheer scale dwarfing all other scales that we measure void ships by. The gravity-altering presence of a craft massive enough to affect the orbits of stellar objects. And now I'm kicking off The Great Work to Cawl jumping his Ark not just to a perilous in-system translation point, but into the loving orbit of a planet while his senior acolyte screams WORLDSTAR Hell of a way to get this character rolling. 
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Sep 25, 2019 19:00
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Duzzy Funlop posted:After finishing Priests of Mars, I feel like I have a very solid grasp on the absolutely monumental size of an Ark Mechanicum. A grasp of the sheer scale dwarfing all other scales that we measure void ships by. The gravity-altering presence of a craft massive enough to affect the orbits of stellar objects. Cawl spoilers: Cawl has the largest ark mechanicus in existence. So large that he sends 400k servitors down to the planet to start terraforming without draining his resources.
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Sep 25, 2019 20:19
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Just finished Cawl too. I was a bit dubious about the book because this exact plot has been done to death before but the way it unfolds and ends makes it great. It starts with the classic team of Space Marines/Mechanicus going into a tomb/fortress/temple/dungeon/whatever to find a priceless relic/forbidden knowledge/McGuffin of Destiny with all the best good intentions and then everything going downhill from there. The twist is that instead of the usual heroic sacrifice to keep the Big Bad Evil of Doom and destroying the MacGuffin of Destiny because it turns out is super dangerious, our good lad manipulated the Big Bad Evil, releases it, gets the MacGuffin of Destiny and gets away unharmed and uncorrupted, like a friggin boss, and because he doesn't give a drat about tradition he's actually in position to help humanity and make a difference. In fewer words, Cawl is a magnificient bastard and I liked it this way.
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Sep 25, 2019 23:03
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Just started reading the Cawl book and I can't get it out of my head that Cawl is the Tony Stark of 40k.
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Sep 26, 2019 03:37
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Angry Lobster posted:Just finished Cawl too. Im not super well read in these books but out of everybody Ive read guy haley in the current, advancing, storyline seems to have the most hopeful spin of the grim darkness in his writing. Sacrifice and death will be meted, the imperium is flawed and broken and beset on all sides, but enough will and fury still exists to possibly turn back the tide of darker forces. Other writers i like such as dembski-bowden or abnett have heroics too but the outlook is usually more dour and in tune with the classic view of the imperium as destined to dim and die. Fehervari ive only read one thing of but its like abject existential horror which is neat. Also shoutout to danie wares sister of battle stories, they were the first shorts i read and what convinced me to check out more black library books. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 05:29
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Z the IVth posted:Just started reading the Cawl book and I can't get it out of my head that Cawl is the Tony Stark of 40k. Cawl definitely has some serious demons, the flashbacks got pretty grim. They were definitely needed though, otherwise the book would have devolved into Cawl dunking on everybody while ripping out bitchin' guitar solos
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Sep 26, 2019 21:50
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Question regarding the Primaris Marines. Obviously on the tabletop they use their own squads and force organization charts separate from the OG Marines. In the books do they operate as a separate organization or do they have mixed squad structures, with Primaris Marines operating inside something like a Tactical Squad?
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Sep 26, 2019 23:19
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The writing in the Cawl book must be pretty good, because the actual plot points people have been tossing here seem...kind of awful? -See, he's a special miracle science child! The others all failed or required extra care but he was just born knowing lots! -Then someone tried to eat his mind, but he's so special he ate THEIRS instead and got even smarter! And then he's done it all over again and now his smarts is over 9000000 -Then he made himself a SUPER bodyguard that's stronger than even the other strong guys, oh and a megapsyker too because otherwise he'd be punked by some sorcerer, so he wipes his rear end with Eldrad. But it's not just perks, he's in -pain- all the time, it makes him super emo guys! He's -deep- like that. -By the way he knows Primarch-fu even though the Emperor himself barely managed to make 20 of the things and it took bargaining with the Powers Beyond. Also he has the bestest, huuugest ship and can just terraform a planet like that, doesn't even make his resource gauge wiggle! That doesn't sound like being the 40k tony stark. Not even a huge fan of the movies but Stark actuall screws up and pays for it, has to make tough choices that cost him friends and more, and actually changes. So I might pass.
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Sep 28, 2019 17:02
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Cawl being Tony Stark seems like a pretty shallow reading of him based on "High tech! Makes weapons for the government!" His outlook is more like Dr. Manhattan in that he barely comprehends what it's like to be a Space Marine, much less a normal human. He sees the end state he wants and that's it, everything else works in service of that. This is probably also a bad comparaison, really. (I'm also only like ~20% done with the book so I might be totally wrong here.)
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Sep 28, 2019 17:44
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The Great Work seems like it's a sequel to a specific book I don't have.
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Sep 28, 2019 18:24
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Sephyr posted:The writing in the Cawl book must be pretty good, because the actual plot points people have been tossing here seem...kind of awful? None of those are plot points of the novel except the second. Cawl himself is the secondary figure in the story with his history told in a many times fractured flashback. If you just pull random details and events divorced from the narrative or context of course it won't sound good. Cawls narrative arc without the storyline advancing spoilers is one of constant doubt and apprehension and regret, his self assurance in his own abilities and knowledge leading to unnecessay sacrifice that he still deems acceptable for his end goals. Hes a very cool character. Biplane posted:The Great Work seems like it's a sequel to a specific book I don't have. It takes place after dark inperium and plague war and the main character and their character arc is introduced in those works so theyre worth checking out. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 18:41
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Arcsquad12 posted:Question regarding the Primaris Marines. Obviously on the tabletop they use their own squads and force organization charts separate from the OG Marines. In the books do they operate as a separate organization or do they have mixed squad structures, with Primaris Marines operating inside something like a Tactical Squad? Biplane posted:The Great Work seems like it's a sequel to a specific book I don't have. More like a sequel to a bunch of game supplements. I don't think they released many actual books for Gathering Storm. Like Devastation of Baal, Watchers of the Throne and Cadia Stands. But none of those have anything to do with Cawl I don't think.
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Sep 28, 2019 18:52
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Guyver posted:From what I've read they redeploy as units to whatever chapter they go to. So there's no integration yet. Primaris squads are really replacements not reinforcements. That sounds like a rather inefficient method of helping understrength marine chapters. The Primaris organization means that they have more specialized units, but if a chapter is lacking in devastators or Tac squads they either need to over invest in Primaris units to reach the same level of tactical flexibility or end up hamstrung in certain departments. Unless of course the intent is to drive the OG Marines down the road of the Thunder Warriors and kill them off over time. But there's a lot more OGs to deal with and I doubt they'd go quietly into the night if the order came down to replace them permanently. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 20:14
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