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I've always considered the very earliest books to be their own thing more or less separate from the consistent Discworld laid out from about Guards, Guards onwards. Nothing in them really fits the way things are laid out in the later books, including the patrician of Ankh-Morpork as a decadent tyrant. There are figures like Rincewind and Albert who obviously remain the same dudes throughout but in general it's one of these things where, instead of doing mental gymnastics to shakily fit everything into an in-universe timeline, I much prefer to just acknowledge that Terry Pratchett set out to do different things with his writing back then. Any resulting metaplot inconsistencies don't really need plot explanations, although of course luckily you can always point to that goddamn glass clock.
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Oct 4, 2019 07:40
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Jerry Cotton posted:Wasn't it a different patrician? It was maybe a different Patrician in The Colour of Magic, but I think His Divine Shadow is referring to e.g. Guards! Guards!'s or Jingo's Vetinari vs. Going Postal's Vetinari.
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Oct 4, 2019 07:46
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Jerry Cotton posted:Wasn't it a different patrician? In the very first books I think it's a different enough character to not be Vetinari, but in Sourcery he gets turned into a lizard or something and is taken out like a punk. In Reaper Man he also doesn't seem as all knowing and omnicapable as later on.
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Oct 4, 2019 08:13
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Also many of the Ankh-Morpork books tend to resolve along similar plot lines and characters act in much the same ways every time. Change is introduced, leads to conflict, there is a crisis involving Vetinari who is actually on top of things the entire time. Vimes is crucial in resolving it and a part of Vetinari's machinations, even when it initially appears he's escaped them. Colon and Nobbs are two sides of the everyman's view on events. Carrot, Angua, Cheery, Detritus et al take on roles of a police procedural subplot. And so on. Once you've written two or three instances of that basic plot, I figure you really have to take the way your characters actually act in any further instance to a sort of extreme so it isn't literally the same story again.
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Oct 4, 2019 09:21
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Are you really trying to say things like "change results in conflict" and "the protagonist is instrumental in resolving things" are derivative?
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Oct 5, 2019 06:15
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The_Doctor posted:From this BBC press release, comes this bit of artwork. Sure is, uh, hmm. This looks like it came from an early 2000s adventure game.
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Oct 5, 2019 11:01
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SirSamVimes posted:Are you really trying to say things like "change results in conflict" and "the protagonist is instrumental in resolving things" are derivative? "A technological/social change is establishing itself in Ankh-Morpork, leading to unrest. Lord Vetinari is sidelined and unable to influence the way things proceed. While investigating a crime, Vimes discovers a connection to the change in the background. His integrity leads him to handle things in a way that serves the integration of the change into Ankh-Morpork society. In the end, Vetinari is reinstated, and it's heavily implied that Vetinari still had a degree of control over the situation, and in exerting it, actively relied on Vimes to behave exactly as he did." You tell me which Watch book this is.
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Oct 5, 2019 15:12
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My Lovely Horse posted:More that Watch plots, and later Ankh-Morpork plots, tend to be very similar. Feet of Clay.
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Oct 5, 2019 17:11
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My Lovely Horse posted:More that Watch plots, and later Ankh-Morpork plots, tend to be very similar. Clearly Jingo 
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Oct 6, 2019 00:38
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My Lovely Horse posted:More that Watch plots, and later Ankh-Morpork plots, tend to be very similar. Later versions of The Watch series became kinda boring and predictable. I think feet of clay is the last one that was truly fun. Mostly cause I always liked Detritus. Vimes becoming Superman was boring, and I liked the books where he was a side character better like the truth, monstrous regiment and going postal. It is btw kinda obvious that Moist was going the same way as Vimes and becoming boring that way. Pratchett at least realized when he started following a set pattern and tried to steer away from that path.
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Oct 9, 2019 20:43
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Great longer form article on Terry Pratchett and his involvement with The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion mod creation. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-01-29-the-story-behind-the-oblivion-mod-terry-pratchett-worked-onquote:One of the most important features that was added to Vilja was the lead-the-way function, which Pratchett had specifically requested to help with his Alzheimer's. "By that point Terry was already having serious trouble with his memory," Charles told Eurogamer. "The sort of short-term memory functioning needed to navigate the game world was a particular problem for him."
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Oct 9, 2019 23:50
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New cast members announced! Going to be a few upset people out there. Personally I don't mind the changes. https://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/bbc-announces-watch-tv-cast quote:BBC America has announced the casting of several Ankh-Morpork’s leaders, with Anna Chancellor as Vetinari, James Fleet as the Archchancellor of Unseen University and Ingrid Oliver as Doctor Cruces, head of the Assassins Guild. 
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Nov 19, 2019 16:27
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Oof. If you've come here you know what I'm talking about.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:28
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stevey666 posted:Oof. Ook?
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Nov 19, 2019 16:30
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Man, if they had gotten Jeremy Irons back and told him not to lisp, I would have been over the moon...
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Nov 19, 2019 16:42
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stevey666 posted:Oof. I've come here becasue I saw four new posts in the TP thread. What are we oofing about?
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Nov 19, 2019 17:16
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Sanford posted:I've come here becasue I saw four new posts in the TP thread. What are we oofing about? Probably the random gender shifts of characters. Might work, might not. I’m more concerned about young thin Sybil. Is the plot going to follow the time traveling night watch book?
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Nov 19, 2019 17:30
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hanales posted:Probably the random gender shifts of characters. Oh that. Yeah the whole thing looks awful. That little quote about Dibbler says a lot.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:35
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Hot take: gender-swapping characters has absolutely no bearing on how good/bad the show will be, and I'm not sure whatSanford posted:Oh that. Yeah the whole thing looks awful. That little quote about Dibbler says a lot. this even means. quote:I’m so excited to be part of a world that Sir Terry Pratchett created. The character of Throat was male in the original books so for the team to cast me was extra exciting. I’m really looking forward to seeing how Throat develops and what mischief she can bring. That's like the most innocuous possible "drat I'm psyched to be in this" possible. I just don't see the issue here.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:59
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That quote was off to me as well. Mostly because I don't see the Dibbler character as mischievous.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:04
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I mean he's not a cackling gremlin, but he's definitely a sneaky conniving bastard in the best way. I just can't really muster up a negative response to someone saying they're excited to play a character, I guess.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:07
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Canuckistan posted:That quote was off to me as well. Mostly because I don't see the Dibbler character as mischievous. He literally commits fraud in a daily basis.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:08
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I'm not enthused by them race-flipping Keel but not Vimes, when they're the same loving person. Unless they've only stunt-cast a black actor to kill him off in the first reel, which is worse.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:11
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If it was an ongoing Discworld show, I might have a bit more of an issue with the gender-swaps, but only because gender issues were a pretty well-discussed issue in the novels, and that sort of thing would likely butt heads with the established lore. But this is a one-off story, and "girls can't be wizards or the ruler of the city" is something that can very easily be ignored in context. (Not to mention that outside of AM there's women in leadership positions fairly often).
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Nov 19, 2019 18:13
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Snow Cone Capone posted:If it was an ongoing Discworld show, I might have a bit more of an issue with the gender-swaps, but only because gender issues were a pretty well-discussed issue in the novels, and that sort of thing would likely butt heads with the established lore. But this is a one-off story, and "girls can't be wizards or the ruler of the city" is something that can very easily be ignored in context. (Not to mention that outside of AM there's women in leadership positions fairly often). Oh I thought they were making a series. Is it going to be a made for TV movie like the sky one stuff?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:14
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I don’t mind the gender flipping -- and honestly, if you’re going to have a female Vetinari, Anna Chancellor is a pretty great choice -- but a lot of what we’ve seen about the characters and the general tone makes me think that there’s not going to be a lot of Pratchett in there.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:17
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Jedit posted:I'm not enthused by them race-flipping Keel but not Vimes, when they're the same loving person. Unless they've only stunt-cast a black actor to kill him off in the first reel, which is worse. This, I'll admit, is a bit more concerning, but as far as the "they're the same person" thing, I'm trying to remember, only Coates and Carcer actually knew Keel before he died, right? So that's not a huge thing to deal with, especially since Coates' whole thing is "I know drat well you're not Keel." I'd be bummed out if they killed him off right away like you said, but there's also the possibility he shows up as the Keel side of Vimes' inner monologue. Also I just realized they could cut out Vetinari in modern times almost entirely, in which case Vetinari as a woman, as a trainee Assassin, wouldn't be that out-of-the-ordinary at all.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:17
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hanales posted:Oh I thought they were making a series. Is it going to be a made for TV movie like the sky one stuff? I think it's a miniseries; what I meant specifically was that it's going to be Night Watch, and not just a Discworld show that jumps between different book plots, if that makes sense
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Nov 19, 2019 18:19
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Snow Cone Capone posted:This, I'll admit, is a bit more concerning, but as far as the "they're the same person" thing, I'm trying to remember, only Coates and Carcer actually knew Keel before he died, right? So that's not a huge thing to deal with, especially since Coates' whole thing is "I know drat well you're not Keel." Didn't they swap out Vimes with the body when he went back or am I just making that up. Its been years since I last read it.
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Nov 19, 2019 21:24
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Boxturret posted:Didn't they swap out Vimes with the body when he went back or am I just making that up. Its been years since I last read it. Correct. The history monks do that right at the end.
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Nov 19, 2019 21:29
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hanales posted:He literally commits fraud in a daily basis. I think it comes down to intent. To me, mischief implies the intent to cause petty harm or damage for fun. He's not doing it for fun, he's in it for profit.
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Nov 19, 2019 21:34
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Anna Chancellor is great casting as Vetinari, though I’m not sure how it works with the timeline. They must be changing it quite a lot so old Vetinari is a bigger character.
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Nov 19, 2019 21:38
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I get the impression that the plot will be quite different from the book. The same stuff that works in a book won't necessarily work in a miniseries.
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Nov 19, 2019 22:00
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I feel like in 10-20 years, no matter how they look back on what 2019 TV literary adaptation culture was like, this is the one they're gonna point to as the example.
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Nov 19, 2019 22:13
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Boxturret posted:Didn't they swap out Vimes with the body when he went back or am I just making that up. Its been years since I last read it. Yeah, but IIRC he specifically mentions that with the scar and eyepatch Vimes is a dead (lol) ringer for Keel?
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Nov 19, 2019 22:22
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peanut- posted:Anna Chancellor is great casting as Vetinari, though I’m not sure how it works with the timeline. They must be changing it quite a lot so old Vetinari is a bigger character. My gripe with her is less gender than age. Most of Vetinari's appearances in Night Watch are as a teenage Assassin trainee. I believe present Vetinari only really appears in a couple of dialogue scenes with Vimes? (I definitely remember Vimes getting mad that Vetinari is wearing the lilac sprig).
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Nov 19, 2019 22:24
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Snow Cone Capone posted:My gripe with her is less gender than age. Most of Vetinari's appearances in Night Watch are as a teenage Assassin trainee. I believe present Vetinari only really appears in a couple of dialogue scenes with Vimes? (I definitely remember Vimes getting mad that Vetinari is wearing the lilac sprig). I remember Vetinari doing them a massive solid I the end, after Vimes gets Carcer
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Nov 19, 2019 22:41
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In looking at Dibbler's actress' work on youtube and online, it seems she uses a wheelchair most of the time due to spina bifida. This does not affect her acting ability of course, I just wonder how they'll work it into the character.
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Nov 19, 2019 22:43
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Serperoth posted:I remember Vetinari doing them a massive solid I the end, after Vimes gets Carcer I think you're right, I'm like 99% sure he makes a little aside about how he knows Vimes is/was Keel, which wouldn't have made sense at the beginning of the book.
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Nov 19, 2019 22:53
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Sure, whatever. Even if it does turn out to suck, at least it's going to annoy some people who deserve to be annoyed.
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Nov 19, 2019 23:03
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