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Conquest? What tyrant first dreamed of conquest and clad violent oppression in terms of virtue? Why does the imposition of one will over another draw men like no other sin? For more than two hundred years, the Emperor has demanded that the galaxy align itself to his principles at the cost of ten thousand cultures that lived free and without the need for tyranny. Now Horus demands that the stellar nations of this broken empire dance to his tune instead. Billions die for conquest, to advance the pride of these two vain creatures cast in the shapes of men. There is no virtue in fighting for conquest. Nothing is more worthless and hollow than obliterating freedom for the sake of more land, more coin, more voices singing your name in holy hymn. Conquest is as meaningless as glory. Worse, it is evil in its selfishness. Both are triumphs only in a fool’s crusade. No. Not glory, not conquest. [...] Angron’s smile fades, wiped clean by his son’s ignorance. None of them have ever understood. They were always so convinced that he should have been honoured by being given a Legion, when the life he chose was stolen from him the day the Imperium tore him away from his true brothers and sisters. ‘I do not stand with Horus.’ Angron breathes the confession. ‘I stand against the Emperor. Do you understand, Kauragar? I am free now. Free. Can you not understand that? Why have you all spent these last decades telling me I should feel honoured to live as a slave, when I was so close to dying free?’ [...] Angron. Angron. Angron. His name. A slave’s name. He walks through the ruins, enduring the cheers of his bloodstained followers – warriors concerned with glory and conquest, who were born better than the aliens and traitors they slay. Fighting their own kind is practically the first fair fight they have ever endured, and their gene-sire’s lip curls at the thought. Before he was shackled by the Emperor’s will, Angron and his ragged warband defied armies of trained, armed soldiers on his home world. They tasted freedom beneath clean skies and razed the cities of their enslavers. Now he leads an army fattened by centuries of easy slaughter, and they cheer him the way his masters once cheered when he butchered beasts for their entertainment. This is not freedom. He knows that. He knows it well. This is not freedom, he thinks as he stares at the World Eaters screaming his name. But the fight is only just beginning. When the Emperor dies under his axes, when his final thought is of how the Great Crusade was all in pathetic futility, and when his last sight is Angron’s iron smile... Then the Master of Mankind will learn what Angron has known since he picked up his first blade. Freedom is the only thing worth fighting for. It is why tyrants always fall. All the books I plan to get are on Audible and this was the sample they gave for War Without End. I had never heard of Angron before this or if I had, I forgot about it. I like him now.
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Dec 28, 2019 17:43
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NikkolasKing posted:Conquest? What tyrant first dreamed of conquest and clad violent oppression in terms of virtue? Why does the imposition of one will over another draw men like no other sin? For more than two hundred years, the Emperor has demanded that the galaxy align itself to his principles at the cost of ten thousand cultures that lived free and without the need for tyranny. Now Horus demands that the stellar nations of this broken empire dance to his tune instead. Billions die for conquest, to advance the pride of these two vain creatures cast in the shapes of men. There is no virtue in fighting for conquest. Nothing is more worthless and hollow than obliterating freedom for the sake of more land, more coin, more voices singing your name in holy hymn. betrayer is probably one of the best books in the warhammer 40k and defiently one of the best Horus heresy books.
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Dec 28, 2019 19:02
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Has anyone read Mark of Faith? Is it any good?
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Dec 29, 2019 09:08
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Dapper_Swindler posted:betrayer is probably one of the best books in the warhammer 40k and defiently one of the best Horus heresy books. The cool thing about Betrayer is that the title could refer to almost any of the main and secondary characters, for completely different reasons
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Dec 29, 2019 10:16
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:The cool thing about Betrayer is that the title could refer to almost any of the main and secondary characters, for completely different reasons The best thing about that is that the only person I can think of that it doesn't apply to in this book is Kharn.
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Dec 29, 2019 10:56
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Khizan posted:The best part is that the only person I can think of that it doesn't apply to is Kharn. It's funny because he used to be sort of a comedy character for a lot of 40k fans but the HH books turned him into one of the most interesting and tragic characters in the whole setting. ADB outdid himself.
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Dec 29, 2019 11:05
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BigRed0427 posted:Has anyone read Mark of Faith? Is it any good? Here's a review from a goon: https://www.goonhammer.com/book-review-mark-of-faith-by-rachel-harrison/ (Short answer is 'largely yes, but some bits not so much.')
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Dec 29, 2019 15:34
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BigRed0427 posted:Has anyone read Mark of Faith? Is it any good? I really enjoyed it. I wish I had picked up the LE edition now that I've read it.
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Dec 29, 2019 16:04
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MonsterEnvy posted:Hamilcar is a great book. Also found it someone amusing that the Beastmen were using Warriors of Chaos as fodder. It is, even if it does read very much like a Cain book at times with various "If I knew at that point" mentions here and there.
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Dec 29, 2019 16:07
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I do have to wonder how much outside knowledge is suggested or even required to read these novels? I like to think I have the broad strokes pretty figured out thanks to years on forums but take the "sentient knife" in the Interex museum. Am I supposed to understand this was a weapon blessed by Nurgle as I just read on a Reddit post? I've heard about the Interex before of course. Often touted out as one of the Imperium's greatest crimes/failures. Everything seems pretty self-explanatory thus far, though. Maybe some finer technical details of how various machines or whatnot work but beyond that I understand it all I think.
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Dec 30, 2019 13:57
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NikkolasKing posted:I do have to wonder how much outside knowledge is suggested or even required to read these novels? The Interex makes an excellent contrast against the Imperium in several ways. Firstly, there's the comparison between them (or what little we know of them) and the Imperium both pre-Heresy (already showing the rot beneath its gilt facade) and post-Heresy (techno-barbaric theocratic fascist feudalistic hellhole). In comparison, the Interex made the truth about the denizens of the Warp plain and simple to all its people, ensuring every member of their culture knew exactly what the Chaos Gods were after and the dangers they posed. The result of this education? Chaos basically couldn't get it's hooks into any Interex: they were so powerless against them they had to manipulate the Space Marine Legions into doing their dirty work for them. on your other point. i think it can be somewhat hard to get into 40k novels. my gf likes the fantasy warhammer stuff but she has trouble getting into 40k. she tried caiphas but she got bored of the plotline being the same over and over.
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Dec 30, 2019 21:43
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Dapper_Swindler posted:The Interex makes an excellent contrast against the Imperium in several ways. Firstly, there's the comparison between them (or what little we know of them) and the Imperium both pre-Heresy (already showing the rot beneath its gilt facade) and post-Heresy (techno-barbaric theocratic fascist feudalistic hellhole). In comparison, the Interex made the truth about the denizens of the Warp plain and simple to all its people, ensuring every member of their culture knew exactly what the Chaos Gods were after and the dangers they posed. The result of this education? Chaos basically couldn't get it's hooks into any Interex: they were so powerless against them they had to manipulate the Space Marine Legions into doing their dirty work for them. When I first learned of Warhammer 10 years ago I thought I'd be more into Fantasy than 40k, too. However, coming back to the franchise with an eye to more seriously study it, I feel like 40K has a lot more detail to it? The Horus Heresy interests me greatly. Retcons and contradictions might abound but at least they are trying to craft a giant, engrossing world with a fascinating history. Plus, and this one is a bit more personal, the fact 40K has all the audiobooks naturally attracts me to it as I need audiobooks. I've always been confused about the precise relationship between the 40K Galaxy and Warhammer Fantasy. As a Chaos fan for instance I was confused about how, in the old Fantasy Chaos lore, the Chaos Gods had positive aspects. Slaanesh is the God of Love, Khorne the God of Honor, Nurgle the God of Hope, and Tzeenthc...I have no idea. This duality appears to be totally absent in 40K accounts of the Chaos Gods. Also, speaking of 40K getting more detailed and fascianting history, Slaanesh gets a "birth" in 40K. S/he is just there in WHFB. Lame. Again it feels like they just put way more thought into the 40K setting.
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Dec 30, 2019 21:57
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NikkolasKing posted:When I first learned of Warhammer 10 years ago I thought I'd be more into Fantasy than 40k, too. However, coming back to the franchise with an eye to more seriously study it, I feel like 40K has a lot more detail to it? The Horus Heresy interests me greatly. Retcons and contradictions might abound but at least they are trying to craft a giant, engrossing world with a fascinating history. Tzeench is the god of hope, Nurgle of Life/health based on their portfolios
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Dec 30, 2019 22:10
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Zore posted:Tzeench is the god of hope, Nurgle of Life/health based on their portfolios Nurgle loves life, he just has a very pragmatic approach of optimizing its abundance.
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Dec 31, 2019 00:13
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NikkolasKing posted:I've always been confused about the precise relationship between the 40K Galaxy and Warhammer Fantasy.
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Dec 31, 2019 02:13
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Arquinsiel posted:Fantasy is older and pretty much just ripped straight from Michael Moorcock's Elric saga, map and all. 40k was their own thing but drawing on the minis they had with a lot of 2000AD comic influence. There was always a vague connection back in the early days, with Chaos pretty much just using the same rules for both games, but that has been downplayed of late. Connections still exist but they are kind of just subtle references and writers sneaking things through. I remember Warhammer fans adamantly insisting that the immensely more popular and well-known Warrcaft and Starcraft were just ripoffss of WHFB and WH40K. I have no idea since I never played the craft games. I have played Dragon Age though and I feel like there's a pronounced 40K influence there. Not too bad for a pretty niche tabletop game.
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Dec 31, 2019 02:39
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NikkolasKing posted:I remember Warhammer fans adamantly insisting that the immensely more popular and well-known Warrcaft and Starcraft were just ripoffss of WHFB and WH40K. I have no idea since I never played the craft games.
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Dec 31, 2019 03:43
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Early 40k is basically Dune with Starship Troopers, 2000AD and a splash of classic British cynicism sprinkled on top.
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Dec 31, 2019 06:43
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Speaking of rogue trader, what's the funniest 40k book?
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Dec 31, 2019 07:34
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Improbable Lobster posted:Speaking of rogue trader, what's the funniest 40k book? The Ciaphas Cain novels are known for their humor, but you should really check out Rites of Passage. The main character is an old navigator matriarch who is an amalgamation of all four golden girls. It's still a serious book, but she is a give no fucks old woman with scorching wit and sarcasm that ice burns 90% of the people she comes into contact with. The chaos storyline in it is excellent too and has a great character with some really cool POVs. Combine that with all the navigator lore/political intrigue we rarely get to see and it is a very unique 40k book that I hope we get to see more of.
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Dec 31, 2019 17:56
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Mark of Faith was just superb. Also super gay, so that helped. First time I've seen an explicitly LBGT protagonist in 40k so that's really neat! Also the first 40k love story I've read too. Its depictions of the warp were really really well done.
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Dec 31, 2019 22:17
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Cat Army 
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Improbable Lobster posted:Speaking of rogue trader, what's the funniest 40k book? As mentioned above, Ciaphas Cain is probably the most explicitly funny, but I find that ADB's chaos marine books always have a solid dose of good laughs.
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Jan 1, 2020 04:06
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IshmaelZarkov posted:As mentioned above, Ciaphas Cain is probably the most explicitly funny, but I find that ADB's chaos marine books always have a solid dose of good laughs. I thought Lords of Silence had some humorous bits to it as well, although everybody may not see it that way.
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Jan 1, 2020 04:32
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Was it maybe in here that someone recommended A Memory Called Empire and another book that's thematically similar got recommended a couple of months ago? If so, it was really good and I wish I could remember the second recommended book/be recommended it again. Also people should read Alex Wells's Hunger Makes The Wolf which is also very good but it's not really thematically related, it's just a traditional left wing scifi/labor union book.
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Jan 1, 2020 16:29
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Really not sure what to make of what Erebus shows Horus. Erebus is a snake I trust as far as I could throw him. But apparently everything he shows Horus is right on the money. Hell, later material posits the Emperor planned the entire Heresy, let alone permitted the Primarchs to be scattered. Alas, poor Karkasy. He was too normal and too good for this universe. I am unsatisfied with how the Legion fell. Horus was okay but Abaddon and hundreds more? When speaking of how emotionally unstable the Primarchs and Space Marines are, somebody likened them to the Greek Heroes of old. They were a bunch of lunatics, too.. But this is not a Greek Tragedy, it's a modern story. Alongside the Astartes willing to murder poets and frame their sworn brother are reasonable people like Loken, Tarik and Karkasy. As such, I repeat: the Emperor created a bunch of insane super murderers. It's all too rushed and unbelievable. Couple that with the fact Erebus couldn't fool a particularly stupid 3-year-old and it really hurts the story. I liked the book but they really rushed the beginning. There's over a hundred loving books, they couldn't have done the Legion's turn to Chaos more than one-and-a-half? Even three probably would have been better. Dapper_Swindler posted:The Interex makes an excellent contrast against the Imperium in several ways. Firstly, there's the comparison between them (or what little we know of them) and the Imperium both pre-Heresy (already showing the rot beneath its gilt facade) and post-Heresy (techno-barbaric theocratic fascist feudalistic hellhole). In comparison, the Interex made the truth about the denizens of the Warp plain and simple to all its people, ensuring every member of their culture knew exactly what the Chaos Gods were after and the dangers they posed. The result of this education? Chaos basically couldn't get it's hooks into any Interex: they were so powerless against them they had to manipulate the Space Marine Legions into doing their dirty work for them. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9rrlx8/its_easy_to_romanticize_them_as_theyre_ostensibly/e8jt85x?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
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Jan 1, 2020 19:59
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HH wasn't supposed to be a huge book series, I think they originally wanted it to be more limited like the siege of Terra. Then it sold gangbusters and it was stretched out.
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Jan 1, 2020 21:14
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Yeah if they had known how big it would be they would have started way earlier in the timeline
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Jan 1, 2020 21:35
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Did they ever show Corax's reaction to Angron's predicament? It's surprising the guy most interested in justice never mentions it.
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Jan 1, 2020 21:49
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NikkolasKing posted:Really not sure what to make of what Erebus shows Horus. Erebus is a snake I trust as far as I could throw him. But apparently everything he shows Horus is right on the money. Hell, later material posits the Emperor planned the entire Heresy, let alone permitted the Primarchs to be scattered. I really liked this part because, like you said, we can't be certain it's genuine but it's absolutely possible and believable. There's the later part of the vision also, where it seems like Horus is sent back in time to see the primarchs right before they are scattered. The emperor finds him, sees what's happening to the primarchs, and even appears to recognize Horus and the future he represents, and I don't remember the exact phrasing but it seems like he knows what's going to happen and decides to let it all happen.
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Jan 2, 2020 05:12
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abrosheen posted:I really liked this part because, like you said, we can't be certain it's genuine but it's absolutely possible and believable. Exactly. He turns away and lets all of them get scattered by the Warp Vortex thingy. At the same time this must be what originally happened, sans Future Horus and Erebus being there. So maybe stopping it would be time fuckery that he cannot do even if he wanted? Sorta the whole "go back and kill Hitler but inadvertently make things worse" deal. That doesn't explain his general indifference, however. They say he looks kinda sad but his actions and words don't really communicate that and I'm drat sure Horus didn't feel like his father was terribly upset by what was happening to his children. As I said I'm pretty cool with Horus' fall as the whole trip with Erebus was pretty persuasive. Horus realizing that it wasn't his friend also spoke well of him and that he wasn't just the biggest idiot ever.
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Jan 2, 2020 05:38
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If I recall recent lore. Pretty much the Heresy was planned, but it started faster then it was supposed to.
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Jan 2, 2020 07:38
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MonsterEnvy posted:If I recall recent lore. Pretty much the Heresy was planned, but it started faster then it was supposed to. I mean, even early storylines support this. In Legion, we learn that the Cabal knows the Heresy was going to happen, albeit two years down the road. And then John hears that Horus is already Warmaster and shits his pants.
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Jan 2, 2020 07:46
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I've always assumed it was because of the Thunder Warriors. The first time he used a bunch of superhuman killing machines to do his dirty work, he ended up having to kill them off afterwards because they represented the greatest threat to the peace he'd established on Terra. Presumably, the Marines would be equally threatening after the crusade wrapped up, so the Big E arranged to have the Primarchs, and thus the legions, split in half and wipe each other out such that the few survivors would be easier to handle and control. Which is pretty much what happened, except it happened way too early and the galaxy hadn't been fully pacified yet, and Horus managed to stab and cripple the Emperor himself, so he wasn't functional enough to establish the new order properly and the whole thing went pear shaped when the religion of the God-Emperor not only became a thing, but became the dominant force in his Imperium.
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Jan 2, 2020 08:07
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jng2058 posted:I've always assumed it was because of the Thunder Warriors. The first time he used a bunch of superhuman killing machines to do his dirty work, he ended up having to kill them off afterwards because they represented the greatest threat to the peace he'd established on Terra. Also, very importantly, the webway project wasn't complete by the time the Heresy started, so the Chaos gods were able to trash it and ruin the Emperor's plan to free humanity from dependence on the warp.
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Jan 2, 2020 12:48
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I think it's be cooler if the Chaos Gods told Horus all of the Emperor's dirty laundry instead and that's why he turns.
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Jan 2, 2020 18:14
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Fallen Hamprince posted:Also, very importantly, the webway project wasn't complete by the time the Heresy started, so the Chaos gods were able to trash it and ruin the Emperor's plan to free humanity from dependence on the warp. Also Magnus who was supposed to be kept around accidentally sabotaged a bunch of efforts.
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Jan 2, 2020 19:31
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An interesting thing for me - a guy who is more or less clueless about the various Primarchs and Legions and the established lore surrounding them outside of the novels - s how Magnus was the person trying to save Horus from Erebus and the Chaos corruption yet I had heard he and his Legion are among the big Traitors. So that was weird and I guess I'm gonna have to read Thousand Sons and some of the other novels to get into why this change of heart happened. Granted he was already using Warp magic and human sacrifices but so does the Imperium. That alone isn't really a sign you'll turn to Chaos. At the rate I'm going I'll be lucky to have read even 75% of the books I wanna read by the end of this year. Those audiobooks aren't cheap and the more I keep reading the more HH novels I figure I can't skip lest I miss something. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 2, 2020 |
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Jan 2, 2020 19:39
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My read of it is that the Emperor counted on there being a civil war, but not one with Chaos God involvement.
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Jan 2, 2020 20:00
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VanSandman posted:My read of it is that the Emperor counted on there being a civil war, but not one with Chaos God involvement. Well I imagine he expected it, it just happened sooner then he wanted. Magnus was also not supposed to gently caress up the webway or be among the traitors if I recall correctly. (Cause Magnus's fate was supposed to be what happened to the Emperor. Serving as an external battery for the Throne.)
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Jan 2, 2020 21:02
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 Thank you 40klore. I was beginning to think I imagined reading that the Chaos Gods had positive aspects or I took all the stuff I read online and confused that wth official sources. I did get it wrong in thinking this was a Fantasy only thing, it is about 40K Chaos, too. This is old lore, from Realms of Chaos Lost and the Damned, but at least I know it was a thing at one point. I don't think it is anymore though. I have the Liber Chaotica but gently caress it's long and text-to-speech doesn't work on it. What is with GW not rereleasing some things? Why is this stuff not at least on DriveThruRPG?
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Jan 2, 2020 21:27
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