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I literally never understand why people don't get a full CNC shop so they don't have to risk even being in the same room as their workpiece.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:46
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JEEVES420 posted:Easily a grand more as you step them up as well. Saw stahppppp His Divine Shadow posted:For debarking I would use something like this Bingo!
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Nov 21, 2019 02:52
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Baronash posted:“A little more” being literally twice the price in the case of the jobsite saw. What's a few hundred bucks versus the claim cost of surgery to reattach a finger or the cost of actual surgery to do so though? I'm looking at one when I have the space to fit one, even if a cheaper model. Especially if I'm having kids sometime down the line, I don't want them sticking their hand in it! Organic Lube User posted:I literally never understand why people don't get a full CNC shop so they don't have to risk even being in the same room as their workpiece. You can build a decent CNC for cheaper than a sawstop tbh but the last thing I'd be doing is leaving it alone with your nice timber!
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Nov 21, 2019 09:44
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McSpergin posted:What's a few hundred bucks versus the claim cost of surgery to reattach a finger or the cost of actual surgery to do so though? I'm looking at one when I have the space to fit one, even if a cheaper model. Especially if I'm having kids sometime down the line, I don't want them sticking their hand in it! Be more careful with your tools? Optionally live somewhere with universal healthcare. How many woodworkers do you know with a missing/reattached finger?
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Nov 21, 2019 11:05
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Jaded Burnout posted:Be more careful with your tools? Optionally live somewhere with universal healthcare. Lol you didn't go to my school I live in Australia so it's somewhat universal. I'm cautious but I've seen it happen to guys who've used something a thousand times the same way and get caught out
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Nov 21, 2019 11:26
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Avoiding bodily contact with the blade is the kind of thing that's doable by being very cognizant of where your body is and what directions you're applying force in; these are things you should be paying attention to with any tool. The thing that scares me about tablesaws is kickback, which a sawstop does nothing to prevent. I feel like sawstops are primarily a thing because table saws are so ubiquitous, so the odds of someone using a table saw while tired / without knowing proper procedure is higher. I can 100% see the value of one in a shared space (used by students, for example) or where your livelihood is at stake, which encourages you to keep working even if you're tired. For my own hobby work? I just do without table saws altogether. It's a pain sometimes but I'm able to make it work.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:11
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Jaded Burnout posted:How many woodworkers do you know with a missing/reattached finger? One, but he lost it in a table saw in the late 60’s. I know more people who have cut themselves with chisels badly. I have a kid and a wife I wouldn’t trust with my table saw. I just only plug it in when I’m going to be using it. I don’t use it often enough to justify a nice sawstop, so I just use it safely and never when I’m tired or distracted. I use pushes for everything that isn’t on a crosscut sled. I’m not sure a sawstop does anything for me when using it safely wouldn’t change regardless of machine. Just use all your tools safely.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:12
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Jaded Burnout posted:Be more careful with your tools? Optionally live somewhere with universal healthcare. I'd be much more in favor of sawstop generally if they would license their technology to other manufacturers or try to make retrofits for existing saws. Their argument that their device is a public necessity sort of falls flat when they won't let anyone else use it. Instead they want to send every table saw in existence to the scrapyard so they can sell very expensive taiwanese saws. Bosch has their own job site saw version now that doesn't harm the blade or require a cartridge change or anything-hopefully we'll see that technology incorporated into cabinet saws. However, if you're getting a new cabinet saw right now anyway, a sawstop is probably a good choice. As TooMuchAbstraction points out too, you just plain don't really need a tablesaw. American woodworking culture is very obsessed with tablesaws, but in Europe the bandsaw is a much safer king, and rips just as well as a tablesaw. I do use my tablesaw for breaking down sheet goods, but 90% of the use it gets is as a cut-off saw or tenoning/dadoing machine-all much safer than ripping and all tasks a router/table will do about as well as the the tablesaw.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:59
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:None, actually! Anecdotal evidence isn't, but my old boss and all his old woodworking friends I've met who probably have 200? years and close to half a million hours on their tools all have 10 complete fingers. That being said, they've all worked more in furniture/millwork than cabinetry and so haven't spent as much time slicing up plywood on a tablesaw as they would have in a cabinet shop. The sawstop technology is great and no doubt saves fingers, but the first rule of any machine is 'keep your fingers well away from and out of the path of the blade' and if you follow that you won't cut your fingers off, sawstop or no. If you do dumb poo poo on any tool or machine you can get hurt-the tablesaw just has a longer list of 'dumb poo poo not to do' than most machines AND is a very popular tool that gets alot of use by people who aren't familiar with its correct safe use. *A massive bandsaw with a HP (and power consumption) to match. Euro table saws are also a completely different machine than American.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:47
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JEEVES420 posted:*A massive bandsaw with a HP (and power consumption) to match. Euro table saws are also a completely different machine than American. I didn’t mean to stir up the old tablesaw vs bandsaw argument, but just meant to say ‘if you’re not comfortable using a table saw, you don’t have too.’ At this point there are pretty good 18-20” import bandsaws (Grizzly etc) that are pretty comparably priced with entry level cabinet saws. You’re definitely right that unfortunately there isn’t a good bandsaw comparison with portable $3-500 contractor table saws. Bandsaws just have to be a little bigger and bulkier and can’t really be made that portable. I would so love to have a job site bandsaw. I’ve never quite understood the obsession with massive resaw capacity and the huge motors needed to do that. Maybe it’s bowl turners? I think my saw can resaw 17”? But I’d be scared to do it. 12” is the widest I’ve done and that was scary enough and just in soft sugar pine. I do wonder why euro table saws are all sliders where America stuck with not sliders. Just cost? Safety regs? Europeans needed more efficiency post war, where the US didn’t? Did Europe keep building solid wood cabinets post-war and we went all in on plywood? Someone right their doctoral thesis in history on this important subject please.
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Nov 21, 2019 19:47
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:I do wonder why euro table saws are all sliders where America stuck with not sliders. Just cost? Safety regs? Europeans needed more efficiency post war, where the US didn’t? Did Europe keep building solid wood cabinets post-war and we went all in on plywood? Someone right their doctoral thesis in history on this important subject please. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the term slider, but this is a typical UK table saw: https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-trade-series-aw10bsb2-saw-bench-230v-501196 Do you mean ones with sliding arms or sliding table add-ons?
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Nov 21, 2019 19:53
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Jaded Burnout posted:Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the term slider, but this is a typical UK table saw: E: this sort of thing is what I mean by euro slider: https://www.altendorf.com/en/f-45.html Usually a more limited rip capacity than US saws but with a big outrigger arm or sliding table to crosscut stuff. Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 20:02
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I bought an excellent Delta table saw, older but still in perfect operation, for $125. Sawstop table saws don't seem to be on the used market. Basically that's my reason, if I had to spend minimum $1000 for a saw much smaller and less stable and capable than the Delta I got, I just wouldn't have bought it. I have both a table saw and a bandsaw and I find that there are jobs I could do on either one, but usually one is clearly going to be the easier tool to use for that job, or do a better cut. Sawstops are very cool but I think one of the things that makes these arguments so common is the casual assertion that there's no price to be put on safety. That's simply incorrect, you can always buy more safety for more money, there is no uppper bound. Everyone has to make a decision about how much money they can afford to spend on safety, and also there's often other tradeoffs to make too. We can certainly admonish people who are using techniques that are dangerous, and there are certainly cases where a tool is more dangerous to use than an equivalently-priced alternative and in those cases, absolutely we can say "just use X it's safer and costs the same." But whenever we say "just spend a thousand dollars more, your fingers are priceless" we're making an economics argument that implies that poor people just shouldn't do our hobby, and that really really sucks. I think the intent is pure, people really just don't want other folks getting hurt and that's very nice, but... yeah, there is a risk/cost analysis to be made, and it's OK for others to choose to live somewhere else on that curve than you do.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:06
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Very quick googling didn't find a thesis paper but did find this article on the difference of the two. Seems a lot of regulations had a play in it. https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/What_You_Dont_Know_About_European_Saws/ And of course this was among the results, since we are talking about the request by SawStop here is the official document (long read). https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/05/12/2017-09098/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws
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Nov 21, 2019 20:07
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I need my fingers for my day job, of loving with a bunch of unsafe tools and machines!
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Nov 21, 2019 20:24
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Getting back to my Miter Gauge rail sticking. I have been watching crosscut sled-making videos and a lot of them mention Parrafin or Pastewax on the hardwood runners. Can I wax my metal Miter Gauge rail? Would that maybe help?
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Nov 21, 2019 20:32
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JEEVES420 posted:Very quick googling didn't find a thesis paper but did find this article on the difference of the two. Seems a lot of regulations had a play in it. This was really useful to read, thanks. I've never even heard of some of this stuff. A sliding table? Now that I know about it I kind of want one. Feenix posted:Getting back to my Miter Gauge rail sticking. I have been watching crosscut sled-making videos and a lot of them mention Parrafin or Pastewax on the hardwood runners. Can I wax my metal Miter Gauge rail? Would that maybe help? You can, and in fact I recommend paste wax for the entire (hopefuly cast iron) table of a table or band saw. Seals the iron and keeps it from rusting, reduces friction, doesn't mess up your wood.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:45
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Leperflesh posted:This was really useful to read, thanks. I've never even heard of some of this stuff. A sliding table? Now that I know about it I kind of want one. It's a Dewalt Job Site saw. I am fairly certain the table is NOT Cast Iron? (But coated with something?) I can look it up. Still, I may wax that poo poo. [ed] Coated Alloy of some kind.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:08
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Leperflesh posted:This was really useful to read, thanks. I've never even heard of some of this stuff. A sliding table? Now that I know about it I kind of want one. If you really want to feel like your saw is inadequate, watch some of this guy’s videos with his (probably $25,000+ new) saw: https://youtu.be/YLs6E5Utkko I’ve been halfway looking at 20yr old used not-Martin, not computerized ones online, but they’re still $5k+ and they take up a whole lot of floor space. But man can they do a lot in a hurry. Feenix posted:It's a Dewalt Job Site saw. I am fairly certain the table is NOT Cast Iron? (But coated with something?)
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Nov 21, 2019 21:26
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Falco posted:Or the Delta 36-725 which pretty much directly competes with the R4512. If you want something smaller, the Dewalt DW745 and DW7480 are great options too. So I somehow had never heard of the 36-725, and now I've completely flip-flopped. My understanding of the issues most folks have with the R4512 are: a) blade alignment issues they've apparently fixed with a redesigned trunion several years ago, b) kinda flimsy fence that requires finagling to lock down square every time, and c) kinda flimsy rails that can bend, especially if you do something like put a router table extension in the wing, which I might want to do. It seems like none of these are a problem with the Delta, and that the fence is basically a Biesemeyer fence. It's also $50 less. edit: I guess the other difference is that it's only got a 2 1/2" dust port, but I'm using a shop vac for DC at the moment, and probably will be for a while. So I guess I'll restate my original question? more falafel please posted:Looking for a table saw for a small workshop, upgrading from a Ryobi mistake purchase. I don't have a huge budget, I'm a dabbler at best so far, and I want it to be mobile. The Delta 36-725 is the right choice, right?
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Nov 21, 2019 21:30
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more falafel please posted:edit: I guess the other difference is that it's only got a 2 1/2" dust port, but I'm using a shop vac for DC at the moment, and probably will be for a while. You can get a plastic adapter for different sized dust port/vacuum tube sizes from Amazon for like ten bucks.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:37
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:
I used masking tape But could be. I will get some Johnsons Paste Wax today. Do up my whole deck. Why not. 
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Nov 21, 2019 21:45
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Leperflesh posted:You can get a plastic adapter for different sized dust port/vacuum tube sizes from Amazon for like ten bucks. Right, I'm not worried about this. It's theoretically a downside if I want full 4" flow to a dedicated DC in the future, but for now and the forseeable future I'll probably be wheeling a shop vac over to whatever tool I'm using, so 2 1/2" (the same as my shop vac) is perfectly fine.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:46
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:In the US, euro table saw usually means a table saw with a sliding table. It is my (perhaps mistaken) impression that most table saws manufactured/used in Europe have a sliding table, but it may just be that we only import the sliders and so the I’ve gotten a skewed representation of what’s actually in common use in Europe. Aye I usually see those referred to specifically as "panel saws". The sliding functions on table saws I see here are usually smaller add-ons or included in higher end models, but not nearly the size of a proper panel saw.
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Nov 21, 2019 22:02
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Hello wood people. I have not done much furniture repair/restoration. I found a pretty cool mid-century Danish stool at the thrift store today. There are some chips in the seat’s veneer. Do you recommend refinishing the top and repairing the chips with some walnut veneer? Is there a way to re-veneer the entire top with one of those trigger clamps and some kind of bowl that approximately matches the contour of the seat? I have clear epoxy and a large-ish sheet of walnut veneer.  
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Nov 21, 2019 23:01
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plasticbugs posted:Hello wood people. I have not done much furniture repair/restoration. I found a pretty cool mid-century Danish stool at the thrift store today. There are some chips in the seat’s veneer. If you want to put a new veneer layer on it, fill the gaps with Durhams Rock Hard Water Putty, sand smooth. Then use a Vacuum pump and cheap vacuum bag to "clamp" the veneer to shape while the glue dries. I have heard mixed results from using a shop vac or vacuum cleaner but you could always give that a try on scrap first. I imagine a longer setting glue would work better with a shop vac as its really about how much of a vacuum you can get in the bag. Another option is a rigid foam press made out of stress relief mats, plywood, and clamps.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:19
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plasticbugs posted:Hello wood people. I have not done much furniture repair/restoration. I found a pretty cool mid-century Danish stool at the thrift store today. There are some chips in the seat’s veneer. I would just patch the veneer losses. If you are going to completely strip and refinish ( I would-the finish looks pretty hosed), do that first. Make patches larger than the damage, lay them on top of the damaged area, and cut/trace around them with a chisel. Cut out the old veneer inside the patch, and then glue and clamp the patch in. You have to make your patches 2 or 3 pieces of veneer thick depending on how thick the old veneer is vs. your veneer. When you make the patches, when you have to cut across the grain, instead of making a straight, square cut, make a long diagonal cut. It will be much less visible than a square cut. This video is pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD6CWSF1VoQ Then you can refinish it however you want. It's a bit hard to tell, but that veneer may also be oak. If it is, you'll need to stain the oak to match the darker walnut. E: Mr. Mambold is probably right. Teak may very well be the right answer. Doesn't quite look like walnut or oak and is danish modern and is a light golden color? Probably teak. Smells kind of like old leather and loks greenish/tannish brown when you sand it? Definitely teak. You can fake it with walnut if you bleach it If that sounds too fussy and you have some artistic talent, you can just cut out around the veneer losses until you reach good veneer and fill with bondo. Sand flush, grain paint to match, refinish. Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 00:40
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plasticbugs posted:Hello wood people. I have not done much furniture repair/restoration. I found a pretty cool mid-century Danish stool at the thrift store today. There are some chips in the seat’s veneer. I really have to wonder at a stool or chair that uses veneer on the seat at all. Ever. I'd venture that that stool was done in a vacuum press, and likely steaming the veneer prior, which makes curved veneering much easier. You stand a good chance to ruin that sheet of walnut. Also, a lot of that Danish modren stuff used teak, which is what that looks like. I'd try finding a small piece and cutting a chip into that gap, frankly.
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Nov 22, 2019 01:07
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Thanks for all the great stool advice. I’m getting a veneer sampler/variety pack with hopefully a better match for the color. I think it is teak on closer examination. I am going to strip it this weekend with some CitriStrip and mineral spirits. After that I think I’ll try some linseed oil to see what the natural wood looks like while I wait for my veneer to come in. Based on the advice here, I am going to patch the two largest spots and will follow up with some pictures. I‘m also going to look into investing in some better wood working tools than the Xacto blade I was going to attempt to cut the veneer with. Thanks again for the outstanding advice!
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Nov 22, 2019 08:13
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In europe (and I am sorta excluding the UK as they have a lot more in common with american way of doing things) my observation is that professionals use saws like these:   Hobbyists use things like these:   Serious hobbyists usually find old saws like these:   Rich hobbyists and pros might also get this:  So to me the market here looks like this: -New hobby saws like the dewalts are basically what's mostly available to hobbyists who don't wanna buy old stuff -Then the market segment usually jumps to bigger professional slider saws. -The inbetween saws that are of the classic design (sometimes with a slider added on) are mostly all older saws that are not made anymore. The market in europe does not seem to exist for the american mid-range saws, the hybrid saws and stuff like Grizzly offers for instance. It does exist in the UK but not so much on the continent. I've sometimes seen people on swedish forums order saws from the UK since they did not want to buy an old machine.
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Nov 22, 2019 08:38
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That seems to jive with what I've seen
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Nov 22, 2019 08:52
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The saw I use at the makerspace is one of those big rear end cabinet makers ones and it owns, it makes v short work of long rips
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Nov 22, 2019 12:00
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I would definitely go for a sliding saw if I had room for it.
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Nov 22, 2019 12:02
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Yo that Johnson's Paste wax sure did the trick! Also what a strong smell! Reminds me of my grandpa's garage!
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Nov 23, 2019 01:20
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Oh nooo I'm down a deep rabbit hole https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBw1UtnshVw
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Nov 23, 2019 06:33
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Harry Potter on Ice posted:Oh nooo I'm down a deep rabbit hole O shiiiiiiii
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Nov 23, 2019 06:44
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wait so either A) you haven't watched a dozen Nick Offerman videos about building strip canoes, or B) you have watched those videos, but somehow it didn't stick until you watched this other one, and in either case of A or B... what the hell, man
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Nov 23, 2019 06:57
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Leperflesh posted:wait so either A its getting deeper ahhh
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Nov 23, 2019 07:14
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I have never watched a Nick Offerman Video. There are a ton of other videos of talented woodworkers, I just don't really have a desire.
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Nov 23, 2019 07:22
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Yea he doesn't seem to do a ton for me. Regardless I'm going to build my own cedar strip canoe or kayak before next summer. If anyone is feeling froggy I reckon we'd have a fun little contest 
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Nov 23, 2019 07:40
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