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"The horn has already been found???"
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Nov 19, 2019 12:32
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Algid posted:How do you actually measure how something "failed artistically"? I mean WoT is way better than Lord of the Rings imo, but apparently some people actually like LotR for reasons I can't fathom, its commercialized products are hugely successful, and it inspired a huge quantity of works that followed after. I wouldn't say it's an artistic failure just because I personally don't like it at all. Yeah I mean I would absolutely be one of the latter people, but "failed artistically" is way too subjective a thing for me to say even if I am tempted to rattle on about why I think one thing is artistically superior to the other. What are the success conditions for art?
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Nov 19, 2019 13:08
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Like, I talked about how I'm unimpressed with Jordan's word choice in my earlier carping about "going insane", and also the way he repeatedly describes the ourobouros as "eating its own tail". Like... "eating"? That's the most evocative and poetic word you could think of for a heraldic symbol? Not "devouring", or "swallowing", or ... anything? But word choice and language are my jam, and I know it's not what everyone goes in for in a fantasy series. I know where to go if that's what I want.
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Nov 19, 2019 13:48
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I never thought about it, but that is kind of funny. Now I'm going to picture a little serpent with a bib holding a fork and knife (somehow) while it prepares for a nice meal of its own tail
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Nov 19, 2019 13:50
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Data Graham posted:Like, I talked about how I'm unimpressed with Jordan's word choice in my earlier carping about "going insane", and also the way he repeatedly describes the ourobouros as "eating its own tail". Like... "eating"? That's the most evocative and poetic word you could think of for a heraldic symbol? Not "devouring", or "swallowing", or ... anything? You can tell there are parts where Jordan was really working on his word choices, and there are other sections where he's just copy/pasting from earlier books so people who jump in at book five won't be confused. I think there's general agreement even among his critics that his combat scenes are excellent, for example. Sab669 posted:I never thought about it, but that is kind of funny. The worm uwu-boros
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Nov 19, 2019 13:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think there's general agreement even among his critics that his combat scenes are excellent, for example. I actually stand that whole, "He counters with Bull Charges The Mountain and follows up with Cherry Blossom and blah blah blah" style of writing. I know he's not the only one who does it, but ugh I do not like it at all.
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Nov 19, 2019 13:58
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Sab669 posted:I actually stand that whole, "He counters with Bull Charges The Mountain and follows up with Cherry Blossom and blah blah blah" style of writing. I know he's not the only one who does it, but ugh I do not like it at all. That kinda goes to what gets my hackles up about Rand, where even if we accept that he's an insane megalomaniac with schizophrenic delusions and all that, he's still presented for the bulk of the series as this superman who picks up ninja swordfighting skills in like two months and can do everything from naval tactics to grain distribution to remaking the social order of multiple kingdoms that put him on the throne (never mind being the Best Channeler Ever) because he's just so awesome. Like a kid's idea of a superhero who has ALL the powers, bigger and better than the powers his little brother is pretending to have. He goes straight from 18-year-old sheepherder who doesn't even wonder about the outside world to World Bestriding Gold Plated Hero in what I can only read as some kind of wish fulfillment for a certain kind of reader for whom the "everyman who saves the world" trope isn't fundamentally about the everyman succeeding despite being unsuited to the task, but rather that it proves that any everyman can be a galactic emperor if he just bootstraps his poo poo up and climbs the drat obstacle course wall. E: but this is off the "artistic merit" topic and just my personal hobby-horse, so pay no mind Data Graham fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 14:12
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Sab669 posted:I actually stand that whole, "He counters with Bull Charges The Mountain and follows up with Cherry Blossom and blah blah blah" style of writing. I know he's not the only one who does it, but ugh I do not like it at all. I meant more the actual battle scenes. Most fantasy writers write combat scenes like something out of one of the lord of the rings movies or a RTS video game -- big camera angles, troop movements, etc. Sanderson's particularly bad about this. Jordan writes his battle scenes in a very gritty, first person, flashforward/flashback disconnected style that's pretty unique among fantasy writers and extremely evocative. Full Metal Jacket vs. Lord of the Rings. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 14:18
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Yea that's basically my biggest complaint with Eye of the World. It's 600 pages of, "Run you defenseless sheep herder!" followed by like 100 pages of said defenseless sheep herder kicking the poo poo out of Ba'alzamon. And like I get it, he used the pool of magic juice, but it just goes from 0 to 100 like nothing. Got'chya. Yea I did like all of the perspective changes in the last book. I can't recall how Sanderson does it, generally speaking, but I should start Oathbringer [again] by the end of this year so I'll try to be more aware of how he writes. I do seem to remember a ton of perspective cuts between all the main characters though. Can't think of any other books of his with large amounts of troops involved.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:10
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EoTW was kinda good in that regard. Except for the forsaken bit at the end, Rand got his poo poo kicked in for most of the book. He had this master sword he couldn’t use and everyone rightfully mocked him for having it. Then the second book he’s Superman. It’s fine but I could have used more of poo poo kicked in.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:19
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I mean being trained by literally the best in the world is something. Also he's a dead swordsman reborn. Eh.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:38
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Yeah I think the implication is that Rand is drawing on LTT's sword skills.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:26
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Does Rand even have a meaningful swordfight after that Seanchan dude in TGH?
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Nov 19, 2019 16:35
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He duels his dad for fun at one point, right?
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Nov 19, 2019 16:38
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Fighting Ishamael in the sky is sort of a swordfight. Also doesn't he fight Belal for a bit before Moiraine backstabs him with balefire? Other than that I think he just chops up the occasional shadowspawn with his fire sword.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:39
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Sab669 posted:I think the one of the most memorable "lol alright then" moments of the series for me was when Sanderson just had Faile knife Masema. Since his threat was always his mass of followers so once Perrin smashed those against the Shaido ... that's the only place his arc could go. I frankly was not expecting to see him at all past the Malden fight in KoD. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 16:40
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Data Graham posted:He duels his dad for fun at one point, right? To learn how to let go. Also to be taught that he's poo poo with only one hand. He fought like five dudes in caemlyn for fun and was clearly doing that repeatedly... Oh his weird fight with fain but that doesn't really count.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:40
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Rand continually wants to change the social order but mostly fails to make significant changes to the actual order of things in places like Tear - he makes things better for commoners but not in a systematic way and it's enforced by him being a walking prophecy. The only big change he succeeds in making is setting up the schools in Cairhien and Andor. He does the best he can and listens to others - and when he stops listening is when things are going seriously wrong. Sanderson Rand is much worse for this. His battle scenes are much more annoying as well, he's a bad habit of making fights feel too...clean, kind of. Maybe that's the wrong word but just from reading them you can tell one of them knows battles on an emotional level and the other one on a dungeons and dragons level.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:53
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Data Graham posted:That kinda goes to what gets my hackles up about Rand, where even if we accept that he's an insane megalomaniac with schizophrenic delusions and all that, he's still presented for the bulk of the series as this superman who picks up ninja swordfighting skills in like two months and can do everything from naval tactics to grain distribution to remaking the social order of multiple kingdoms that put him on the throne (never mind being the Best Channeler Ever) because he's just so awesome. Like a kid's idea of a superhero who has ALL the powers, bigger and better than the powers his little brother is pretending to have. He goes straight from 18-year-old sheepherder who doesn't even wonder about the outside world to World Bestriding Gold Plated Hero in what I can only read as some kind of wish fulfillment for a certain kind of reader for whom the "everyman who saves the world" trope isn't fundamentally about the everyman succeeding despite being unsuited to the task, but rather that it proves that any everyman can be a galactic emperor if he just bootstraps his poo poo up and climbs the drat obstacle course wall. Weird that fate didn't choose someone other than a freak genetic superman to play the most important role in recurring world history and his birth parents weren't some randos. Probably didn't hurt that he may have subconsciously (and later consciously) benefited from the knowledge of a hundreds of years old world class expert on the same.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:03
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I forgot I till I reread the book but I was so totally ready for Rand and Asmodean to become buds. What a let down.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:06
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I'm in chapter 31 of book 14 and going under the wild assumption that the TV show will last this long, this book on TV is gonna be bonkers. I haven't even gotten to the "last battle" chapter that's 9 freakin hours long in audiobook format 
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Nov 19, 2019 19:48
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:Weird that fate didn't choose someone other than a freak genetic superman to play the most important role in recurring world history and his birth parents weren't some randos. Probably didn't hurt that he may have subconsciously (and later consciously) benefited from the knowledge of a hundreds of years old world class expert on the same. I get the criticism of "Rand is just too strong and too good!", I do conceptually understand it. However, that seems to kind of be the point of the character. The chosen hero with all the power and all the skills to remake the world, but he's not omnipotent and he makes stupid mistakes and he's going insane at the same time, and also most everybody hates him for who he is and what he's supposed to do. I dunno, I think there's some layers and nuance to the whole of it.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:03
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That's fair.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:07
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How are u posted:I get the criticism of "Rand is just too strong and too good!", I do conceptually understand it. However, that seems to kind of be the point of the character. The chosen hero with all the power and all the skills to remake the world, but he's not omnipotent and he makes stupid mistakes and he's going insane at the same time, and also most everybody hates him for who he is and what he's supposed to do. I don't get it. I seriously think someone who claims this hasn't read the books. Or thinks flipping through books with his middlefinger super fast is "reading". Oh yeah, Rand is just so strong and insane and slowly dying and some super bad evil is after him, I'd really want to take his place [This sentence was written in Sarcasm]
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Nov 19, 2019 20:11
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I think focusing on Rand's swordsmanship doesn't really deliver the point anyway. It's a skill that's largely useless for him and he's derided by enemies and allies alike for even using that flame sword of his when he has the ability to channel until he stops bothering with it altogether. He ends up the series not even able to sword fight. He's never really portrayed as a masterful politician either, he largely fumbles around with what Moiraine taught him along with using the fear that being the Dragon Reborn and potentially insane inspires. At the scale the series operates at, pushing around a bunch of Cairhien and Tairen nobles doesn't really rate anyway. Even when he's trying to be clever he never really outwits the Forsaken without a bunch of help. Using the one power is the one thing he's really a savant at, and that's given a ton of worldbuilding to support along with it requiring him to be exposed to madness inducing taint to begin with. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 21:51
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Yeah I never minded Rand being overpowered super good at everything guy because it obviously counts for very little past the first four(?) books Like half his victories are ta'averened into and the point is clearly that having all the advantages in the world means very little if you fall prey to pride and madness and self-doubt while distancing yourself from everything and everyone that you're supposed to be caring about in the first place.
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Nov 19, 2019 23:06
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Data Graham posted:That kinda goes to what gets my hackles up about Rand, where even if we accept that he's an insane megalomaniac with schizophrenic delusions and all that, he's still presented for the bulk of the series as this superman who picks up ninja swordfighting skills in like two months and can do everything from naval tactics to grain distribution to remaking the social order of multiple kingdoms that put him on the throne (never mind being the Best Channeler Ever) because he's just so awesome. Like a kid's idea of a superhero who has ALL the powers, bigger and better than the powers his little brother is pretending to have. He goes straight from 18-year-old sheepherder who doesn't even wonder about the outside world to World Bestriding Gold Plated Hero in what I can only read as some kind of wish fulfillment for a certain kind of reader for whom the "everyman who saves the world" trope isn't fundamentally about the everyman succeeding despite being unsuited to the task, but rather that it proves that any everyman can be a galactic emperor if he just bootstraps his poo poo up and climbs the drat obstacle course wall. How are u posted:I get the criticism of "Rand is just too strong and too good!", I do conceptually understand it. However, that seems to kind of be the point of the character. The chosen hero with all the power and all the skills to remake the world, but he's not omnipotent and he makes stupid mistakes and he's going insane at the same time, and also most everybody hates him for who he is and what he's supposed to do. The premise of the series was that a random guy finds out that he's the reborn Messiah, though for marketing reasons it was changed to a kid that the guy found. The superhero protagonist stuff is what the series is about. Ferrosol posted:Now if we're talking about characters whose deletion could improve the series I nominate Gawain, he fucks up everything he ever does and then dies like an idiot screwing over Egwene in the process. Gawain, Galad, and Egwene could all be removed from the series as easily as Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings. And Morgase and Elayne could be easily made background characters like most of the other royals were. I think that the main reason they got so much screen time is because the author wanted to write about his alter ego loving an Arthurian queen. In the original version it was Morgase.
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Nov 19, 2019 23:44
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ChubbyChecker posted:The premise of the series was that a random guy finds out that he's the reborn Messiah, though for marketing reasons it was changed to a kid that the guy found. The superhero protagonist stuff is what the series is about. Mat Cauthon posted:the point is clearly that having all the advantages in the world means very little if you fall prey to pride and madness and self-doubt while distancing yourself from everything and everyone that you're supposed to be caring about in the first place. In short, being an American soldier in Viet Nam was a horrible mistake, and please can we have a do-over.
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Nov 20, 2019 00:08
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ChubbyChecker posted:The premise of the series was that a random guy finds out that he's the reborn Messiah, though for marketing reasons it was changed to a kid that the guy found. The superhero protagonist stuff is what the series is about. This post could have worked if you hadn't tried to throw Egwene into it who is actually more important to the plot than anyone other than Rand and Mat. It's closer to saying that you could remove Sam from LOTR than Bombadil. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 00:11
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Also I'm getting weirdly irritated by people misspelling Gawyn's name unless you're doing it on purpose to annoy me, in which case carry on 
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Nov 20, 2019 00:20
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silvergoose posted:Also I'm getting weirdly irritated by people misspelling Gawyn's name unless you're doing it on purpose to annoy me, in which case carry on Haha, misremembered it.
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Nov 20, 2019 00:27
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Basileus777 posted:This post could have worked if you hadn't tried to throw Egwene into it who is actually more important to the plot than anyone other than Rand and Mat. It's closer to saying that you could remove Sam from LOTR than Bombadil. Tolkien thought Sam to be Lord of the Rings' main character, while Egwene didn't even exist in the original version of the story. And neither did Mat.
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Nov 20, 2019 01:02
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On a reread right now and I forgot how great the sequences with 'dark rand' are. Causing someone to have a near heart attack by just willing it to happen 
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Nov 20, 2019 01:16
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silvergoose posted:Also I'm getting weirdly irritated by people misspelling Gawyn's name unless you're doing it on purpose to annoy me, in which case carry on I always just think of him as Gavin.
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Nov 20, 2019 01:38
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What are her major accomplishments aside from dreaming? which anyone can do.
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Nov 20, 2019 01:54
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:On a reread right now and I forgot how great the sequences with 'dark rand' are. Causing someone to have a near heart attack by just willing it to happen Wait I dont remember this guess I got stuff to look forward to Did him cleansing saidin kick him over the edge? I mean the entire taint flowed through him
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Nov 20, 2019 02:04
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:What are her major accomplishments aside from dreaming? which anyone can do. Reunited the Tower, beat Mesaana, basically started the Tower learning from Windfinders, Wise Ones and the Kin, guillotined a bunch of Black Ajah She was more of a uniter than anything but she did it well
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Nov 20, 2019 02:06
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Was she the one that rediscovered how to make cuendillar or was she just particularly good at it? She also figured out how to counter balefire.
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Nov 20, 2019 02:21
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ChubbyChecker posted:Gawain, Galad, and Egwene could all be removed from the series as easily as Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings. Gawyn, fine, and I guess for Galad you could cut out the Whitecloaks entirely or leave their arc unfinished, but the series would suffer from it IMO. But how the hell do you cut out Egwene? She's extremely central to the White tower plot line and also her dreaming is important several times throughout the series. If you cut her out the series is completely different. e: I should refresh the page before posting
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Nov 20, 2019 02:24
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A lot of the Salidar plotline could be cut but Egwene as a character has a few genuinely neat plot points, and the "Fount of the Power" chapter in book 14 or whatever is one of the series high points. Gawaine, Galad, and Elayne. . . yeaaah. I think they're just another idea that didn't work out.
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Nov 20, 2019 02:29
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