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also there's the lack of any kind of tension because u7 was always in the lead and the biggest threat (jiren) very rarely participated and, on the rare occasion that he did, chose not to ring anyone out
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Dec 30, 2019 01:44
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Trunks might do that, Gohan would think about it but lean against is because it didn't seem fair. Everyone else would tell you "no why would I NOT fight him?" Trunks would attempt it, somehow fail, and end up either putting himself in near ring-out or making the enemy even stronger. He's ruthless but he is not intelligent and most importantly is world-shatteringly unlucky. Gohan isn't the kind that'd care about fair in a life-threatening fight. He's also even more stupid in battle so he'd never think of it. 18 would 100% go for the sure ring-out. Krillin may but also would mess it up somehow. 17 and Piccolo would if other options wouldn't work. Roshi not only would but did with his own version in the Mafuba, rules-breaking be damned. Freeza...just probably wouldn't even bother with it. The only punch-or-die in the team were the two Saiyans (and arguably Tenshinhan) and sadly, the broken move was in the hands of one of them. The other skipped the chance to learn it but at least may get something cool too. Manatee Cannon posted:I think them not acknowledging it is bad writing Dragon Ball is built on characters not acknowledging obvious things that would make their lives way easier. That has nothing to do with the ToP or even Super, it's a thing as far back as post-Vegeta where absolutely no one tries to learn the Kaio-ken despite having no reason not to do it. Hell, Super is smarter about it, at least it bothered to poke fun on the fact that no one had their powers unleashed by Old Kai in spite of, again, being something anyone could do and being a ridiculously effective move (were it not wasted on Gohan...). I can't call it bad writing in the ToP if I don't call it bad writing in the whole franchise, and if anything, this is a far more minor situation than the ones I described above. Points to the Cell Saga though, where Bulma actually pointed out how to instantly end the arc before it even began (wish to know where Dr. Gero's lab is, destroy it before the Androids are activated in three years)...only for her to get immediately shot down by the punchmen who wanted their fight, lives be damned. Krillin was the only one that gave a good excuse to not do it, because otherwise they'd just get killed by a bored Vegeta anyways and it was a good moment to have him turn good like Piccolo did with the Saiyans, a bet that, may I point out, succeeded beyond his wildest dreams. ...I won't negate the rest of the post though. The ToP really did have some really bad moments but also really strong ones so I can't hate it. That said, I'd say that most characters would have to be uncompelling since only a few would be major anyways, and even there the two Namekians, Toppo, Dr. Rota and Catopesla are all memorable for good reasons, while Anilaza at least had a strong fight and Ribrianne...is memorable, no doubt.
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Dec 30, 2019 02:01
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Manatee Cannon posted:also there's the lack of any kind of tension because u7 was always in the lead and the biggest threat (jiren) very rarely participated and, on the rare occasion that he did, chose not to ring anyone out U7 being in the lead for most of it makes sense when you remember that it was gokus idea and most of the universes were just told to raise a team and compete to survive
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Dec 30, 2019 02:37
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Also most of the universes weren't gently caress off difficult hellscapes like U7. There's a reason it was almost the lowest on the totem pole.
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Dec 30, 2019 02:40
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Manatee Cannon posted:I think them not acknowledging it is bad writing It's not. Them not stopping to throw in a line going "Well why don't you do X" for every possible smark's idea of what they'd do is actually a very good choice.
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Dec 30, 2019 02:55
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only parts of ToP that I unconditionally pass on are: boring as gently caress "sniper" episode and how ridiculously dirty they did Piccolo. I like Jiren but I liked Toppo more and him turning into a god of destruction mid-tournament was loving rad
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Dec 30, 2019 04:23
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Tin Can Hit Man posted:Jiren's power is to be stubborn beyond logic and reason. I mean that's pretty much canon and why he survived a backstory that's more like Future Trunks or nightmare timeline Gohan than anything else. And Goku preferring a big flashy fight with battles of will, wits and technique is probably ideal give Zeno made several judgement calls based on 'Because it's cool', like allowing the Mafuba even though it technically allows outside implements. (and the various cyborg competitors are definitely a gray area, especially since Beerus says he's going to pretend he didn't hear the backstories of 17 and 18) The ToP was a big crazy mess but I liked that, especially with teams from different universes bringing different styles and genre conventions along with them- the idea seems to be to cram as much variety of opponents and types of fights into one arc as they could, and I gotta respect that. The fact that people are still actively debating hypotheticals and armchair quarterbacking is probably all part of the fun.
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Dec 30, 2019 04:49
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A major problem with Instant Transmission is that it really should be the solution to basically every problem. You have to assume Goku would rather have a good fight or there's no good reason for him, say, bothering to fight Broly (original or new) at all or why he'd have to surf a Kamehameha instead of just warp-kamehaming behind Kefla for an instant win. Edit: Like theretically half the ToP would just be Goku warp-Kamehamehaing people from behind and that would get super boring.
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Dec 30, 2019 05:04
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Burkion posted:Also most of the universes weren't gently caress off difficult hellscapes like U7. U9 seemed pretty tough and hellscapy. They just all ganged up on U7 at once and lost early on.
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Dec 30, 2019 05:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:U9 seemed pretty tough and hellscapy. They just all ganged up on U7 at once and lost early on. U9's issue seems to be they're TOO much of a hellscape, there's not enough peace and safety for anyone to develop to their full potential. Kind of the thing with the Saiyans is it turns out they achieve their best strength in a peaceful environment and occasional challenges worthy to flex their muscles.
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Dec 30, 2019 06:49
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Ghost Leviathan posted:U9's issue seems to be they're TOO much of a hellscape, there's not enough peace and safety for anyone to develop to their full potential. Kind of the thing with the Saiyans is it turns out they achieve their best strength in a peaceful environment and occasional challenges worthy to flex their muscles. I liked that group shot of the U9 crew after 17 revives everyone.  Only Rabbit girl is actually happy to still exist in the most poo poo hole universe.
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Dec 30, 2019 07:35
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I keep forgetting that's the furry universe
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Dec 30, 2019 07:42
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's not. Them not stopping to throw in a line going "Well why don't you do X" for every possible smark's idea of what they'd do is actually a very good choice.
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Dec 30, 2019 08:12
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actual bad writing in the sense of "you wrote this scene and it totally whiffs" is vegeta beat-for-beat doing the buu sacrifice explosion and totally living through it and then continuing to fight because he can just survive exploding himself now I guess you go out of your way to call back to a classic moment in the franchise and then just do it worse in every possible way because ???
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Dec 30, 2019 08:25
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Blockhouse posted:actual bad writing in the sense of "you wrote this scene and it totally whiffs" is vegeta beat-for-beat doing the buu sacrifice explosion and totally living through it and then continuing to fight because he can just survive exploding himself now I guess To be fair, Digimon set that precedent already Mind it killed Wormmon but not the guy using the attack
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Dec 30, 2019 08:27
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Blockhouse posted:actual bad writing in the sense of "you wrote this scene and it totally whiffs" is vegeta beat-for-beat doing the buu sacrifice explosion and totally living through it and then continuing to fight because he can just survive exploding himself now I guess TBH that's pretty standard for Dragonball. Any technique with a serious drawback ends up losing that drawback if it gets used again. Tien just basically did the Mafuba but didn't die because gently caress you, the Special Beam Cannon's charge time is 'however long the plot needs', Kaioken went from wrecking Goku's body to something he uses regularly, etc, etc.
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Dec 30, 2019 08:53
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Spirit Bomb still takes forever to actually do, of course.
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Dec 30, 2019 08:55
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The Final Explosion would have been fine if Vegeta was immediately spent afterwards, rather than fighting at full power for another episode before the plot acknowledged he was done
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Dec 30, 2019 09:25
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Pureauthor posted:Spirit Bomb still takes forever to actually do, of course. And always fails. I think King Kai wasn't a very good teacher.
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Dec 30, 2019 09:57
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Darth TNT posted:And always fails. KaioKen did God's work for the longest. Would KaioKen X 20 have defeated great ape Vegeta?
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Dec 30, 2019 10:18
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Burkion posted:KaioKen did God's work for the longest. Unlikely. Goku was sitting at 'over 8000', but somewhere between 8-9,000 is usually what gets thrown around in databooks and makes the most sense. Kaio-ken boosts him to ~12,000ish and Vegeta beats on him apart from a few surprise hits. x2 puts him 16,000ish and he comments that he can't keep up with Vegeta. x3, however, has him outstrip Vegeta pretty handedly, with Bulma's scouter blowing up at 21,000. Given all that, a x20 kaioken would have put him around 160,000, which is still weaker than the great ape. Also, he probably would have exploded.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:18
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Caros posted:Unlikely. Goku was sitting at 'over 8000', but somewhere between 8-9,000 is usually what gets thrown around in databooks and makes the most sense. Kaio-ken boosts him to ~12,000ish and Vegeta beats on him apart from a few surprise hits. x2 puts him 16,000ish and he comments that he can't keep up with Vegeta. x3, however, has him outstrip Vegeta pretty handedly, with Bulma's scouter blowing up at 21,000. The Fake Moon Ball lowered Vegeta's power by a bit, so the gap isn't that wide.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:49
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If Goku could hit Kaioken x10 he would've probably gunned for the tail and either blew it off or put Vegeta into a terminal tail knot.
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Dec 30, 2019 12:08
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Honestly using x20 against Vegeta would've just killed Goku. Even x3 was more than he should've done, x4 left him so badly hurt internally that a small congratulatory slap from Yajirobe was extremely painful. Even Goku himself pointed out that x5 afterwards would've done far more bad than good, x20 would be insta-death. Hell it took until very late Super for Goku to actually pull a x20 without consequences. With Blue, sure, but that number in Z was used once and it was something Goku knew fully well he should not do but also he was out of options. It also, of course, did not work, but that's another issue entirely. Let's all forget Goku once pushed that thing to x100. Lord Slug was a very interesting movie.
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Dec 30, 2019 13:20
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I realize the Japanese VA passed away but I miss King Kai and legitimately wish he'd show up again just to be like "Goku's been quiet lately, better check in and see what he's up t- OH WHAT THE gently caress, why can't he go 5 minutes without endangering his entire universe?"
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Dec 30, 2019 14:51
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He showed up when everyone was trying to get a Shenron wish, didn’t he have a new VA then?
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Dec 30, 2019 15:04
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Rudoku posted:The Fake Moon Ball lowered Vegeta's power by a bit, so the gap isn't that wide. True, I just assumed the kaio ken damage evened out fairly to Vegeta blowing some energy on the fake moon and getting sent into high orbit on the back of a kamehameha.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:44
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Caros posted:True, I just assumed the kaio ken damage evened out fairly to Vegeta blowing some energy on the fake moon and getting sent into high orbit on the back of a kamehameha. Be a good DBZ abridged edit to have him try to kaioken x 10 and just pop like a grape during the Vegeta fight.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:48
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ElBrak posted:Be a good DBZ abridged edit to have him try to kaioken x 10 and just pop like a grape during the Vegeta fight. Abridged Goku cant count that high
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Dec 30, 2019 15:50
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Darth TNT posted:And always fails. To be fair the spirit bomb failing led to Goku getting Ultra Instinct.
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Dec 30, 2019 16:09
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New Leaf posted:I realize the Japanese VA passed away but I miss King Kai and legitimately wish he'd show up again just to be like "Goku's been quiet lately, better check in and see what he's up t- OH WHAT THE gently caress, why can't he go 5 minutes without endangering his entire universe?" I get death means nothing in Dragon Ball but Joji Yanami sure seems pretty alive for a dead guy. He took medical leave, he didn't die. And he was immediately replaced by the also-very-much-alive Naoki Tatsuya so it's not that that's stopping King Kai's appearances.
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Dec 30, 2019 16:44
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Blaze Dragon posted:I get death means nothing in Dragon Ball but Joji Yanami sure seems pretty alive for a dead guy. Oh my bad, I thought he passed. It was Bulma that passed right?
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Dec 30, 2019 17:15
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New Leaf posted:Oh my bad, I thought he passed. It was Bulma that passed right? Also Master Roshi and Mr Satan's original VAs. Also Mr Satan's replacement VA also died a couple years ago as well.
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Dec 30, 2019 17:44
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The Final Explosion one bothered me more than the rest of them since it never seemed like it was supposed to be a technique Vegeta was using, he was literally just expending all his energy in an explosion. This was a lot more jarring than say, Final Flash getting used again.
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Dec 30, 2019 19:27
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Momomo posted:The Final Explosion one bothered me more than the rest of them since it never seemed like it was supposed to be a technique Vegeta was using, he was literally just expending all his energy in an explosion. This was a lot more jarring than say, Final Flash getting used again. I mean the Tribeam literally killed Tien to use once and then he tosses it out a few dozen times in a row before just passing out.
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Dec 30, 2019 20:41
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Momomo posted:The Final Explosion one bothered me more than the rest of them since it never seemed like it was supposed to be a technique Vegeta was using, he was literally just expending all his energy in an explosion. This was a lot more jarring than say, Final Flash getting used again. Yeah it's so unfocused and wasteful.. It's like a lantern vs a laser beam. I can see the merits of both, but in this case, he used the wrong tool for the job.
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Dec 31, 2019 15:20
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Vegeta should have come up with a Bigger Bang Attack.
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Dec 31, 2019 16:04
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bobjr posted:Vegeta should have come up with a Bigger Bang Attack. That's his ultimate in the Budokai series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQGqlyNFADY&t=252s
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Dec 31, 2019 16:52
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Blaze Dragon posted:Honestly using x20 against Vegeta would've just killed Goku. Even x3 was more than he should've done, x4 left him so badly hurt internally that a small congratulatory slap from Yajirobe was extremely painful. Even Goku himself pointed out that x5 afterwards would've done far more bad than good, x20 would be insta-death. They should just increase production of Senzu beans and wear a beer hat filled with Senzu bean juice that goes through a tube into their mouth. Then he can do as much Kaiokens as he wants while healing the damage with the bean juice.
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Dec 31, 2019 20:11
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was it in the ToP where vegeta re-did the majin vegeta explosion? i have zero memory of that happening
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Dec 31, 2019 20:47
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