|
B-Nasty posted:Those were simpler times... until the grounding prong came along and ruined all the fun. We could still have space saving designs like this: You can still get a triplex if you go chonky 
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2020 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 10:35 |
|
|
Qwijib0 posted:You can still get a triplex if you go chonky Bonus, it solves the ground-up/ground-down debate once and for all. I'm ground orientation fluid.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2020 20:45
|
|
|
Yeah, but now you have to pick a left / right orientation for the middle plug.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
B-Nasty posted:Bonus, it solves the ground-up/ground-down debate once and for all. I'm ground orientation fluid. Nice try but there's not even a debate, right angle appliance plugs with the ground on bottom have proved this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2020 21:45
|
|
|
opengl128 posted:Nice try but there's not even a debate, right angle appliance plugs with the ground on bottom have proved this. Tell that to my Amana chest freezer in the garage, for which I just installed a dedicated outlet (ground-down) before looking at the plug, then had to go back and rotate it to be ground-up, so the cord doesn't look like it's trying to do a yoga back-bend.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2020 22:23
|
|
|
That thing should be returned as defective. Or if it were me I'd cut it off and replace with the correct style.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 00:00
|
|
|
Qwijib0 posted:You can still get a triplex if you go chonky this makes my brain hurt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 00:52
|
|
|
On man I want to start back into electrical work just so I can make our local inspector's head explode installing those
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 01:55
|
|
|
They’re even UL and CSA approved, surprisingly http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_AC315.htm
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 04:18
|
|
|
My grandmother's house - and elementary school - were both full of these.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 08:25
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:On man I want to start back into electrical work just so I can make our local inspector's head explode installing those Now I want to install two of them side by side with one flipped so I get a sweet circle of six plugs 
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 14:04
|
|
|
opengl128 posted:Nice try but there's not even a debate, right angle appliance plugs with the ground on bottom have proved this. I don't know if it's code, but it SHOULD be ground up from a safety perspective, on the off chance a plug sort-of starts to fall out of the socket, and the pins are exposed, and then also someone drops something thin and metal directly above it and it somehow lands perfectly in the gap between the plug and socket. With ground pin up, it will hit the ground pin, so then even if it falls onto the hot as well, it's grounded and no issue. With ground down, there's a chance it could short out the hot and neutral. But I have to question if that sequence of events has EVER happened, or if it's just some NFPA guy's wet dream. That being said, I prefer down, if only because, as said, things like consumer appliances and other plugs that have an orientation almost always assume it will be down. I think the only time I consistently see ground plug up is in hospitals.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 15:16
|
|
|
I've heard that hypothetical before and its so absurdly unlikely that I also don't believe it's ever happened. Besides, ground up just looks wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 15:32
|
|
|
opengl128 posted:I've heard that hypothetical before and its so absurdly unlikely that I also don't believe it's ever happened. I can imagine it. 20 years ago my first job was a grocery store cashier, the checkout lanes were built to fit the cash register and everything was snug to within a 1/4 inch. Nobody ever pulled it apart to dust/clean so it's conceivable that after 10 years of vibration from the belt motor, cases of beer being slammed down and the cash drawer banging open and shut the plug would work it's way out. Lots of customers didn't want their change so we'd leave it ontop of the register to use on other transactions, and sometimes they'd fall into the cracks. I still install mine ground down regardless.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 16:40
|
|
|
If the ground-down urban legends were true, or there was any justifiable safety benefit, the NFPA would've already had a requirement for outlet orientation in the NEC. I heard some AHJs require ground-up to represent a switched outlet, because it obviously jumps out as different from the standard ground-down. "Hey, why is this outlet upside down...hmm, I wonder if that switch controls that one."
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
How do you remove one of two adjacent plugs without yanking the cord? These must have been before flanges on plug bases were a thing. At least they're polarized.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 21:21
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:How do you remove one of two adjacent plugs without yanking the cord? These must have been before flanges on plug bases were a thing. At least they're polarized. Old plugs were small, skinny things. You could likely pull them out pinching the sides without the plug catching on its neighbors above/below. Still amazingly hazardous.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
DrBouvenstein posted:I don't know if it's code, but it SHOULD be ground up from a safety perspective, on the off chance a plug sort-of starts to fall out of the socket, and the pins are exposed, and then also someone drops something thin and metal directly above it and it somehow lands perfectly in the gap between the plug and socket. Um. Hot to ground would cause a short. So if this hypothetical coin or picture nail did fall onto the ground pin first and then fall to the side touching the hot it would... Ya know what? This is silly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 01:55
|
|
|
It's cute that we even debate the miniscule issues like this about US plugs when the UK and EU style plugs exist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 02:36
|
|
|
Isn't that like half of the work electricians do though? Making existing outdated equipment as safe as they practically can without an expensive complete replacement.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
Hubis posted:It's cute that we even debate the miniscule issues like this about US plugs when the UK and EU style plugs exist. UK and EU plugs aren't really similar at all. Also having each appliance fused at the plug is great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 11:28
|
|
|
kecske posted:UK and EU plugs aren't really similar at all. Also having each appliance fused at the plug is great. I was mostly thinking about the safety feature of only having the bottom half of the prongs be conductive so that a conductor is never exposed while energized (which I believe both have?). Also the design of the EU plug where it's inset into the outlet, making it inherently mechanically study -- it looked ugly as hell to me at first, but I quickly realized what a good idea it was.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 11:35
|
|
|
DrBouvenstein posted:I don't know if it's code, but it SHOULD be ground up from a safety perspective, on the off chance a plug sort-of starts to fall out of the socket, and the pins are exposed, and then also someone drops something thin and metal directly above it and it somehow lands perfectly in the gap between the plug and socket. This exact situation actually happened to me, but I work in AV so the amount of crap clients expect us to cram behind monitors makes this more of a likely scenario. Luckily it just tripped a breaker so all I had to do is let the electrician know.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 14:47
|
|
|
Hubis posted:I was mostly thinking about the safety feature of only having the bottom half of the prongs be conductive so that a conductor is never exposed while energized (which I believe both have?). yeah the live pins (line and neutral - I have to think to get the terms straight) are sheathed along the bottom quarter of their length so that if the plug works loose there's still nothing live to touch. If it works loose enough to go past the sheath and have the live part of the pin exposed then its already broken contact with the supply.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 16:25
|
|
|
DrBouvenstein posted:I don't know if it's code, but it SHOULD be ground up from a safety perspective, on the off chance a plug sort-of starts to fall out of the socket, and the pins are exposed, and then also someone drops something thin and metal directly above it and it somehow lands perfectly in the gap between the plug and socket. Isn't the net effect of dropping a paper clip across Live and Neutral or Live and Ground effectively the same? You melt the paperclip until the breaker trips? Or would a GFCI trip faster?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 16:36
|
|
|
Guy Axlerod posted:Isn't the net effect of dropping a paper clip across Live and Neutral or Live and Ground effectively the same? You melt the paperclip until the breaker trips? Or would a GFCI trip faster? Live/ground in a gfci protected circuit would result in a gfci trip *probably* prior to the overcurrent breaker. Live/neutral is all overcurrent breaker. Or the paperclip exploding.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
Ferrule posted:Um. Hot to ground would cause a short. So if this hypothetical coin or picture nail did fall onto the ground pin first and then fall to the side touching the hot it would... Guy Axlerod posted:Isn't the net effect of dropping a paper clip across Live and Neutral or Live and Ground effectively the same? You melt the paperclip until the breaker trips? Or would a GFCI trip faster? Yeah, true...I guess there is no point to ground pin up. And, uh also, an outlet is clearly a happy face with ground pin down, so there's a reason.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 18:29
|
|
|
Based off recent conversation, which one of you started this new "challenge"? https://abc7chicago.com/outlet-challenge-could-cause-fire-serious-injury/5869905/
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 23:09
|
|
|
Nevets posted:Isn't that like half of the work electricians do though? Making existing outdated equipment as safe as they practically can without an expensive complete replacement. We make existing, outdated equipment as safe as possible and make it look difficult to do so which is why we're all millionaires.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:16
|
|
|
Note that with ground up, you have a 50/50 chance of a N/G short (or near as makes no difference, given the difference in size between L/N), so you're cutting your number of incidents in half. With ground down, you have a 100% chance of an L/N short (for anything that would actually short, that is). I mean I don't really care because in any case we're talking about a teeny tiny chance of this actually occurring (half of 0 is still 0), but if we're arguing technicalities then they are not functionally equivalent. edit: durr someone already mentioned this. not sure how I didn't see it. DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jan 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:39
|
|
|
DaveSauce posted:Note that with ground up, you have a 50/50 chance of a N/G short (or near as makes no difference, given the difference in size between L/N), so you're cutting your number of incidents in half. With ground down, you have a 100% chance of an L/N short (for anything that would actually short, that is). We should do what they do for UK plugs (I think) which is plastic coat the shafts of the pins so that if the plug isn’t seated properly you can’t short anything
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 22:37
|
|
|
Is there any reason why a circuit breaker+plug expander after a GFCI outlet would be unsafe? I have only one duplex outlet in my bathroom and more things I want to plug in. The expander I have in hand is sized to plug into and cover a shorter non-GFCI outlet, so it doesn't fit. It doesn't actually use anything from the bottom outlet, it just has a plastic piece that normally goes into the second ground socket. I can't think of anything electrically different about it compared to a GFCI breaker in a panel followed by downstream breakers and more outlets (And if you have ground up outlets with a droopy plug getting worked out, won't the ground contact break connection first? That seems worse than the hypothetical falling paperclip)
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2020 04:10
|
|
|
Foxfire_ posted:Is there any reason why a circuit breaker+plug expander after a GFCI outlet would be unsafe? Nope, that's fine. Just don't forget to test/reset your GFCIs regularly... Nobody does this, which is why the newer ones auto-test.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2020 14:18
|
|
|
Foxfire_ posted:Is there any reason why a circuit breaker+plug expander after a GFCI outlet would be unsafe? I have only one duplex outlet in my bathroom and more things I want to plug in. The expander I have in hand is sized to plug into and cover a shorter non-GFCI outlet, so it doesn't fit. It doesn't actually use anything from the bottom outlet, it just has a plastic piece that normally goes into the second ground socket. I can't think of anything electrically different about it compared to a GFCI breaker in a panel followed by downstream breakers and more outlets Nope. I suppose if you use one of those giant 6-outlet ones that is designed to screw into the center of a duplex, that screw might cause problems and push buttons. Daisy chaining breakers of any type can be a pain if one trips and you need to find which one it was. There can be some weirdness with the length of the cable between the device and the GFCI. My older clothes washer would trip the GFCI if it was plugged in directly, but wouldn't trip if I had it plugged into that same GFCI via a 100' extension cord. I eventually swapped the GFCI for a commercial grade one. Actually, it wouldn't. The ground prong is longer than the hot and neutral prongs.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2020 23:38
|
|
 So what is going on here? Trying to wire a fan remote in. The rocker switch doesn't seem to do anything and hasnt for years. The green wire is going to the remote for the old fan but that is powered by a battery so I have no idea what any of this poo poo is. I'm not wiring it, but I'm posting to help who is.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
Originally, there were 2 switches in that box. The one on the right operated the ceiling fan. It was removed and bypassed when the ceiling fan remote was added. They needed a remote operated fan because there wasn't /3 running up to the fan to power the fan separately from the light. The switch was bypassed to give the remote's base unit in the fan housing constant power. The green wire was the ground for the in-box remote. The black wire from the yellow wire nut going into the box goes up to the fan. All of the wires in this box are on the same circuit. Does the remaining switch operate any of the outlets in the room?
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2020 20:58
|
|
kid sinister posted:Does the remaining switch operate any of the outlets in the room? Yes an unused one under the bed we'd forgotten about. Had him read your post and he walked off and got busy messing with it again so I guess you helped. Will let you know.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2020 21:21
|
|
|
Weird question, long story for why it's relevant, but what's a good non-conducting very heat resistant dielectric? Preferably one I can get in a thin to very thin form factor? Basically trying to kludge myself something like a lovely diy capacitor that can stand up to direct contact with flame.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 19:01
|
|
|
Would Kapton tape work?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 19:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 10:35 |
|
|
Nevets posted:Would Kapton tape work? Maybe! I was hoping for something that can handle like 1500 degrees+. Do they make something like thin fiberglass tape or something? Ideally with insulating properties?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 21:36
|
|