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HitTheTargets posted:Kenshin kinda runs up against it. After beating social Darwinist Shishio, the kid sidekick in his gang is like “you beat him so your ideology must be stronger!” and Kenshin is like “no, dummy, that logic was the basis for his ideology. I’m just a better swordsman. Nobody proved anything today.” That is one of my favorite scenes in all of anime and I clipped it not too long ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5zY4SJ9kL0 This exchange always stuck with me ever since I was little. It seems so simple now but really that's mostly because I spend a lot of my time reading actual philosophy these days. Truth is, not enough regular shows ever have a moment like this. It is good that our heroes defeated the villain but the fact they won a fight isn't why they are good. The battle itself proves nothing. Light Yagami of all people invoked this when he said if Kira won he was Justice and if he lost he was a monster. Well he lost but that had zero bearing on how monstrous he was. Too many series act like the righteous prevailing shows something, that the protagonist beating the villain invalidates what the villain fought for. They need moments like this where a younger character, troubled by confusion and guilt over having witnessed how human and even somewhat noble his opponents were, tries to assuage their conscience with this false ideal of victory = good. War is a complicated thing and nothing is more natural than trying to dumb it down. But then an older, wiser character corrects them. There are no easy answers. The people you fought and maybe even killed are still people and it's fine to mourn for them. But never think that your triumph has any bearing on how right you were or how wrong they were. Omnicrom posted:You could maybe argue that, but know that the setting and the circumstances of those characters are different from Amuro, Kira, et. al. Fair points , thanks for the reply.
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Nov 19, 2019 02:38
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ImpAtom posted:To be fair most Gundam factions (including often the 'good guys') haven't met a war crime they don't like. True, but most of them at least try to pretend they have standards. Rustal exemplifies it, but you see it with Zeon and even the Titans, the reluctance to commit war crimes without at least a fig leaf of a defense, or attempts to pretend they didn't happen after. CE doesn't have so much of that. It's more straightforwardly genocidal. Even by Gundam standards it's a horrible place.
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Nov 19, 2019 02:40
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ManSedan posted:So I’ve “watched” Zeta at least twice now and Its bores me to the point of barely paying attention by the end. What the heck was Scirrocos goal? I remember him trying to assassinate the Titans leader like, twice. They just gave him the most powerful battleship they have because...? Late in the series, Jamitov reveals that the Titans were actually a massive false flag operation, designed to cripple and discredit the Federation by dragging it into an unwinnable, hideously expensive war on terror. The idea was that this would trigger a mass exodus to space, and hopefully a general Newtype awakening as humanity became a spaceborne species. Scirocco was his most valuable ally, a superb pilot and engineer and, most importantly, a powerful Newtype whose existence validated his goals. The catch was that Scirocco had his own ambitions - he wanted to hijack Jamitov's plan and put himself (or, to be more precise, a puppet-queen of his choosing) in charge of the new interplanetary empire. Intriguingly, another man from Jupiter, Fonse Kagatie, was born in the year Scirocco died, and eventually set up his own spacenoid empire with a Newtype puppet-queen that came to rule most of the solar system after the Federation's near-total collapse.
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Nov 19, 2019 03:05
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Darth Walrus posted:Intriguingly, another man from Jupiter, Fonse Kagatie, was born in the year Scirocco died, and eventually set up his own spacenoid empire with a Newtype puppet-queen that came to rule most of the solar system after the Federation's near-total collapse. This is just proof that absolutely nothing good can come out of Jupiter.
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Nov 19, 2019 03:10
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Omnicrom posted:You could maybe argue that, but know that the setting and the circumstances of those characters are different from Amuro, Kira, et. al. And starving/freezing the planet by cutting off access to nuclear power, don't forget that. CE is really just Gundam stripped of any subtlety, which is at least some part of why I've grown to dislike it so much. (That and batteries. What a dumb loving idea)
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Nov 19, 2019 03:22
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I think Gundam already is Gundam stripped of any subtlety.
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Nov 19, 2019 03:24
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ManSedan posted:So I’ve “watched” Zeta at least twice now and Its bores me to the point of barely paying attention by the end. What the heck was Scirrocos goal? I remember him trying to assassinate the Titans leader like, twice. They just gave him the most powerful battleship they have because...? You reminded me that I needed to continue my rewatch and not get distracted by things like watching Gundam X or G Gundam. And Kamille loving drives me batshit. Does anyone have a super cut of people beating the poo poo out of Kamille?
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Nov 19, 2019 03:46
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Blaze Dragon posted:This is just proof that absolutely nothing good can come out of Jupiter. I believe this is the central thesis of Crossbone Gundam as well.
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Nov 19, 2019 03:57
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Blaze Dragon posted:This is just proof that absolutely nothing good can come out of Jupiter. It says something when the one Jupiter in Gundam where you might want to live is the one run by the Space Yakuza. Honestly, it looked pretty nice, assuming you aren't caught up in a gang war.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:04
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Warmachine posted:That said, it is very extra that they didn't just... attach the binder to a regular Zaku. They gave the motherfucker a new paint job and ambulance lights. I will always appreciate that while SEED/Destiny always makes the CE look like a hopeless, melodramatic poo poo world to live in when you get down to it, Astray is like "nah, these fuckers in this universe are just insane" with it comes to extra zany poo poo like Ambulance Zakus, junk ships carrying 150meter katanas, or a Photographer Gundam.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:09
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Blaze Dragon posted:This is just proof that absolutely nothing good can come out of Jupiter.  Gump, technically
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Nov 19, 2019 04:10
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Blaze Dragon posted:This is just proof that absolutely nothing good can come out of Jupiter. The True GN Drives? And the ELS seem fine, once we got past that bumpy first contact.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:42
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iospace posted:
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Nov 19, 2019 04:57
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I mean, Mars also seems like a bad choice in Gundam too. Not as bad as Jupiter but still probably a bad ides.
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Nov 19, 2019 06:29
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Blaze Dragon posted:This is just proof that absolutely nothing good can come out of Jupiter. Zone of the Enders. Different franchise, but still.
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Nov 19, 2019 07:53
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MonsieurChoc posted:Zone of the Enders. Jupiter is literally a hell planet whose moons are full of evil space metal in ZoE
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Nov 19, 2019 07:57
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ImpAtom posted:Jupiter is literally a hell planet whose moons are full of evil space metal in ZoE Isn't Metatron from Mars? Huh, well I guess Jupiter is cursed.
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Nov 19, 2019 07:59
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A small hand-painted road sign, floating about 200,000km before Ganymede: Welcome to sleepy JUPITER -ATTEMPT NO LANDING- Twinned with Hellworld D55X and Bruges
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Nov 19, 2019 09:06
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chiasaur11 posted:The guy who relies on it without being intolerable is Loran in Turn A, who's helped a lot by how almost nobody actually knows how to fight. It's also helped both by the fact that the conflict in Turn A is very specifically not a war for a good portion of the show, and instead Loran/Dianna/Kihel etc are trying to prevent things from escalating in to a full blown war while promoting the occasional peace talks and that Loran does in fact miss and kill someone by accident at one point. Which he may not have even realized, because we don't see him react to it. Gym is the one who states that the data says the Turn A's pilot was trying for a non-lethal shot after someone is very definitely killed. NikkolasKing posted:This is an interesting criticism I've never thought of before. I wonder if it can be applied to somebody like Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin or Vash from Trigun. I haven't seen Kenshin to comment on that, but I wouldn't level that criticism at Trigun at the very least, because Trigun takes a lot of time to establish and explore Vash's stance on violence in various ways that SEED never does with Kira. Kira just uses the Freedom to disable because he can, and that's kind of it. Until he doesn't have to, in which case he'll kill. He never makes any conscious or explicit decision to be a pacifist, no-one in the show ever challenges him on it in any meaningful way and he shows no reaction when he does have to switch from non-lethal to lethal. As opposed to Trigun, where Vash is demonstrably torn up when Legato challenges his ideals later in the show and is shown to visibly suffer for keeping to them, both physically and emotionally. tsob fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 10:08
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Vash has been suffering for his ideals a lot longer than facing off with Legato Bluesummers. It's the whole point of showing off the fact he's got a body riddled with nasty scars - He got so good at what he does the hard way.
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Nov 19, 2019 10:39
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was only when Legato appeared that his ideals were challenged or that Vash hadn't had to work for them before that point; just that Legato was the most prominent challenge to those ideals, and his appearance marked a change in the show's focus, narrowing in a lot more on that facet.
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Nov 19, 2019 11:43
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Tulalip Tulips posted:I mean, Mars also seems like a bad choice in Gundam too. Not as bad as Jupiter but still probably a bad ides. 
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Nov 19, 2019 13:23
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Can't be worse than Gunnm Mars.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:34
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Anshu posted:I haven't seen anything SEED, so I can't dispute that, but we paint our hospital units in bright, identifiable red-and-white for that exact reason in the modern day. I believe it's a war crime to fire on marked hospital units.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:42
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Gally in a SRW with Seed would actually own a lot.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:52
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Zedd posted:Blue Cosmos is hilariously evil and goes far out of their way to make casualties to their enemy even if it will end them, even by Gundam standards. Yeah, Blue Cosmos - the faction that basically runs the Earth Alliance circa SEED Destiny - is so bent on genocidal annihilation that their go-to strategy is literally "fire nuclear weapons at civilian colonies", to the point that in Destiny ZAFT deploys a weapon whose sole purpose is to detonate nukes in mid-flight before they can reach their target because they were waiting for Blue Cosmos to try to nuke them again. If anything, painting a hospital in noticeable colors would only make most Blue Cosmos dudes go "hell yeah, that place is full of coordinators who won't be able to run or fight back".
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Nov 20, 2019 04:23
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Kanos posted:Yeah, Blue Cosmos - the faction that basically runs the Earth Alliance circa SEED Destiny - is so bent on genocidal annihilation that their go-to strategy is literally "fire nuclear weapons at civilian colonies", to the point that in Destiny ZAFT deploys a weapon whose sole purpose is to detonate nukes in mid-flight before they can reach their target because they were waiting for Blue Cosmos to try to nuke them again. ZAFT ain't much better considering they deployed GENESIS and shot at least one civilian target with it
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Nov 20, 2019 04:30
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Cello girl died so many times
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Nov 20, 2019 04:34
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drrockso20 posted:ZAFT ain't much better considering they deployed GENESIS and shot at least one civilian target with it Or the N-Jammer barrage on Earth.
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Nov 20, 2019 04:40
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Yeah ZAFT was literally about to wipe out all human life on Earth with one or two shots of GENESIS, they're just as nuts.
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Nov 20, 2019 05:11
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MechaX posted:Yeah ZAFT was literally about to wipe out all human life on Earth with one or two shots of GENESIS, they're just as nuts. To be fair, poo poo really started rolling only after Patrick Zala (an overt Coordinator supremacist) became chairman. Before that, it was far more low key than the Alliance's connection to Blue Cosmos. The chain of aggression absolutely started with Naturals, but poo poo rapidly escalates to mutual genocide.
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Nov 20, 2019 05:56
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And of course at least some of this was engineered by Rau. He's got that Kefka thing going on where I'm not quit sure if this was always his plan or if he just stumbled into being at the right place at the right time. SEED reminded me a lot of Wing insofar as, by the end, both the big factions were plainly evil so our heroes were off being part of the only good faction.
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Nov 20, 2019 06:04
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NikkolasKing posted:And of course at least some of this was engineered by Rau. He's got that Kefka thing going on where I'm not quit sure if this was always his plan or if he just stumbled into being at the right place at the right time. SEED is almost the complete opposite of Wing, in that by the end of Wing, the people in charge both planned to die while waging a war so terrible that humanity would never want to war again. A major thing for both Treize and Zechs is they're disgusted by the fact that war is being turned into a game, by turning it into a proxy via Mobile Dolls, because their point is very important in that it's "Don't wage war for stupid loving reasons, if you're going to kill someone, you better make sure you have a good reason to do it. By removing the cost of war (that is, death), you turn war into a game anyone can do for no reason. Whereas the end of SEED is both sides are going "gently caress YEAH! GENOCIDE!"
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Nov 20, 2019 06:23
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Onmi posted:SEED is almost the complete opposite of Wing, in that by the end of Wing, the people in charge both planned to die while waging a war so terrible that humanity would never want to war again. A major thing for both Treize and Zechs is they're disgusted by the fact that war is being turned into a game, by turning it into a proxy via Mobile Dolls, because their point is very important in that it's "Don't wage war for stupid loving reasons, if you're going to kill someone, you better make sure you have a good reason to do it. By removing the cost of war (that is, death), you turn war into a game anyone can do for no reason. Intent and motive does matter - and I honestly always got the vague feeling Zechs and Treize intended to be stopped. The Colony Drop was j ust to scare everybody a lot. But the actual leader of the White Fang (Quinze?) was surely a genocidal nut. He was all for the original Operation Meteor, I think? I haven't seen EW in a while. And whatever their intentions, genocide would have been the result. That's why the Wing Boys were on their own side. They also wanted to put a stop to war but Treizes's and Zechs' scheme was obviously unacceptable. So I agree it is different in that the motives of the Wing and SEED major factions are different, the tiny hero factions in Wing and SEED are still the same since they defect from the major factions due to those factions going beyond the pale. That was my interpretation anyway. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
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Nov 20, 2019 06:37
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Ah yes, the Bian Zoldark school of leadership.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:11
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It’s like Hank Hill catching Bobby with a cigarette. “You know, son, you won’t think that robot is cool once you’ve blown up a whole carton of them.”
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Nov 21, 2019 01:01
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HitTheTargets posted:It’s like Hank Hill catching Bobby with a cigarette. Hey, worked for Al Izuruha.
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Nov 21, 2019 01:54
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Onmi posted:Whereas the end of SEED is both sides are going "gently caress YEAH! GENOCIDE!" Ehhh kind of? Patrick Zala was wildly pro-genocide on account of his wife's murder at the hands of the Earth Alliance, but there was enough internal dissent about it that he was murdered by his own men for trying to push the genocide button. I don't think ZAFT as a whole in the original SEED was really on board the "literally murder all naturals" train like the EA was on board the "literally murder all coordinators" train.
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Nov 21, 2019 09:57
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Anything I should know about Super Robot Wars V? My only experience with the series was the super grindy one on the GBA that came out in the States years ago.
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Nov 27, 2019 15:22
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Upgrading breaks the game
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Nov 27, 2019 16:32
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