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strange feelings re Daisy posted:Tito was saved by the bell... The assassin was Yosif Grigulievich, who had made a previous failed attempt to kill Trotsky. sounds like he wasn't in much danger then
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Dec 26, 2019 04:22
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strange feelings re Daisy posted:Tito was saved by the bell thinkin about an early 90s teen sitcom where everyone's of a different tendency
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Dec 26, 2019 06:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:thinkin about an early 90s teen sitcom where everyone's of a different tendency are you in the Philippines? why aren't you scared? I'm sorry if these are lovely questions
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Dec 26, 2019 09:04
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are you talking about the typhoon, the government of the Phillipines, or the long-dead NKVD assassin?
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Dec 26, 2019 09:24
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If Stalin was so good why did everything he build fall apart the literal second he died?
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Dec 26, 2019 09:30
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actually the soviet union kept going thanks to sheer inertia for almost 40 years, namaste
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Dec 26, 2019 09:41
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MizPiz posted:If Stalin was so good why did everything he build fall apart the literal second he died? what
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Dec 26, 2019 09:42
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Btw, most of the fundamental issue just come down to what strategy is best when confronting Western governments. In the case of Trotsky, it probably wasn't a good idea to build creditability by cooperating with the security apparatus of the US government.
Ardennes fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Dec 26, 2019 |
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Dec 26, 2019 11:36
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MizPiz posted:If Stalin was so good why did everything he build fall apart the literal second he died?
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Dec 26, 2019 11:45
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stalin really seemed like someone who set a bunch of landmines and then when the 1970s and 1980s rolled around, people starting tripping them left and right. the socially conservative shift under stalin is another one. now, this trend was probably not unique to the soviet union and was more a trend of... the 1930s. and the great depression. but they sorta self-justified it by saying that socialism had been achieved, so conservatism in social relations were now a good thing, preserving socialist relations as opposed to avant-garde art and sexual experimentation, previously seen as undermining capitalist relations. but the contradiction is that if the patriarchal family is the ideal proletarian unit, then you're going to raise a whole generation of people who are taught to only act in their own self-interest and that of their families. while simultaneously telling them to set aside their immediate interests for the good of this greater project. contradictions like this permeated everything and resulted in the weirdly frozen kind of society that would devour itself, in agonizingly slow fashion, over the following decades
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Dec 26, 2019 11:54
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i think he contradicted his own beliefs. like if capitalism is just going to emerge from feudalism no matter what because that's what science says then once you have the kulaks emerge then the project of building socialism is going to be threatened, so he opted to liquidate them and intervene directly against a basic historical law. and then there were the purges of the party bureaucracy which seemed like an insane overreaction for related reasons and fear of this bureaucracy going down the revisionist path. but if those people immediately took power the moment he kicked the bucket then it didn't seem like trying to put his finger on the (execution) button was very effective Most of what occurred in Stalinism was reactive not a result of a planned ideological construction. In 1929, most Soviet trade was agricultural products with some oil-based exports, and the Great Depression was catastrophic for Soviet trade. Collectivization, especially rushed collectivization was a way for the state to quickly reduce agricultural costs by basing mandating low prices to the peasantry so they could not only buy Western machinery but keeping paying off their debt to Western banks. Kulaks were liquidated because they simply got in the way. In addition, much of the Purge itself was unplanned and resulted from the Central Comittee looking for scapegoats due to the fact that the Second Five Year plan wasn't working (in part for aformentioned reasons) and it quickly spiraled out of control from there. Also, Krushchev obviously did dismantle Stalinism to a degree...and it resulted in the Sino-Soviet split. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:stalin really seemed like someone who set a bunch of landmines and then when the 1970s and 1980s rolled around, people starting tripping them left and right. This is the result of the fact that much of the post-revolutionary reforms were generally not that popular with much of the general population which was honestly very conservative, and it was a way to keep the public happy after the Soviet Union was in an economic crunch. This is also why the Russian Orthodox Church was brought back during the Great Patriotic War. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Dec 26, 2019 |
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Dec 26, 2019 11:55
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i say swears online posted:are you in the Philippines? why aren't you scared? I'm sorry if these are lovely questions wtf is going on with this post I don't get it
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Dec 26, 2019 11:57
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Hey yall folks. Just got back from the family christmas party. Spent most of it talking to all the cousins who still speak to me about why trotsky was the gbs of bolsheviks while everyone else is still mad at me that i brought a $5 sheetz gift card to the yankee swap. Well how the hell is it my fault that the only sheetz in a 50 mile radius got closed by an outbreak of legionnaires.
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Dec 26, 2019 15:14
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Also, i guess legionnaires is technically not the same thing as "fail aids" but that doesnt give uncle Steve the right to yell in my face. Just because grandpa died of the real aids, which to be honest seems pretty freaking fail to me!
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Dec 26, 2019 15:15
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Dec 26, 2019 15:28
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for some reason a bunch of nerds were posting on Christmas instead of organizing. Smdh
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Dec 26, 2019 15:49
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posting on Christmas? must be those judeo-bolsheviks
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Dec 26, 2019 16:01
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http://imgbox.com/5RlGeF50 couldn’t figure out a mobile imgur upload, but my girlfriend made me a thread appropriate Christmas gift it’s Lenin, Rosa, Bookchin, Ho Chi Minh, Bookchin, Ocalan Frog Act fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Dec 26, 2019 |
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Dec 26, 2019 16:09
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Normal.
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Dec 26, 2019 16:49
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Please respect God
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Dec 26, 2019 16:52
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strange feelings re Daisy posted:I'm not a Trot but I'll point out that Stalin also gleefully sabotaged just about every communist leader that displeased him even when doing so greatly damaged the global communist movement. Tito lead the loving Partisans and Stalin tried to assassinate him anyway because he wouldn't accept Soviet hegemony. Tito was saved by the bell by when Stalin died in 1953 and the assassin was recalled. The assassin was Yosif Grigulievich, who had made a previous failed attempt to kill Trotsky. "socialism in one country" was basically stalin demanding that the international communist movement sacrifice itself in any way he wanted to help the ussr. it's what hosed over republican spain
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Dec 26, 2019 18:28
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or....well, never mind
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Dec 26, 2019 18:40
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organizing what
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Dec 26, 2019 18:51
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alright so who can we kill
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Dec 26, 2019 19:25
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Enjoy posted:"socialism in one country" was basically stalin demanding that the international communist movement sacrifice itself in any way he wanted to help the ussr. it's what hosed over republican spain not just in spain but the rise of fascism throughout europe was in large part due to the theory of social fascism. like imagine taking the position today that the british labour party and something like the DUP were no different. its completely absurd, and yet
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Dec 26, 2019 19:31
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Solid Poopsnake posted:alright so who can we kill you can use reasonable force to prevent a crime or in self-defence or you can kill anyone you want but you have to go to prison, so pick your target carefully
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Dec 26, 2019 19:44
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Enjoy posted:"socialism in one country" was basically stalin demanding that the international communist movement sacrifice itself in any way he wanted to help the ussr. it's what hosed over republican spain Spain was hosed and every Republican faction made some critical mistakes but the Republic was frankly always going to lose that war, that's what happens when one side has all the professional soldiers and most of the guns and is backed by both an ascendant fascist empire and the full might of international capital, and the other side has mostly-unarmed bands of civilians and elderly reservists and is backed by Mexico, the pre-WW2 Soviet Union, and some random smugglers. The USSR actually sent a significant amount of aid to Spain (basically all of the tanks and airplanes the Republic was using came from there, with the exception of a few airplanes illegally purchased by the Mexicans and smuggled in). the vast majority of it (possibly even as high as 2/3 of the stuff sent) never even reached the country, because the only realistic options for shipping it were either sailing it directly past Nazi Germany or directly past Italy, two countries who were actively aiding the other side of the war and were not keen on letting weapons for the other side pass through their territorial waters. A shitload of Soviet war materiel got seized on its way to the Republic. What did get through was nowhere near enough to address the vast discrepancy in arms and equipment, which is really hard to overstate. Even after the May Days the Republic had no shortage of manpower (the height of the Republic's military strength actually came after POUM was purged), but it doesn't matter how many people you have if you can't at a bare minimum put rifles in their hands. By war's end there were entire brigades of the Republic's army who were still technically extant and had an intact organizational structure, but it didn't matter because they were completely unarmed. The war didn't last long enough for them to develop a proper domestic arms industry (and the defeat in the Northern campaign quickly denied them access to the raw materials required to run one anyway), which means that victory was ultimately going to be determined primarily by who could import the most supplies - and one side was supported by industrial powerhouses who could import basically at will, while the other side was supported by individual donors and a pair of developing countries who had to sneak their donations past an active naval blockade. the Soviet aid that did get through formed the bulk of the Republic's supply of armaments, which when you consider how little of that aid even arrived should just further drive home how truly dire the supply situation was. A lot of the stuff that didn't come from the USSR was desperately obsolete poo poo that barely worked (some of the Mausers were 1870s-vintage), but the alternative was usually 'nothing', so it got shoved into the hands of the barely-trained civilian militias they were sending to the front anyway.
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Dec 26, 2019 19:49
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apropos to nothing posted:not just in spain but the rise of fascism throughout europe was in large part due to the theory of social fascism. like imagine taking the position today that the british labour party and something like the DUP were no different. its completely absurd, and yet social fascism is real, most western social democratic parties concern themselves only with redistributing the pile of loot stolen from the global south more equitably to poor people domestically
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Dec 26, 2019 19:57
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Mister Bates posted:Spain was hosed and every Republican faction made some critical mistakes but the Republic was frankly always going to lose that war, that's what happens when one side has all the professional soldiers and most of the guns and is backed by both an ascendant fascist empire and the full might of international capital, and the other side has mostly-unarmed bands of civilians and elderly reservists and is backed by Mexico, the pre-WW2 Soviet Union, and some random smugglers. uhhh nuh uh it was obviously Stalin's personal refusal to press the "Make Spain Communist" button sitting on his desk in the Kremlin because then there would be less communism to go around for Russia *shits self* *rolls around in own poo poo*
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Dec 26, 2019 20:13
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starting to think hoi4 might be bad for teaching people the history of socialism
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Dec 26, 2019 20:33
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:social fascism is real, most western social democratic parties concern themselves only with redistributing the pile of loot stolen from the global south more equitably to poor people domestically And how does socialism in one country fix this??
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Dec 26, 2019 20:38
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:social fascism is real, most western social democratic parties concern themselves only with redistributing the pile of loot stolen from the global south more equitably to poor people domestically so you see no difference between syriza and golden dawn?
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Dec 26, 2019 20:53
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Stairmaster posted:starting to think hoi4 might be bad for teaching people the history of socialism which is weird since it goes out of its way to paint Stalin in a good light
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Dec 26, 2019 21:07
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uhhhh lets make the show trials be the correct choice for Stalin. that’s the ticket!
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Dec 26, 2019 21:08
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Reading about the Spanish Civil War in detail is kind of miserable because you can feel the creeping dread of inevitability from pretty much day one if you look at the numbers. like, the fascists started the war on day one with a majority of the professional army, a majority of the police, a huge majority of the soldiers who had actual combat experience, an overwhelming majority of the trained officers and generals, a majority of the artillery, machine guns, tanks, armored cars, and artillery, a majority of the fuel reserves, the list goes on and on and on - and the discrepancy actually got worse as time went on instead of better. the triumph of the left in the Spanish Civil War (and their international supporters, including the Soviet Union, who, again, supplied the majority of the guns they used) is that they managed to prolong the war as long as they did; on paper they should have crumbled almost immediately. there's all kinds of cool pictures people share of the 'tiznaos', the makeshift armored cars the anarchists and communists made out of civilian vehicles in an attempt to address the vehicle shortage, and everyone is impressed at the skill and ingenuity of these people working together to build a war machine out of nothing - but they never seem to stop and think about how bad the situation has to get before that kind of ingenuity becomes necessary. when you're desperately welding sheets of scrap metal to Uncle Miguel's pickup truck like it's fuckin Mad Max in an attempt to give your side at least some armored vehicles to counter the other side's Panzers it's a sign that the war is maybe not going all that well - and that was during the early days well before the internecine conflict that supposedly 'lost the war' for the Republic. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Dec 26, 2019 |
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Dec 26, 2019 21:31
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apropos to nothing posted:so you see no difference between syriza and golden dawn? Greece can barely be considered a global north country, not a good example. A better one would be the current "social democratic" danish government that is evicting immigrants from their public housing to turn over for private development
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Dec 26, 2019 21:38
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Greece can barely be considered a global north country, not a good example. podemos and vox then
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Dec 26, 2019 21:51
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social fascism is bad not because social democrats are good. its bad because the social democratic parties are where for the past 100 years or so workers have moved to. in a battle between social demcorats and fascists, yes you unite with the social democrats to defeat the fascists. its appropriate that theres a lot of spanish civil war chat here because social fascism is precisely what led the comintern forces in the spanish civil war to attack the POUM and CNT because they were "fascists"
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Dec 26, 2019 21:55
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most of the posters on SA are in the US but even those of you not in the US posting here: would you vote for sanders in 2020 against trump or a third party? if youd choose sanders then congrats, youre supporting not even a social democrat against a far right populist not even a fascist. if you follow social fascism through then sanders and trump are both enemies to the communists
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Dec 26, 2019 21:59
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Didn't the Spanish Civil War happen during the later period when the Comintern advocated popular fronts?
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Dec 26, 2019 22:04
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