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Darth Walrus posted:The problem is that he didn't need to take his girls with him when Gjallarhorn put a bounty on his head. There was literally no reason for them to be anywhere near Dainsleif range other than their worship of him overriding their sense of self-preservation. He could have just left them with McMurdo, which is what ends up happening anyway after his death. He got so wrapped up in his cult of personality that he ended up prioritising their belief that he could keep them safe over actually keeping them safe. It's a very intentional piece of foreshadowing of the fall of Tekkadan, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the new leader of the Turbines at the end of the series is a woman who rose from the ranks of her peers (and presumably isn't banging all of them). Azee isn't a husband-god to her girls, and that's a good thing for keeping them capable of independent thought. Did you forget the part where the show openly acknowledges that the only reason the girls are safe and employed is because of Naze's mob connections, and how most of them are put in really goddamn terrible danger after his death and are only saved and made safe due to McMurdo feeling bad about how things went down? Remember when Lafter was killed in a bout of gangland violence immediately after Naze's death and the only reason the perpetrator suffered any consequences at all was because Tekkadan went rogue and burnt all their bridges to claim vengeance? He literally, factually, indisputably WAS the only reason why they were kept safe at the time. It's a plot point in the show that women are basically chattel in the criminal underworld and Naze was a super weird dude because he employed the girls instead of pump and dumping them. Kanos fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 2, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 20:50
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Argas posted:It's not like they had a second ship with registration papers that wouldn't link them to the Turbines. IIRC the Turbines' stuff got locked down almost immediately and the only reason force was used with Naze and crew was because Iok wanted to. It's not like they sailed off from Teiwaz and decided not to turn around when it happened. I don't recall if it's quite clear where they were but the framing isn't that they could've gotten off the ship at any time. I think that they did actually just sail off from Saisei when the news broke. Naze was certainly able to chat with McMurdo in person, which would have been a perfect time to go 'hey boss, I can't protect my people any more, can you do it?' I mean, he's the head of Teiwaz. Nothing in the outer worlds is beyond his reach, and he's got plenty of contacts in Gjallarhorn.
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Nov 2, 2019 20:53
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Darth Walrus posted:I think that they did actually just sail off from Saisei when the news broke. Naze was certainly able to chat with McMurdo in person, which would have been a perfect time to go 'hey boss, I can't protect my people any more, can you do it?' I mean, he's the head of Teiwaz. Nothing in the outer worlds is beyond his reach, and he's got plenty of contacts in Gjallarhorn. Went through a quick scan of a few episodes. As far as I can see, it's not as you've remembered. He calls McMurdo, they don't chat in person. It's certainly possible that they may have been in range to turn around and go to Saisei but I doubt it. Tekkadan says goodbye to the Turbines on Mars before they go to Saisei to get the Barbatos repaired. It wouldn't really make sense if they both went to Saisei to have the goodbyes on Mars. The show also doesn't frame what Naze is doing as some insane risk because of his ego. He puts up the Hammerhead as a decoy, figuring he can buy enough time for the other Turbines ship to evacuate and get away. Then he can surrender or maybe even die if necessary, but at least the rest of the girls are safe. The only reason the plan doesn't work is because Iok broke out the dainsleifs, which can pierce ships at beyond conventional range.
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Nov 2, 2019 21:08
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Honestly this just highlights more and more why I prefer to pretend that IBO was only a single season show(same with 00 for that matter)
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Nov 2, 2019 21:39
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Naze was already a beatific space harem saint in season 1.
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Nov 2, 2019 21:45
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drrockso20 posted:Honestly this just highlights more and more why I prefer to pretend that IBO was only a single season show(same with 00 for that matter) S1 sucked too, S2 is just worse.
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Nov 2, 2019 22:07
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Droyer posted:S1 sucked too, S2 is just worse. Nah
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Nov 2, 2019 22:23
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They were both good.
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Nov 2, 2019 22:27
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Reco vs ibo, round loving 9854
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Nov 2, 2019 23:23
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They were both good.
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Nov 2, 2019 23:29
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Gripweed posted:They were both good.
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Nov 3, 2019 00:07
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Gripweed posted:They were both good.
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Nov 3, 2019 00:15
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How dare you like a series? We must hate everything.
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Nov 3, 2019 01:21
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IBO is a series that has a lot of individual parts I like but none of them really come together for me. The first season is a lot more cohesive than the second except for the part where they needed a second season so all the consequences are put off until S2 and then they have to reiterate the plot to get there. I also like McGillis in theory but he feels so weirdly disconnected from the main cast even when he's literally on their side. Edit: Honestly like there's three different shows I like in IBO but they all run parallel and none of them really get what they needed. I would say Juliet and Galigali are absolutely the strongest part of the show, with Mika being close but dragged down by most of the plots connected to him. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 01:40
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ImpAtom posted:IBO is a series that has a lot of individual parts I like but none of them really come together for me. The first season is a lot more cohesive than the second except for the part where they needed a second season so all the consequences are put off until S2 and then they have to reiterate the plot to get there. I liked McGillis in S1 a lot where he was this excellent manipulator. There's a really good scene where Orga (and I think someone else I forget the specifics) realize they're dancing in the palm of his hand but there's nothing they can do about it. He's like Ribbons in 00 except he takes a far more active role in the story. Unfortunately just like Ribbons S2 turns him into a complete moron with retroactive motivations and characterization that wasn't hinted at at all in S1. There's also the problem of a might makes right villain who is defeated in combat so the show never actually refutes his ideology in a thematic sense but that's so common it would be unfair of me to single IBO out for it.
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Nov 3, 2019 02:05
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Naze definitely hosed up. In case people forgot, he told Orga to not get involved, which might have made sense with the initial plan, but it was near suicide in the one Iok left them with. If it hadn't been for Shino and Akihiro coming in for the save, none of the Turbines on that run would have gotten out alive, and the remainder of the organization would likely have been torn apart and tossed to the wolves, unlike in the show where Azee was able to keep them together as a major player. (With the ending implying she'd be McMurdo's successor as the leader of Teiwaz) I think IBO was sympathetic to Naze and Orga overall, but it didn't think they were always right. Naze was a best case scenario for Tekkadan's future, an unconventional family (with some... questionable traits) that still cared for each other and made sure its members would always have a place, but he still had some of Orga's flaws, (Like a tendency to assume he could take the weight of the world's problems all on his own) and in the end, they got him and a lot of people he loved killed. As for McGillis, his philosophy was pretty thoroughly refuted, with his lone wolf piloting being defeated by Gaelio with (a very messed up version of) the power of friendship, and his political scheming defeated by Rustal, whose power comes entirely from the systems he embodies rather than personal strength. In Iron Blooded Orphans, the people who tried to break the system through strength of arms wound up broken themselves. The winners were all people who knew how to play the game.
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Nov 3, 2019 02:36
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I really do not envy whoever has to handle the SRW game that first includes IBO season 2, cause that will be a right mess to handle
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Nov 3, 2019 02:51
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I don't think you understand srw if you think IBO is what's going to trip it up
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Nov 3, 2019 03:09
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Yeah SRW has no real issue working around your team working with assholes and misfits. SRW is a franchise that paired New Getter(where 2/3 of the Getter Team are literal sociopathic murderers) with an entire cast of children's anime in one game.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:10
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Droyer posted:I liked McGillis in S1 a lot where he was this excellent manipulator. There's a really good scene where Orga (and I think someone else I forget the specifics) realize they're dancing in the palm of his hand but there's nothing they can do about it. He's like Ribbons in 00 except he takes a far more active role in the story. Unfortunately just like Ribbons S2 turns him into a complete moron with retroactive motivations and characterization that wasn't hinted at at all in S1. There's also the problem of a might makes right villain who is defeated in combat so the show never actually refutes his ideology in a thematic sense but that's so common it would be unfair of me to single IBO out for it. McGillis wasn't a might makes right villain, he was a symbol of rightness makes right villain. His plan was that the might of the Gjallarhorn army wouldn't matter because he would show up in the Bael and most people would just be like, oh he's the good guy then.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:13
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Kanos posted:Yeah SRW has no real issue working around your team working with assholes and misfits. SRW is a franchise that paired New Getter(where 2/3 of the Getter Team are literal sociopathic murderers) with an entire cast of children's anime in one game. I meant more in the respect that it's plot is a complicated mess even by Gundam standards
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Nov 3, 2019 03:20
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SRW V wove getter ways into cross ange into spaceship yamato as if it was meant to be. IBO wouldn't even be the first martian orphans they dealt with.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:40
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drrockso20 posted:I meant more in the respect that it's plot is a complicated mess even by Gundam standards IBO isn't really any more complicated than something like Zeta and way less complicated than something like G-Reco(which they already did once). Like Gjallarhorn are basically the Titans and McGillis is basically a Char/Scirocco fusion.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:48
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I'm not saying they can't make it work, I'm just saying it will probably take a bit more work than normal
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Nov 3, 2019 03:48
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Season 2 can be mostly be played straight with the rest of the SRW cast telling Orga 'this plan is stupid and reckless but we've still got your back because we're a team' (repeat an needed for the amount of stupid and reckless decisions he makes) Then the finale has everyone who needs to survive survive because an SRW protagonist team is the biggest concentrated mass of raw firepower in the solar system + the Invaders will show up to eat Rustal's fleet or something necessitating a hasty ceasefire.
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Nov 3, 2019 03:54
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The question is how many martians can we fit in a srw when IBO debuts
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Nov 3, 2019 04:02
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Frozen Teardrop here we go.
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Nov 3, 2019 04:12
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Gripweed posted:McGillis wasn't a might makes right villain, he was a symbol of rightness makes right villain. His plan was that the might of the Gjallarhorn army wouldn't matter because he would show up in the Bael and most people would just be like, oh he's the good guy then. He was an abused child who never grew up, clinging to a child's dream of a symbol. He wasn't stupid, just blindly working from a storybook and believing it would ring true in the end. All his decisions do make sense, just from a very damaged perspective ("The Seven Stars ARE ALL MY ENEMIES..." so he uses even the members who would've happily sided with him if he'd asked as disposable pawns and burns them without consideration).
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Nov 3, 2019 04:19
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Tae posted:The question is how many martians can we fit in a srw when IBO debuts Lessee... Martian Successor Nadisco Daitarn 3 Aldnoah Zero Zone of the Enders Gundam AGE Gundam F90 Gundam SEED Delta Astray Cowboy Bebop Diebuster(!) You also have Gun X Sword on Mars in T.
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Nov 3, 2019 04:21
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I've heard the defences of IBO's ending before but no matter how many times I hear it, it doesn't change that people would be weird singing that if it was the Titans and AEUG. "Why does anyone in the world give a poo poo about the son of a guy who died before the last big war and who was a crazy crackpot. He held no power on earth and is probably singlehandedly responsible for his ideals triggering mass death. So obviously the Federation just abandoning the Titans AND AEUG to see who kills one another and the AEUG, a weak organization who somehow thought the words of a mass killer who was in turn the son of a crazy person, would be enough to get the people on their side. So the Titan's wipe them out with their super laser. Oh but it's okay, afterwards, Jamitov decides to clamp down on the gassing and oppression of spacenoids and institute positive change, even though that makes no sense given everything he's done to this point, we need this ending to not be completely depressing." And honestly, that's my biggest problem with the IBO ending. That Rustel implements reforms and otherwise positive changes despite having no reason to do so. Because otherwise, the ending would be too depressing. poo poo yeah, it should be depressing. It should show the iron grip solidify and in fact, there is no hope of change, the system is too big, no one person can make a difference and rebellion is childish and will be crushed. I'd have LOVED that ending, instead what I hear people go "Because Kudelia" what the hell can she do? Assassinate her, you've already used weapons of mass destruction and broken so many laws, you've never before been talking about reforms, what did this sudden positive change come from? It comes from nothing, it comes from "Oh boy people would feel awful if we just downer ending'd this." And it would, but it would be an honest ending.
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Nov 3, 2019 11:41
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The show does in fact give Rustal reasons to implement reforms from the start of season 2. His goal is to ensure the long-term survival of Gjallarhorn as a force for stability, and he points out that the corruption is bad for this because it will eventually either collapse or be overthrown, so his plan is to clean house. He has similar goals to McGillis, but because unlike McGillis and Tekkadan he doesn't have inescapable past trauma, his plans are much more pragmatic and end up working. I agree that at face value it feels sort of like a weird "wait, we killed everyone, make the ending happier" thing, but it's tonally consistent with the message the show was pushing from the end of season 1 with Kudelia, which is that institutional change needs to happen for things to get better, you can't just solve everything by having a bunch of psychopathic murderers shoot it. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 12:10
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Lemon-Lime posted:The show does in fact give Rustal reasons to implement reforms from the start of season 2. His goal is to ensure the long-term survival of Gjallarhorn as a force for stability, and he points out that the corruption is bad for this because it will eventually either collapse or be overthrown, so his plan is to clean house. He has similar goals to McGillis, but because unlike McGillis and Tekkadan he doesn't have inescapable past trauma, his plans are much more pragmatic and end up working. Killing Kudelia was also only doable in season one because at the time she was pretty much a nobody. Gjallarhorn wanted her dead before she could get on the political stage and spread her message of reform. By the time of season 2 she's too well known to bump off without there being nasty ramifications on both Mars and Earth. She has friends in high and low places, and a decent political base. And even in season 1 they had to try real hard to cover it up with operations like the Dort Colonies false-flag riots rather than making a direct assault on her life. Rustal breaking bread with her instead for compromises is a tactical move on his part, and well within his wheelhouse based on what we've seen throughout the second season.
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Nov 3, 2019 12:34
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Lemon-Lime posted:The show does in fact give Rustal reasons to implement reforms from the start of season 2. His goal is to ensure the long-term survival of Gjallarhorn as a force for stability, and he points out that the corruption is bad for this because it will eventually either collapse or be overthrown, so his plan is to clean house. He has similar goals to McGillis, but because unlike McGillis and Tekkadan he doesn't have inescapable past trauma, his plans are much more pragmatic and end up working. So, we just had a different set of psychopathic murderers shoot people and then solve the problem. Alright, Rustal's plan is loving stupid and let's use the Titans as an example again, Jamitov's plan, CANONICALLY, with the Titans was to drive humanity into space, because he was a Zeon Deikun diehard. It's why he was so negative on Bask for being such a brute. But if Zeta had ended with everyone dying and then Jamitov, the leader of the Titans, sending humanity into space and thus accomplishing the goals of the protagonists, you'd call bullshit. Rustal opposes the ideas of reform to Gjallarhorn from the start, he actively works against it, and then at the end reveals "Oh, actually I totally want to reform Gjallarhorn too, and thus I'll do it with no problem." Ignore that he's a known criminal, and that the protagonists exposed his criminal dealings too before the ending of the show. So not only must there be an acceptance of "Oh yeah, he totally reformed things" there's an acceptance "and the public is so stupid they've forgotten how they learned he's a massive criminal". Actually, let's use a more extreme example than the Titans. Gihren Zabi is a mass murderer, he is the one responsible for the colony drops, for the gassing of innocents, Attempting (and eventually succeeding to the) murder of his own father multiple times, and implementing a "Human culling plan" to keep the population "Reasonably sized and only the elites" So take that guy, have him win in the end and then have him go "Actually, now that we've won the war, it's puppies and rainbows time! I will end the corruption of both the Earth Federation government AND the Principality, I'll change us from a dictatorship to a democracy, and everyone will live happy and free and liberated." You'd think Tomino had a stroke, that he was an idiot. "Hey the guy who supported and used the corruption of Gjallarhorn, maybe more than any other character in the show, is actually totally for the reforms even though he's been against them the entire run, and even though everyone knows he's a massive criminal, doesn't matter. Happy ending guys!" He has no reason to listen to Kudelia, he has no reason to not continue the corruption, and reform into a democracy, he is, in fact, more corrupt than any of the people he's getting rid of. Even if he decided to reform Gjallarhorn, he had no reason to reform it in such a way that it's everything the protagonists wanted. In fact let's look at that Kudelia reason again "Institutional change needs to happen for things to get better, you can't just solve everything by having a bunch of psychopathic murders shoot it." Alright... what exactly lead to the change? Was it the exposure of Gjallarhorn's crimes? If that's the case again, that Rustal is able to do this and not have the citizenry going "No, you're a corrupt criminal and need to hang" is laughable. Because apparently it's basically bloodless after Tekkaden. There's no way I can look at this ending as anything more than "I am trying to have my cake, and eat it too. I want a downer ending that's not TOO downer." I am not even mad at "He reformed the system" I'm mad at "He reformed the system perfect for everyone so that the only people mad are just the ones who resent their personal loss." It is utterly biteless. It takes away what could, in my opinion, have been a great ending and makes it a cop-out. Yes, my problem with the ending, is that's not soul-crushing enough. Neddy Seagoon posted:Killing Kudelia was also only doable in season one because at the time she was pretty much a nobody. Gjallarhorn wanted her dead before she could get on the political stage and spread her message of reform. By the time of season 2 she's too well known to bump off without there being nasty ramifications on both Mars and Earth. She has friends in high and low places, and a decent political base. And even in season 1 they had to try real hard to cover it up with operations like the Dort Colonies false-flag riots rather than making a direct assault on her life. Rustal, to justify his own uses of weapons of mass destruction, not only false-flagged but sacrificed his own people. Why not just do the same thing to Kudelia, Have someone pretending to be a Kudelia supporter bomb a city block. He has no reason to capitulate to her, other than show would be really depressing if he didn't. Onmi fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 12:39
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Reminder that ~~*Rustal-sama*~~ knew Iznario Fareed was abusing boys from as far back as when he first saw McGillis but did nothing at all about it, then sought out Iznario's help after the revolution started. Guillotine, guillotine, guillotine EDIT: Also he has the Richard Spencer/Macklemore haircut, so you know he's clearly a massive oval office jackhunter64 fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 12:49
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As I said earlier, I'm feeling more and more comfortable with my position of pretending that IBO only had a single season
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Nov 3, 2019 12:53
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There had just been a minor civil war where a decent chunk of the Seven Stars families had broken away from Gjallarhorn because of a chain of events that can be traced directly back to Gjallarhorn's child brothels. On top of that there were pirate and mob MS armies building up their strength using the AV technology, labor unrest, and a growing nonviolent political opposition. You don't have to be the sharpest knife in the spoon to see trouble ahead. I don't remember Rustal ever being opposed to reforms that left Gjallarhorn on top. He was opposed to McGillis, and by extension Tekkadan and the Turbines. But that's not the same as being opposed to reforms. He supported Julieta despite her low birth, and used Dansleifs. Both of which were established as being against tradition. Rustal was established as the most practical and forward thinking of the Seven Stars before the end.
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Nov 3, 2019 13:01
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Also, calling McGillis's endeavours 'reform' seems like softballing it a bit. The only real ideology he expresses is that the solar system should be governed according to personal martial strength. The Baal is important to him because it is the symbol of the greatest warrior in history, and he claimed it through force of arms. Remember that conversation he has with Mika where he basically goes 'hey, you're incredibly good at killing people, why don't you try your hand at politics?' There are plenty of reasons why even a principled reformer might want to put down that particular rebellion. Don't mistake a sympathetic backstory for sympathetic motives and goals, or assume that just because someone is fighting something bad, they must necessarily be good.
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Nov 3, 2019 13:21
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jackhunter64 posted:Reminder that ~~*Rustal-sama*~~ knew Iznario Fareed was abusing boys from as far back as when he first saw McGillis but did nothing at all about it, then sought out Iznario's help after the revolution started. Guillotine, guillotine, guillotine The scene where Rustal suspected something was up had him start talking to McGillis on seeing him for the first time, pause on seeing signs of abuse, and immediately switch to "...Look, I know I can't intervene directly here, but something's horrible and I want to do what I can to help, allowing for the fact that legally this is none of my business" mode, offering to send someone by with whatever McGillis wanted. Hearing "Bael", admittedly, threw him for a bit of a loop. Years later, he went up to McGillis when they were rivals and said "Hey, great job on plotting Izanio's downfall. That was slick as they come." and when McGillis said "I have no idea what you're talking about.", he went "Fine, whatever, I just wanted to make clear that I do not hold any grudge for that one, and actually kind of approve." Rustal did make use of Izanio later, because pretty much everybody in IBO makes deals with the devil when the need strikes, but it's pretty clear there's no love lost between them. Rustal's the company man who will do whatever it takes to keep Gjallarhorn strong and stable, from assassinating politicians to ending slavery. He cares for his people, and in return they're glad to die for him. Izanio, by contrast, is a political climber who uses, abuses, and discards anyone and everyone for more power, even if it hurts Gjallarhorn overall. Like, Rustal does a lot of lovely things, and allows even more, but from the presentation of the Seven Stars, there wasn't much he could do without starting a war with Izanio. And Rustal's too much of a company man to even consider that kind of thing.
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Nov 3, 2019 13:23
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Rustal is a centrist liberal that will do everything to maintain the status quo and any concessions he appears to be making are just there to further propagate. And there is nothing noble about letting minorities/women/lowborn whatever progress inside an institution thats meant to put a boot on the rest of the populaces faces.
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Nov 3, 2019 13:25
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Onmi posted:Rustal, to justify his own uses of weapons of mass destruction, not only false-flagged but sacrificed his own people. Why not just do the same thing to Kudelia, Have someone pretending to be a Kudelia supporter bomb a city block. He has no reason to capitulate to her, other than show would be really depressing if he didn't. He did so to discredit and eliminate a PMC and mafia faction. That's a whole different thing than making a martyr among the average citizen. You're also not supposed to like that Rustal broke peace with Kudelia, because it's still playing to his advantage; Compromising with him meant Kudelia got some reforms but Rustal's fundamentally headed them off for the forseable future.
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Nov 3, 2019 13:26
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