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GimmickMan posted:I hate ringo roadagain and the true man's world but that's because I think the arc presents a romanticized shooter. While jojo usually presents crazy people with ridiculous worldviews as antagonists it usually doesn't show their pasts trying to make them relatable nor makes the protagonists grow by becoming more like the antagonist in question. gently caress ringo roadagain and gently caress the true man's world. Haha oh yeah! I totally forgot about that part because I wasn't interested in his backstory or his philosophy to begin with, and I got a couple panels in and it was somehow a much dumber badguy philosophy than usual, so I skipped until it was back in the fight in present day. In short, 
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Nov 21, 2019 01:06
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i can't believe that the manga with a protagonist who shoots people with his nails would do this
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Nov 21, 2019 01:06
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GimmickMan posted:I hate ringo roadagain and the true man's world but that's because I think the arc presents a romanticized shooter. While jojo usually presents crazy people with ridiculous worldviews as antagonists it usually doesn't show their pasts trying to make them relatable nor makes the protagonists grow by becoming more like the antagonist in question. gently caress ringo roadagain and gently caress the true man's world. Wait what
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Nov 21, 2019 01:12
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i'm just so many steps removed from whatever thought process this is that i can't wrap my head around it
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Nov 21, 2019 01:21
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I think Ringo Roadagain is epic.
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Nov 21, 2019 01:29
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I don't see how this is a weird take at all. Ringo is unique between all the various stand users of the week in that he gets a backstory to make him sympathetic and teaches a main character an important lesson through his philosophy. The guy is presented as this noble and enlightened loner with this grand ideal that's above social norms, when he really is just an rear end in a top hat gunman that wants to die. He talks Gyro into being more like himself and, in the end, gets what he wants when Gyro kills him. That Ringo's words inspire Gyro afterwards is honestly pretty lovely. Like for all of Stroheim's issues at least Joseph never went "Hmmm maybe he has a point". It's not like Araki is intentionally pushing a nutty worldview and the fight itself is cool but that doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:22
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dunno why you think he's portrayed as some noble dude when he literally just kills a bunch of people and gives a speech about how noble he is, actually
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Nov 21, 2019 02:29
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GimmickMan posted:I don't see how this is a weird take at all. Ringo is unique between all the various stand users of the week in that he gets a backstory to make him sympathetic and teaches a main character an important lesson through his philosophy. The guy is presented as this noble and enlightened loner with this grand ideal that's above social norms, when he really is just an rear end in a top hat gunman that wants to die. He talks Gyro into being more like himself and, in the end, gets what he wants when Gyro kills him. That Ringo's words inspire Gyro afterwards is honestly pretty lovely. I get why you'd feel that way, it's just seems a little weird to call a character a romanticized killer in what's supposed to be a Western. And maybe it's just my interpretation but doesn't Ringo's worldview get proven wrong when Gyro acting on his sentimentality ended up saving not only Johnny, but every nation on Earth because Lucy stopped Dio from using the corpse?
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Nov 21, 2019 06:04
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The entirety of part 7 is two guys insane drive to win forcing them to go over and beyond themselves and everyone around them, including a lot of just straight up killing people to the point that a repeated motif for the protagonist is his eyes turning into black fire to signify what the literal texts calls 'a dark determination in his heart' and Ringo Roadagain's entire weight in the plot is to be the guy that radicalizes Gyro to step up to Johnny's level of suicidal drive to reach his goals, which (Johnny's not His) ultimately Ends up getting him killed Ringo isn't presented as any more Noble or Right than any other Jo Jo MotW. His backstory is about as sympathetic as loving Axl RO's. The whole point of the fight is this insane gunman pushing Gyro to be more like him, the weirdo murder hermit who works for the villain and just shoots people for money.
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Nov 21, 2019 06:05
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The whole point of the fight is this insane gunman pushing Gyro to be more like him, the weirdo murder hermit who works for the villain and just shoots people for money. See I can buy this interpretation, it's just when I look at the scene with that lens I'm like, then why does it seem to go so far out of its way to make us sympathize on some level with him and really make us consider his perspective? Why did he have to almost get raped on top of seeing his family murdered? You don't need any of that, especially the first part, to show a weirdo murder hermit shooting others for money who's a bit sociopathic
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Nov 21, 2019 06:33
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araki just likes weird cowboy crap and assigning 'noble' aspirations to individuals even if they're pieces of poo poo
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Nov 21, 2019 06:37
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Johnny Joestar posted:araki just likes weird cowboy crap and assigning 'noble' aspirations to individuals even if they're pieces of poo poo
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Nov 21, 2019 06:38
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it's definitely a weird scenario, but i've always interpreted it as the two of them ultimately rejecting the specific bullshit ringo is peddling by the end of it all. it's like the age-old thing of a villain going 'ohoho we're not so different, you and i' to the protagonist and said protag refusing it in a corny way except this is jojo so nothing is ever clearcut unless it's some inane scientific fact about something in nature which has a 50/50 chance of being utter bullshit anyways. so no one ever says an outright refusal and their ultimate rejection of falling into the gutter entirely mostly comes through their actions.
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Nov 21, 2019 06:43
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By that logic, Araki wants us to think Valentine is right by giving him a tragic backstory to explain why he's the way he is. Showing a character's backstory and motives isn't condoning them. edit: Like if anything, Ringo is there to set up the internal conflict for Gyro, which is resolved by the end of the story BaDandy fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 06:45
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have I mentioned how much I loving love part 7 Dio yet? Because this might be my favorite Dio yet, tied with part 3 DIOJohnny Joestar posted:it's definitely a weird scenario, but i've always interpreted it as the two of them ultimately rejecting the specific bullshit ringo is peddling by the end of it all. it's like the age-old thing of a villain going 'ohoho we're not so different, you and i' to the protagonist and said protag refusing it in a corny way except this is jojo so nothing is ever clearcut unless it's some inane scientific fact about something in nature which has a 50/50 chance of being utter bullshit anyways. so no one ever says an outright refusal and their ultimate rejection of falling into the gutter entirely mostly comes through their actions.
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Nov 21, 2019 06:50
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:have I mentioned how much I loving love part 7 Dio yet? Because this might be my favorite Dio yet, tied with part 3 DIO Same, I love this horrible gremlin man.
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Nov 21, 2019 06:54
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apropos of nothing: 
Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 07:13
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:have I mentioned how much I loving love part 7 Dio yet? Because this might be my favorite Dio yet, tied with part 3 DIO I like Diego because he's a walking example of how Dio would have turned out if he didn't reject his humanity. He has Dio's drive and ambition but lacks his charisma and ability to bend others to his will. No one that isn't currently a dinosaur will ever die for Diego. zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 07:16
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overmind2000 posted:I like Diego because he's a walking example of how Dio would have turned out if he didn't reject his humanity. In that regard I think it's hilarious that he has Dio's drive and ambition but lacks his charisma and ability to bend others to his will. No one that isn't currently a dinosaur will ever die for Diego. yes! I was trying to figure out what exactly it was that intrigued me so much about this one and that's exactly it e: I literally just read the part where he got a "subordinate" too, whose very first action is to attack Diego with his stand. Dude isn't in control of poo poo e2:  e3: ahhhh we're being chased by dinosaurs that will tear you apart by touching you, ahhhh we're buried under mud and surrounded by dinos that are burning us, ahhhey johnny have you heard about the golden rectangle, I drew it in the dirt. pyramids. egypt. greece. mona lisa. also, I'm super in to this version of hamon. The spin owns Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 07:18
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There's one thing I know about Part 6. I'm on the train arc, btw. Well, I'm not certain, but the memes spoil that Gyro dies. I know some people were sad about Ceasar or Avdol dying, but I legit think I might cry if this happens. He's one of the best characters in jojo! Son of Thunderbeast posted:e3: ahhhh we're being chased by dinosaurs that will tear you apart by touching you, ahhhh we're buried under mud and surrounded by dinos that are burning us, ahhhey johnny have you heard about the golden rectangle, I drew it in the dirt. pyramids. egypt. greece. mona lisa.
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Nov 21, 2019 08:32
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:apropos of nothing: No one understands Dragon's Dream.
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Nov 21, 2019 09:06
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Dragon's Dream was probably the worst fight of Part 6 but the stand is loving hilarious. Just a weird talkative rear end in a top hat, love him.
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Nov 21, 2019 09:13
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I don't wanna do a wall of quotes so let's see if I can address stuff without rambling too much. So SBR is a Western. I tend to dislike Westerns. It's a very macho genre with a healthy dose of racism and I usually find those stories distasteful. SBR imitating Westerns in the 21st century is uhhh... Let's say I don't think it's for the best. But yeah this is partly on me, I admit, which is why I call Ringo my personal Stroheim. I understand that I'm tilting at a windmill here, but I just want to point out how problematic the windmill is. Gyro ultimately does prove Ringo wrong later down in the story. Problem is that it's like... Way later. In the immediate followup to the arc Ringo inspires him during the closing act of the arc. My problem is half with Ringo and half with the True Man's World story arc itself. Usually the way Araki writes villains makes it clear they're just prettyboy lunatics. Jojo is not the kind of story where the protagonist spends 10 speech balloons explaining to the big bad why their worldview is wrong, instead they prove it with their actions. This mostly syncs up with what happens during True Man's World with Ringo, with the exception that Gyro proves Ringo temporarily correct by killing him instead of knocking him out and then later is inspired by his words. I wouldn't mind the arc as a whole if it wasn't for both of those things happening and that's what separates him from Axl Ro and Valentine, who are quickly forgotten or are immediately proven to be full of poo poo afterwards. (though it does bear mentioning that Valentine wasn't blatantly shown to be full of poo poo enough to keep a bunch of assholes from blindly agreeing with him and unironically insisting he did nothing wrong) I do like the take shared in the Let's Read SBR thread that Gyro is just reinterpreting Ringo's view and putting his own spin (  ) on it, which is why he's still a pretty decent dude by the end. That makes it easier to digest.
GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 13:06
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Josuke Higashikata posted:No one understands Dragon's Dream. It's just final destination. Literally just final destination.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:15
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What part of Dragon's Dream don't people understand?
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Nov 21, 2019 16:09
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I think when it's come up before people didn't have trouble understanding what Dragon's Dream did, it was more the fight being hard to follow and keep track of what exactly they were doing panel to panel.
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Nov 21, 2019 16:30
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FirstAidKite posted:It's just final destination. Literally just final destination. I thought that was Rolling Stones
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Nov 21, 2019 16:40
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I don't think Ringo is portrayed as Noble but more as "this is what you're going to have to do if you want to win". And that's the state of Gyro and Johnny. They don't want to be just, they want to win. Gyro later comes off of Ringo's ideals anyway. Dragons dream fight was just some yakkety sax poo poo
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Nov 21, 2019 16:55
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I liked dragons dream and didn't have trouble understanding or following it  But i also had the advantage of marathoning all of part 6 without having to wait between chapters, too
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Nov 21, 2019 16:59
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GimmickMan posted:Usually the way Araki writes villains makes it clear they're just prettyboy lunatics. Jojo is not the kind of story where the protagonist spends 10 speech balloons explaining to the big bad why their worldview is wrong, instead they prove it with their actions. This mostly syncs up with what happens during True Man's World with Ringo, with the exception that Gyro proves Ringo temporarily correct by killing him instead of knocking him out and then later is inspired by his words. I wouldn't mind the arc as a whole if it wasn't for both of those things happening and that's what separates him from Axl Ro and Valentine, who are quickly forgotten or are immediately proven to be full of poo poo afterwards. Ringo having a worldview that proves somewhat attractive to Gyro and Johnny (despite its repulsiveness) isn't an endorsement of that worldview but characterization. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 17:01
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Angry_Ed posted:I thought that was Rolling Stones Rolling Stones is just about euthanasia.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:28
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Electric Phantasm posted:What part of Dragon's Dream don't people understand? The 'luck' just seems to be completely arbitary and like an attack in itself rather than an application of a natural law, like Dragon's Dream just says 'uh ... your right knee is really unlucky now, something insanely unlikely will happen to you if he touches your right knee' so it doesn't seem like he's actually doing feng shui, he's just cursing his target to experience constant critical fails with an extremely convoluted fake explanation behind it? And how does detaching his limbs come into it, what's the deal with that?
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Nov 21, 2019 22:16
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Dragon's Dream is the kind of fight that is going to own once it gets animated and will make us all feel really silly we thought it was hard to follow in manga form. Much like the Mystery of King Crimson.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:05
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GimmickMan posted:Much like the Mystery of King Crimson.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:31
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TheLoneStar posted:King Crimson still makes no sense. Doesn't help Araki changed how his powers worked at least once. It's that episode of Futurama where time keeps skipping.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:48
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How many stand powers can we explain just by pointing toward a TV show or movie?
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Nov 22, 2019 01:28
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Electric Phantasm posted:How many stand powers can we explain just by pointing toward a TV show or movie? IIRC I've seen spongebob pics that represented a good amount of jojo stuff TheLoneStar posted:King Crimson still makes no sense. Doesn't help Araki changed how his powers worked at least once. King Crimson makes sense and his powers are consistent. multijoe posted:The 'luck' just seems to be completely arbitary and like an attack in itself rather than an application of a natural law, like Dragon's Dream just says 'uh ... your right knee is really unlucky now, something insanely unlikely will happen to you if he touches your right knee' so it doesn't seem like he's actually doing feng shui, he's just cursing his target to experience constant critical fails with an extremely convoluted fake explanation behind it? And how does detaching his limbs come into it, what's the deal with that? Feng shui itself is kinda arbitrary. Dragon's Dream just points out that certain locations/areas/places will be lucky or unlucky and therefore anything occupying that area will be fated to good or bad luck. It is up to the fighters to take advantage of the information in order to land any good hits or keep safe.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:04
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FirstAidKite posted:King Crimson makes sense and his powers are consistent. Bullshit.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:35
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I can't help but wonder if this scene is an homage to the Jack the Ripper fight in part 1 also this had me going OHHHHHH poo poo
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Nov 22, 2019 06:21
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gold reqiuem makes sense and his powers are consistent
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Nov 22, 2019 06:22
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