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physical manifestation of the desire to be edgy superseding having an actual ideology
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Feb 11, 2020 18:24
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Grevling posted:Then why are the responses of most of the people in this thread indistinguishable from those of the extremely hyphenated crowd replying to that thread? what
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Feb 11, 2020 18:25
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Grevling posted:Then why are the responses of most of the people in this thread indistinguishable from those of the extremely hyphenated crowd replying to that thread? She's made a splash online.
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Feb 11, 2020 18:27
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Peering over the post with a magnifying glass, what do they mean
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Feb 11, 2020 18:29
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freckle posted:what She didn't say anything basically wrong.
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Feb 11, 2020 18:32
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Grevling posted:She didn't say anything basically wrong. She did, she's trying to refute one misinterpretation of Marx (which is not, in my experience, anywhere near as prevalent as she implies) with another, see the reply from the stopped clock at libcom https://twitter.com/libcomorg/status/1226808590276734981
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Feb 11, 2020 18:36
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To me, she's conflating Marxism with Marx. Something the man himself literally made fun of. Acting like his personal opines on modern consumerism 150 years removed will remain highly relevant is laughable. Marx was prescient but not a god.
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Feb 11, 2020 18:44
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when i think of marxists, i think of a desire to return to a golden past
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Feb 11, 2020 18:48
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It's a minute long sound byte and I disagree that it's not a worryingly common mistake to make Marxism out to be a kind of anti-consumerism, which is what she's arguing against. Libcom's reply would be apt if she'd been repeating the old feudalism to capitalism to communism as a theory of history canard which she does not. Homeless Friend posted:To me, she's conflating Marxism with Marx. Something the man himself literally made fun of. Acting like his personal opines on modern consumerism 150 years removed will remain highly relevant is laughable. Marx was prescient but not a god. Life under Capitalism sucks in many ways but there are some things that definitely don't suck and we sound like spoiled contrarians when we don't acknowledge that. She's really speaking to the people who are unfamiliar with Marxism here and think it's just people complaining about consumerism. Grevling fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 18:50
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Serf posted:when i think of marxists, i think of a desire to return to a golden past yeah I mean...what? who doesn't think marxism is fundamentally utopian project/form of thought? And does it necessarily follow that getting rid of consumerism is a return to the past and not some path forward? I mean she's not wrong that a lot of people haven't read Marx but beyond that it seems like she's trying to attack some small group of people but make it seem like she's actually referring to the entire modern left at the same time Grevling posted:Life under Capitalism sucks in many ways but there are some things that definitely don't suck and we sound like spoiled contrarians when we don't acknowledge that. this I can agree with -- and the people who tend to be the most against consumerism are always the ones who have most of their material needs already met. For me it's more of a strategic blunder than a theoretical one to dismiss the material wealth capitalism provides for some people. Being able to have that but with a redistribution of those resources and without the exploitation in the production was supposed to be the sales pitch. Ultimately Marxism can't help you if you feel spiritually unfulfilled by having endless consumer choice, it can help you if you have endless consumer choice but are dying from not being able to afford insulin. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 18:56
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Grevling posted:It's a minute long sound byte and I disagree that it's not a worryingly common mistake to make Marxism out to be a kind of anti-consumerism, which is what she's arguing against. She is invoking the strawman of accelerationist Marx, which relies on that theory
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Feb 11, 2020 18:58
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also lmao at trying to own people for not reading Marx while while making an argument based exclusively on rhetoric from chapter one page one of the manifesto
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Feb 11, 2020 19:00
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Bryter posted:She is invoking the strawman of accelerationist Marx, which relies on that theory I'm just not getting that from the video at all.
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Feb 11, 2020 19:00
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Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't one of the oldest rightwing tricks in the book going back nearly a 100 years to claim "Uh actually marx loved the free market and capitalism so your a bad marxist for going around being so anti-capitalist" ?
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Feb 11, 2020 19:00
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it's just reeks of "actually the correct position is to sit around opining uselessly all day instead of doing something. please do not attempt to alter the current course of events  "
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Feb 11, 2020 19:01
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https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1007758296336330753?lang=en
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Feb 11, 2020 19:02
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i hope elon musk is dead soon
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Feb 11, 2020 19:03
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Marx was a book. He even wrote Capital about it.
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Feb 11, 2020 19:05
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Grevling posted:She didn't say anything basically wrong. Her frame of "some people read Marx as a primitivist" is both pretty dubious and cedes a lot of rhetorical ground to anticommunists, who should never be taken seriously as authorities on Marx. If she's "not preaching to the converted" like she says in the replies, why not start somewhere more productive for people getting into Marxism for the first time? The reality is that she's trying to stake a claim to being the anti-woke but Marxist type of contrarian.
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Feb 11, 2020 19:06
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Her frame of "some people read Marx as a primitivist" is both pretty dubious and cedes a lot of rhetorical ground to anticommunists, who should never be taken seriously as authorities on Marx. Yeah she might have given some examples, but it's really just a short clip here. She might be thinking about some strains of ecosocialism maybe. Imo anything that's going to get new people to engage with Marx is a positive and one of the biggest hurdles is probably to dispel some of the misconceptions people have about him since so few people bother to read him. I get the sense that many people's idea of Marx and communism more similar to the kind of people he would fight against ("barracks communism" and so on), and in that sense saying Marx was a great admirer of Capitalism while maybe reductive could be a good way to break some of the preconceived notions people have so they might actually become interested.
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Feb 11, 2020 19:19
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Speaking of books no one's reads, has anyone taken a look at Piketty's new book Capital and Ideology? I'm finishing up his first book, finally, and this one sounds a bit more interesting to me.quote:Among the proposals in the book are that employees should have 50% of the seats on company boards; that the voting power of even the largest shareholders should be capped at 10%; much higher taxes on property, rising to 90% for the largest estates; a lump sum capital allocation of €120,000 (just over £107,000) to everyone when they reach 25; and an individualised carbon tax calculated by a personalised card that would track each person’s contribution to global heating. Piketty's explicitly not anti-capitalist, he states that outright in his first book, but I've become interested in non-Marxist thinkers trying to come to grips with inequality and capitalism. As it turns out most people figured out roughly what the problem was with their economic system in the 19th century but came to some wildly different solutions, like C.H. Douglas and the Social Credit movement. Or later on Huey Long and his Share Our Wealth program which is probably the most extreme proposal I've ever seen to curtail capitalism in order to save it.
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Feb 11, 2020 19:21
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I probably hate the post-scarcity cliche more than the anti-consumerist cliche. While the latter is annoying and moralistic, the former is a sort of "everything is permitted, the paradise that is just around the corner will be brought closer" free card. Besides, the post-scarcity cliche is married to the productive forces school of socialist development, which is bad enough that I would prefer being personally tortured to death by some misguided mob in some cultural revolution redux if it could avert productivist socialists from running the show.
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Feb 11, 2020 20:06
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If I ever get around to Capital and Ideology, I'm probably going to give it the intro-and-conclusion treatment. Capital in the 21st Century was a chore to get through as an assigned text for a course, and the only thing interesting about it, aside from Piketty's analytical rigor, is that it provoked such a strong reaction from liberals. This one seems like more of the same with a little extra provocation.
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Feb 11, 2020 20:24
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uncop posted:I probably hate the post-scarcity cliche more than the anti-consumerist cliche. While the latter is annoying and moralistic, the former is a sort of "everything is permitted, the paradise that is just around the corner will be brought closer" free card. Besides, the post-scarcity cliche is married to the productive forces school of socialist development, which is bad enough that I would prefer being personally tortured to death by some misguided mob in some cultural revolution redux if it could avert productivist socialists from running the show. If the right can 'ironically' Stan nazis by saying they had a nice aesthetic, well, folks, we can do the same with the cultural revolution.
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Feb 11, 2020 20:32
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The degree with which the entire discipline of economics ignored Capital In The 21st Century is pretty hilarious though. There was an article written a few years back about how people reviewed it then just ignored it, although that was beginning to change at the time with young economists/grad students really starting to dig into it. Yeah I know, big surprise most of economists are full of poo poo, but publicly ignoring one of their own isn't usually how academics go about freezing out people they don't like. Piketty's own experience in the intro in Capital & 21st is pretty interesting too.
Dreylad fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 20:32
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Grevling posted:Life under Capitalism sucks in many ways but there are some things that definitely don't suck and we sound like spoiled contrarians when we don't acknowledge that. She's really speaking to the people who are unfamiliar with Marxism here and think it's just people complaining about consumerism. You also sound like a spoiled contrarian when you don't acknowledge it's totally ecologically unsustainable lol. Not exactly surprising people idealize a situation in which the not suck is kept but the suck is jettisoned, which is what I read anti-consumerism as. She seems twitter poisoned so frankly it's too much work to trawl through to see her True Thoughts™.
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Feb 11, 2020 20:56
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:If the right can 'ironically' Stan nazis by saying they had a nice aesthetic, well, folks, we can do the same with the cultural revolution. Unironically, I'm considerably more offended by you comparing GPCR to nazis than you are by me sympathizing with the effort. What was wrong with it flowed from how it was a badly coordinated, experimental thing done as a last-ditch effort, earning the name of revolution in that sense. You are firstly reducing the whole genuine effort to the spontaneous mass violence and productivity slump that was a part of how it manifested, and secondly equating that with intentional, coordinated, industrial genocide borne out of unashamed racial supremacist ideology.
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Feb 11, 2020 20:58
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In the general political thought of the US, it's about equivalent. I wasn't saying I believe they're the same.
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Feb 11, 2020 21:05
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Dreylad posted:The degree with which the entire discipline of economics ignored Capital In The 21st Century is pretty hilarious though. There was an article written a few years back about how people reviewed it then just ignored it, although that was beginning to change at the time with young economists/grad students really starting to dig into it. Yeah I know, big surprise most of economists are full of poo poo, but publicly ignoring one of their own isn't usually how academics go about freezing out people they don't like. Piketty's own experience in the intro in Capital & 21st is pretty interesting too. Yeah, the very serious people in publications like the NY Times and the New Republic fawning over the book as innovative, prophetic, or whatever, and then just forgetting about all its key policy proposals when they were through is what I remember.
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Feb 11, 2020 21:31
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Any new left in America must be, in large measure, a left with real intellectual skills, committed to deliberativeness, honesty, reflection as working tools. The university permits the political life to be an adjunct to the academic one, and action to be informed by reason. A new left must be distributed in significant social roles throughout the country. The universities are distributed in such a manner. A new left must consist of younger people who matured in the postwar world, and partially be directed to the recruitment of younger people. The university is an obvious beginning point. A new left must include liberals and socialists, the former for their relevance, the latter for their sense of thoroughgoing reforms in the system. The university is a more sensible place than a political party for these two traditions to begin to discuss their differences and look for political synthesis. A new left must start controversy across the land, if national policies and national apathy are to be reversed. The ideal university is a community of controversy, within itself and in its effects on communities beyond.
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Feb 11, 2020 21:55
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I'm glad I didn't watch the bad tweet video, that I knew was going to bad, because of the discussion it generated in this thread.
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Feb 11, 2020 22:32
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Tesseraction posted:I'm glad I didn't watch the bad tweet video, that I knew was going to bad, because of the discussion it generated in this thread. I dug down the rabbit hole and it led to the most loving boring youtube bullshit where you sit and listen to a guy talk really slowly, fuckkkk
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Feb 11, 2020 22:38
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communism sounds badass if it killed 40 quadrillion people that's a pretty good kdr
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Feb 11, 2020 22:40
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Homeless Friend posted:I dug down the rabbit hole and it led to the most loving boring youtube bullshit where you sit and listen to a guy talk really slowly, fuckkkk weird time to get into Jordan Peterson but you do you
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Feb 11, 2020 22:41
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I could only take it for four minutes, i tried my best. Man the history channel did this so much better.
Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 22:42
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you can speed up slow talkers on youtube be careful you might start thinking you want someone irl to speed up
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Feb 11, 2020 23:15
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comedyblissoption posted:you can speed up slow talkers on youtube -Walter Benjamin, The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction
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Feb 11, 2020 23:50
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:When you take breadtube too seriously Tellah had it good, he could cast Meteo exactly once, cash out that 9999 on the spot on whoever's on point, and then immediately drop dead. all of these things are essential to have when dealing with BreadTube
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Feb 12, 2020 00:17
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she is a pretty regular contributor to spiked magazine, which is in and of itself living proof that the trot to neocon pipeline still works
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Feb 12, 2020 02:15
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Terrorist Fistbump fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 02:47
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