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Cicero posted:Yeah, but I really don't think laying pipes or whatever is equivalent to what hunter gatherers did all day. Hunter-gatherers got more time off. Pretty sure it's been proven that most literal feudal peasants got more time off than American workers do now.
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Oct 19, 2019 15:34
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https://twitter.com/Dropbox/status/809089934501945344?s=19
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Oct 19, 2019 15:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Hunter-gatherers got more time off. I think that sort of inherently includes the winter months where they were forced to sleep most of the day to conserve energy so they wouldn't run out of food and starve though. And lol no subsistence farming isn't some magical frou frou candyland where you just get loads of time off.
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Oct 19, 2019 16:06
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Hunter-gatherers got more time off. Lol
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Oct 19, 2019 16:26
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Feinne posted:I think that sort of inherently includes the winter months where they were forced to sleep most of the day to conserve energy so they wouldn't run out of food and starve though. And lol no subsistence farming isn't some magical frou frou candyland where you just get loads of time off. Yeah and during the times of highest labor during the year you're doing a shitload of hard manual labor and that wears you down hard. The fact that you got to sit around the house or a village pub doesn't really make up for that. I've seen a lot of dumb social media stuff lately that's like "the peasants got over 12 weeks of vacation a year" and man, I really don't think you get to count the downtime as vacations when you barely have the option to go a few dozen miles away or whatever. And in that same time period, the nobility is getting to do poo poo like gently caress off away from their main country home to spend a season of parties and dances and banquets in the important cities, or to take a leisurely tour of Europe and sometimes North Africa and the 'Holy Land'.
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Oct 19, 2019 16:36
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the peasant comparison is weird because you can just compare it to the nordic countries where they work an average (almost) two months less than we do.
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Oct 19, 2019 16:38
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I think earnestly posting about how life was better as a feudal peasant or about how manual labor takes less of a toll on the human body than pressing buttons on a computer is a sign that maybe you need to take a break from reading the news media sources feeding your victim mentality.
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Oct 19, 2019 16:45
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fishmech posted:Yeah and during the times of highest labor during the year you're doing a shitload of hard manual labor and that wears you down hard. The fact that you got to sit around the house or a village pub doesn't really make up for that. The list I saw include that point was very mask-off, one of the things in favor of the peasant was 'never heard of feminism'.
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Oct 19, 2019 17:14
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Pro: you don't have to go to meetings Con: you die by 30 Also the only reason white collar workers think poo poo like "hmm working in something physical might be nice" is because they haven't ever had a proper physical job, they've only done the thing as a hobby which, surprise surprise, is actually enjoyable. Once you have a supervisor breathing down your neck exploiting the gently caress out of you it kinda stops being fun So yeah we should make sure all workers have reasonable hours, plenty of chances to feel useful and grow in the role they enjoy, and get paid enough to lead a comfortable life no matter what they do Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 19, 2019 |
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Oct 19, 2019 17:40
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Computers is the only reason I can hold a job. I did the service and manual labor jobs and I'm never going back!
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Oct 19, 2019 17:51
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Pochoclo posted:Pro: you don't have to go to meetings Another aspect is people think of it as like well my uncle's a plumber or an electrician and he does great! While forgetting that said uncle had easily 20-30 years of lovely work beforehand to get to the position he has now where he has apprentices and employees who can take the load off of him, and also has what amounts to enough local prestige to really set his terms for payment and job scope. And that can also still come tumbling down in an instant. One of my own uncles was doing very well for himself as an electrician, but he had some kind of accident on a job site and recovering from it left him unable to work for months and some of the people he had hired moved onto working with other people. He ended up not being able to keep up on his mortgage and had to sell the house to get that taking care of and move into a kinda lovely apartment on short notice, store old furniture and keepsakes with relatives, etc. Still hasn't been able to get a house, even a smaller one (let's be honest the place he'd moved his family to before the accident was a bit much) and it's been nearly 5 years now as he rebuilds from it.
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Oct 19, 2019 18:04
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Best response: "Is diversity taking the picture?"
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Oct 19, 2019 23:56
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Motronic posted:Best response: "Is diversity taking the picture?" Diversity is just out of the frame, laughing with them.
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Oct 20, 2019 00:00
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The really sad thing is, if that was a software development team, it'd be an immense amount of diversity, because those are like 95% white males
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Oct 20, 2019 00:17
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Pochoclo posted:The really sad thing is, if that was a software development team, it'd be an immense amount of diversity, because those are like 95% white males It's like you're not even counting the Indian, and Chinese diversity hires who love our company so much they'll leave the country "because their Visa mandates it" if they lose the job!
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Oct 20, 2019 00:20
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Groovelord Neato posted:the peasant comparison is weird because you can just compare it to the nordic countries where they work an average (almost) two months less than we do. Not sure about the whole two months but I have 6 weeks paid vacation plus bank holidays which I guess add up too. Not complaining 
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Oct 20, 2019 00:51
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Pochoclo posted:Pro: you don't have to go to meetings I'm a computer toucher now. Part of this is because I can't really do physical labor anymore thanks to some broken parts. Not 40 hours a week, anyway. I'd prefer to go back to unloading trucks.
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Oct 20, 2019 00:52
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There's plenty of diversity in that picture. R-L: Big cans, medium cans, small cans.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Hunter-gatherers got more time off. Feudal peasants had to grind their grain for bread and cook it this sole act took in excess of 8 hrs a day. Just to feed the family supper. Being at home and being off is a different thing.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:13
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Feudal peasants had to grind their grain for bread and cook it this sole act took in excess of 8 hrs a day. Just to feed the family supper.
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Oct 20, 2019 04:15
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Yeah. Hunter-gatherers have free time to mess around. Peasants are working nonstop to feed and clothe not just themselves but their overlords. Subsistence farming is hard enough, but subsistence farming where you're paying a tithe and/or providing actual labor to the landlord is worse. In particularly, a woman needs to be spinning nonstop to keep the family clothed. Spinning bread or spinning thread Life of a peasant.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:07
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Spinning bread or spinning thread Well, you could always go fight in a war somewhere. Options!
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Oct 20, 2019 08:39
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InAndOutBrennan posted:Not sure about the whole two months but I have 6 weeks paid vacation plus bank holidays which I guess add up too. in terms of hours worked per year, americans work 7.5 full-time weeks more than people in the nordic countries.
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Oct 20, 2019 12:20
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Motronic posted:Best response: "Is diversity taking the picture?" mediaphage posted:
Moneyed interests in America have been devaluing workers and encouraging workers to devalue themselves for the entirety of this country’s history which is why it’s so engrained in people here that they should suffer and get nothing for their toil, while workers in other developed western countries have mandatory sick leave, mandatory paid time off, and in some places do crazy poo poo like consider time spent traveling to work as time at work. i am harry fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 15:41
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Woops meant to edit that last post rather than quote it
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Oct 20, 2019 15:46
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i am harry posted:Moneyed interests in America have been devaluing workers and encouraging workers to devalue themselves for the entirety of this country’s history which is why it’s so engrained in people here that they should suffer and get nothing for their toil, while workers in other developed western countries have mandatory sick leave, mandatory paid time off, and in some places do crazy poo poo like consider time spent traveling to work as time at work. One of the coolest parts about Europe is finding out the cashier at the convenience store is going to spend 2-3 weeks at the beach. As an American it didn't even dawn on me that service people could be paid while not at work. It is very nice.
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Oct 20, 2019 16:13
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InAndOutBrennan posted:Not sure about the whole two months but I have 6 weeks paid vacation plus bank holidays which I guess add up too. That's double what's considered "good" vacation time in the USA, and workers often only get off for super-major bank holidays like Christmas and Thanksgiving.
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Oct 20, 2019 16:53
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In lots of retail you're not allowed to call out or ask off on holidays, nor do you get holiday pay. Such as the largest employer in America, Walmart
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Oct 20, 2019 17:06
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And in increasing number of white collar jobs instead of getting holidays off you are required to use your vacation days for the holidays instead. So you must spend some of your 10-14 days of vacation (lucky you, better be thankful you get any days at all!) a year on Christmas through New Years or whatever other holidays your boss demands.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:12
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In the middle of the Extraordinary Missionary Month of October, the Pope’s Worldwide Prayer Network launched the “Click To Pray eRosary” at a press conference in the Vatican on October 15. The Click To Pray eRosary is an interactive, smart and app-driven wearable device that serves as a tool for learning how to pray the rosary for peace in the world. It can be worn as a bracelet and is activated by making the sign of the cross. It is synchronized with a free app of the same name, which allows access to an audio guide, exclusive images and personalized content about the praying of the Rosary. :format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19297648/img_mob_page_03_616_366f60c94f656b15fae3bc05b0906cc1.png)
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Oct 20, 2019 17:31
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I'm always surprised more Americans who claim Irish/Italian passports (both of which are fairly easy to qualify for) don't move to Europe. I've worked on both continents in white collar jobs, and the quality of life is just massively different. Having 7 weeks paid leave a year (including bank holidays), plus at least a week of paid sick days, just makes a massive difference. If you're paid poorly you can at least sit at home and mentally recharge/spend time with your family with your leave, if you're financially comfortable most people take a couple of 2 week vacations a year plus a few long weekend trips, as well as days off for family events, weddings etc. Its not even like theres a massive pay difference, or any language barrier moving to Ireland in particular. Or to London, or even Amsterdam.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:36
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Blut posted:I'm always surprised more Americans who claim Irish/Italian passports (both of which are fairly easy to qualify for) don't move to Europe. I've worked on both continents in white collar jobs, and the quality of life is just massively different. Having 7 weeks paid leave a year (including bank holidays), plus at least a week of paid sick days, just makes a massive difference. If you're paid poorly you can at least sit at home and mentally recharge/spend time with your family with your leave, if you're financially comfortable most people take a couple of 2 week vacations a year plus a few long weekend trips, as well as days off for family events, weddings etc. When I was first out of college and looking at an impossible amount of debt (no job yet) I had piled up some student loan savings to move to New Zealand. I ended up getting an ok Job and skipped this plan, but I am really shocked more kids are not doing it.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:07
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Civilized Fishbot posted:In the middle of the Extraordinary Missionary Month of October, the Pope’s Worldwide Prayer Network launched the “Click To Pray eRosary” at a press conference in the Vatican on October 15. Your Top 10 Causes to Pray For Today Oh no! It seems you've run out of Prayer Beads! Wait 6 hours to recharge, or click here to receive more through the grace of a small donation.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:30
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Civilized Fishbot posted:In the middle of the Extraordinary Missionary Month of October, the Pope’s Worldwide Prayer Network launched the “Click To Pray eRosary” at a press conference in the Vatican on October 15. Praying the Rosary is long and boring as gently caress so props to the Vatican for adding achievement support at least.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:39
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Blut posted:I'm always surprised more Americans who claim Irish/Italian passports (both of which are fairly easy to qualify for) don't move to Europe. I've worked on both continents in white collar jobs, and the quality of life is just massively different. Having 7 weeks paid leave a year (including bank holidays), plus at least a week of paid sick days, just makes a massive difference. If you're paid poorly you can at least sit at home and mentally recharge/spend time with your family with your leave, if you're financially comfortable most people take a couple of 2 week vacations a year plus a few long weekend trips, as well as days off for family events, weddings etc. The answer to this is extremely simple. It is really, really hard to do, even if you have the passport thing covered. I know, I did it and I'm moving back to the US next week for a job with less interesting work, fewer benefits and about the same pay/cost-of-living ratio. You leave behind your entire safety and social network and end up completely dependent on your company to get you situated and if the person who is tasked with helping you is a dumpster fire of idiocy, you're hosed. Even well-meaning people just don't understand why its different for you because you don't have the lifetime of local context to help you understand what is going on. Maybe its easier if you speak the local language.* Maybe its easier if you have someone to come home to and share in the tough parts. I don't know. But for me, it has been somehow terrible and boring at the same time and I'm really tired of being alone all the time. * On this point and to your point about Amsterdam. Unless government/general business is conducted in a language you speak, it doesn't matter that all the waiters or whatever speak it. Google translate will literally translate a picture of a menu. The problem is trying to figure out what you do or say when you go to the hospital and the staff there says the health card your company issued isn't genuine and can't be used. MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 20:07
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Actually the pay difference between the US and western Europe for white collar professionals is usually quite large, excepting like Switzerland/Luxembourg/Norway. Income inequality favors you if you're on the right side of it, after all, and the US' GDP per capita is substantially higher (albeit a large portion of that is just working a lot more hours). I actually did make that jump, going to Germany, but it involved a substantial pay cut. But on the upside, double the vacation was quite nice.
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Oct 20, 2019 21:11
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Yeah I’ve heard that too—obviously quality of life is kind of a subjective judgement, but I’ve heard that it is better financially to be upper-middle class in America vs. Europe.
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Oct 20, 2019 21:27
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Also, significantly reduced chance of getting shot at.
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Oct 20, 2019 21:28
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People also tend to have strong emotional attachments to the country and culture they grew up in, even it is bad in many ways
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Oct 20, 2019 21:36
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MickeyFinn posted:The answer to this is extremely simple. It is really, really hard to do, even if you have the passport thing covered. I know, I did it and I'm moving back to the US next week for a job with less interesting work, fewer benefits and about the same pay/cost-of-living ratio. Where did you move to/from? Did you have a passport for each country? Its much, much easier to move in that case. I'd never advocate anyone trying to move country on a work visa, thats an entirely different (much harder) ballgame. But my point was relating to the many Americans who already have, or who qualify, for Italian/Irish passports. I moved from the US East Coast to California. And back again. And from the East Coast to Dublin. And I found it easier logistically moving to Ireland. Its a comparable distance away, the same language, and a similar culture. Its no different in terms of leaving behind your safety and social network than any other medium-haul distance move. Re: Language both Dublin and London are obviously entirely English speaking. Amsterdam is mostly English speaking for MNC tech/finance rolls these days, and English fluency is probably close to that found in Alabama in the general population. There are absolutely no problems dealing with government employees in it. To be clear I'm not arguing a big move is a super easy thing to do. But its just that its quite common for white collar professionals to move from Boston or NYC to LA or San Fran for work. But not to move to Dublin or London. Which I've always found odd, given the similar effort involved. And the huge lifestyle benefits to be had. This isn't even touching on the student debt issue which someone else brought up, which is always something I've wondered about. Would moving permanently from the US to Europe effectively allow someone to skip out on $100k of student debt if they had it? Cicero posted:Actually the pay difference between the US and western Europe for white collar professionals is usually quite large, excepting like Switzerland/Luxembourg/Norway. Income inequality favors you if you're on the right side of it, after all, and the US' GDP per capita is substantially higher (albeit a large portion of that is just working a lot more hours). I took a paycut of about 20% moving to Europe. But went from under 10 days vacation a year to 34 vacation days + unquestioned paid 5 sick days, and 5 more paid sick days with a doctor's note. So basically 8 weeks vacation a year. And from regular 50 hour weeks to 40 hour weeks on the button every week. None of which are unusual for European white collar jobs. Which made it entirely worthwhile, to me anyway. The pay difference varies a lot, though. If you're a very high earner in the US ($200k+) yeah you're going to have to take a big paycut. But for a lot of middle income white collar jobs ($60-$120k) its possible to get a similar wage in places that I mentioned like Dublin/London/Amsterdam. GDP per capita isn't an ideal way to measure things, but even using that since you mention it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_regions_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita You can see how highly ranked the EU fintech job centers rank. The salary difference is a lot, lot smaller these days than it used to be 10 or 20 years ago.
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Oct 20, 2019 22:30
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