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PeterWeller posted:Actually, the issue at the start of the film is he orders an attack where he should order a retreat. You're running into trouble and confusion because you're looking at points in isolation. Leia authorized the attack mission. She's in charge of the operation. Then, as noted earlier, her decision to cancel the operation puts everyone in danger. There is no way for the bombers to retreat fast enough to escape. The big ship is going to fire again, but Poe saves everyone at great cost. Leia then blames Poe for the casualties. But here's where you get really tripped up: in basically the next scene, Poe suggests that they all retreat from an overwhelming force. Leia overrules him, and then authorizes an attack. Poe does his best to get to his ship and fight back, but, because Leia reacts slowly, taking a very long time to move her ship out of range, she loses every single remaining fighter. (Why did she dock all the fighters?) And, as noted none of this would have happened if Leia had evacuated the base hours earlier instead of basically throwing a party. Blaming Poe for the loss of the bombers involves ignoring all this contextualizing information and focusing exclusively on the fact that he switched off his radio to ignore Leia (who, as noted, is dangerously incompetent). In the same way, saying that Poe is 'too brash' or belligerent or whatever ignores that he suggests a retreat, and also ignores that his main activity in the film is to lay low while other people do some hacking. Poe demonstrates a variety of tactical approaches to a variety of situations. He retreats in some situations and attacks in others. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 22, 2020 |
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Feb 22, 2020 20:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You're running into trouble and confusion because you're looking at points in isolation. This is not true and youre falling into one of those tactical realism traps that you argue against. The movie tells us that poe and the rebels can get away. No one says : "we are too slow and the bombers are already here!". thats never argued. The bombers etc are no where in the shot until after poe has already disobeyed leia and turned off his comms. When he finally destroys all the guns he says "bring in the bombs!" and the rest of the resistance ships enter the scene. This is not a documentary, there is nothing in there that is saying it would be a tactical mistake to listen to leia and disengage. Jerkface fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Feb 22, 2020 |
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Feb 22, 2020 22:25
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Jerkface posted:This is not true Yep! In fact, the bombers that aren't destroyed directly in the battle DO escape Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Feb 22, 2020 |
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Feb 22, 2020 22:48
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Jerkface posted:This is not true and youre falling into one of those tactical realism traps that you argue against. The movie tells us that poe and the rebels can get away. No one says : "we are too slow and the bombers are already here!". thats never argued. You don't need exposition; it's very obvious that the bombers are too slow. But that's also beside the larger point: Leia has no reason to wait for Poe to return at all. If she just warps out of there, then Poe has no reason to follow through with the attack. (Others have noted that she could just radio the bombers directly, but doesn't - evidently because she's just too sad?) "Tactical realism" refers to the notion that 'bad tactics' are 'unrealistic'. I know that because I am the origin of the term. Now, I am not arguing that Leia's tactics are unrealistic; I'm arguing that Leia is unstable. If we treat the action scenes as characterization, as we must, then Leia is alternately oblivious and overprotective. She holds a party that endangers everyone, then refuses to leave Poe to his own devices. She insists that he come back to her. It seems like she's desperate for people to need her.
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Feb 22, 2020 22:58
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All of the ships involved have their own hyperdrives. There's no reason they have to stick around and wait for them.
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Feb 22, 2020 23:29
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Necrothatcher posted:They never beat ANH where Satan and the Wolfman are just chilling in a bar. The closest thing is the bounty hunter sequence in empire, with mummy burn patient, lizard man, gas mask bug, the first free droid we’ve seen, etc
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Feb 23, 2020 00:17
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Polo-Rican posted:Yep! In fact, the bombers that aren't destroyed directly in the battle DO escape Why do TLJ Defenders consistently lie about the film? Every single bomber is destroyed in the attack. The whole point is that Rose's sister is on the last one and manages to destroy the Dreadnaught.
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Feb 23, 2020 00:52
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DeimosRising posted:The closest thing is the bounty hunter sequence in empire, with mummy burn patient, lizard man, gas mask bug, the first free droid we’ve seen, etc Two droids actually. IG-88 and 4-Lom. Though The Mandalorian seems to have made "Bounty Droids" things sent out by their owners for bounties rather than Droids who happen to be employed as Bounty Hunters.
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Feb 23, 2020 01:38
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Horizon Burning posted:Why do TLJ Defenders consistently lie about the film? Every single bomber is destroyed in the attack. The whole point is that Rose's sister is on the last one and manages to destroy the Dreadnaught. Ah you're right. I was remembering the shot where Leia looks at the panel and sees that most (not all) of their ships had been lost; but i didn't notice that all of the surviving ships weren't bombers
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Feb 23, 2020 01:48
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Make this a real Star Wars game, Disney. Holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! 50:20 1:02:20 1:56:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9txq6A9mak Gonz fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Feb 23, 2020 |
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Feb 23, 2020 03:54
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Rewatching the prequels, it's pretty funny that the sequels lean so hard on "the Skywalker lightsaber" when it's a spare lightsaber someone brought to Geonosis and threw to Obi-Wan as they were passing and Anakin kind of just kept it
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Feb 23, 2020 17:06
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2house2fly posted:Rewatching the prequels, it's pretty funny that the sequels lean so hard on "the Skywalker lightsaber" when it's a spare lightsaber someone brought to Geonosis and threw to Obi-Wan as they were passing and Anakin kind of just kept it nah Anakin built another one before ROTS
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Feb 23, 2020 17:09
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The dude goes through lightsabers. Not that much of a surprise, with all the fights he gets into.
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Feb 23, 2020 17:21
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This weapon is your li- *sighs* *reaches into pocket* this weapon is your life
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Feb 23, 2020 18:13
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There's a merchant out there who has a massive collection of Anakin lightsabers and admits that they're really cheap because you can find one under every other rock in the galaxy
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Feb 23, 2020 18:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You're running into trouble and confusion because you're looking at points in isolation. I'm neither troubled nor confused. The issue here is that I'm reading the plain text of the movies, and you're selectively ignoring parts of that text to paint Leia as incompetent. You really like this point you have about the celebration at the end of Ep7. What you ignore is that the Resistance can't begin being evacuated at that point because the capital ships aren't there yet. You assume the bombers can't escape fast enough, but when Leia orders Poe to call off the mission, the bombers haven't yet been committed. Also, the supposedly competent order you suggest Leia should have made is to leave them all behind to fend for themselves. You say Leia reacts slowly to the attack, but she orders tactical responses to it immediately (turn about, shields up, launch fighters). She orders the move out of range as a response to losing the fighters. At that point their only defense left against those fighters is to get out of range of the capital ships. You wonder why the fighters are docked and speculate they could have all hyperspaced away without Leia waiting for them, but this ignores that the Resistance is dangerously low on hyperfuel. That's obviously why they had to dock before fleeing. "You don't need exposition." And they're still docked when the Resistance gets ambushed because the Resistance wasn't expecting the FO to track them to the middle of nowhere. This is a surprise to literally everyone in the Resistance fleet. I have not painted Poe as "too brash" or "belligerent". I have said that he makes hasty and ill-informed decisions that lead to tragic consequences. It's pretty clear that you don't want to engage with how I am actually characterizing Poe. The really big tell for this is that you avoid addressing the Canto Bight mission.
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Feb 23, 2020 18:23
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Vinylshadow posted:There's a merchant out there who has a massive collection of Anakin lightsabers and admits that they're really cheap because you can find one under every other rock in the galaxy Even Grievous has one. 
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Feb 23, 2020 19:28
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Huh, it's interesting to see a still frame from that and notice that ILM skimped on the rendering for the two upper hands because they were going to be spinning.
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Feb 23, 2020 19:33
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Robot Style posted:Even Grievous has one. At least he stopped by Dok Ondar's and picked up a green crystal for it. It looks like he has one of Obi's sabers as well.
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Feb 23, 2020 19:42
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PeterWeller posted:At least he stopped by Dok Ondar's and picked up a green crystal for it. It looks like he has one of Obi's sabers as well. He also seems to swap them from hand to hand between shots and apparently uses Obi-Wan's, Anakin's, Adi Galia and Ki Adi Mundi's lightsabers (there's different mock-ups for distant and close-up shots, which is probably where they got them from instead of just making new unique lightsabers 
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Feb 23, 2020 20:37
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Yeah, all of Grievous' lightsabers are re-used versions of digidouble lightsabers they already had to make. Two of them are Anakin and Obi-Wan's from Episode 3, and the other two are the ones Anakin and Obi-Wan used at the end of Episode 2.
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Feb 23, 2020 21:37
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Vinylshadow posted:There's a merchant out there who has a massive collection of Anakin lightsabers and admits that they're really cheap because you can find one under every other rock in the galaxy There’s an episode of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air where Hillary reveals that she loses her house keys all the time so she just has a huge stack of dupes ready just in case. I bet Anakin does the same.
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Feb 23, 2020 23:14
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"this weapon is your life" rey: *buries the luke/anakin laser sword next to luke's hated childhood home/adopted family murder scene in sand, anakin's favorite thing*
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Feb 23, 2020 23:21
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Context is important because, when you zoom out far enough, capitalism is universally bad. Things are certainly bad in this particular far-away galaxy. The Republic is poo poo and their only opposition is a cartoonish Stalin-Pope. Zoom in a little more, and you have the Resistance, who are contras. Their entire organization is bad, top to bottom. Would it be better if Leia were really skilled at being a contra, successfully doing black ops missions to undermine democracy? Not really. It’s like pointing out that James Bond isn’t very good at his job and is also a jerk. The point is that Britain needs more competent spies.?Although their choice of leader does help underline the extent of the Resistance’s ideological failure, I point it out mainly because it’s really funny. No character in all of Star Wars is deified to the extent that Leia is in the ST films. Like, even before Fisher’s death, the only ones who come close are Holdo and ST Han Solo - whose deaths are given more import than when Literal Jesus Christ battled Literal Satan to the death. Perhaps the biggest question in all the ST is how Leia’s getting this much wild, uncritical devotion. Example: PeterWeller posted:You really like this point you have about the celebration at the end of Ep7. What you ignore is that the Resistance can't begin being evacuated at that point because the capital ships aren't there yet. Like... huh? Ok, I guess that’s some kind of retroactive explanation for why Holdo didn’t appear in the previous film. We’re never actually shown anything like that, but whatever. In any case, what you’re saying is that the Resistance were all safely split up, and Leia called them all into danger? Every last ship that they had - the entire fleet - Leia called them all to this same spot that they knew was about to face an assault by an enemy known to have Fleet-Killers. But besides that, they don’t need Holdo for an evacuation. Do you know how many people can fit on the Millenium Falcon? It’s apparently a lot. Those useless bombers are all hollow too. Remember that ugly rectangular ship that Leia flies in TFA? Lots of space. You don’t even need to transport everyone, because all the pilots have their own personal fighters. Also, if Leia could call Holdo for help, why didn’t she use that same method to contact her alleged allies in the outer rim? Responding to these types of argument point-by-point is, well, pointless. If you’re looking at the scenes where everyone’s back at base, hugging and browsing maps, etc. - while the enemy forces are quickly closing in - and you see nothing odd about that behaviour, something is wrong with your methodology.
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Feb 23, 2020 23:22
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Ferrinus posted:I'm just swinging by here to post this because it reminded me of all of our droid personhood arguments: Harry Potter is a disease
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Feb 24, 2020 21:42
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I don't find it odd that people would take some moments to celebrate a victory and mourn the passing of friends and loved ones. I think I'll leave it at that. E: That probably comes across petulant, and I don't mean it that way. I just don't want to keep going back and forth, and that's a good example of how far apart we are in our readings. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Feb 25, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 22:36
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This just popped up a little over an hour before the official Project Luminous announcement. The description of the books if it gets taken down: ABOUT DEL REY LUMINOUS PROJECT The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. Until. . . . Aug 25, 2020/
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Feb 25, 2020 02:36
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. Until. . . . Star Wars Episode X: The Force Goes Back to Sleep
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Feb 25, 2020 03:08
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PeterWeller posted:I don't find it odd that people would take some moments to celebrate a victory and mourn the passing of friends and loved ones. I think I'll leave it at that. I feel that way about the end of TLJ really. Everyone complains that it's tonally dissonant to have the characters smiling and laughing after their ordeal, but I saw it like "the ordeal is over, and they're relieved that they survived". Obviously this is just a breather before they get back to the hard work of resisting tyranny (hence Rey bringing the mood back down with "how do we build a rebellion from this?") but for this little while they're safe
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Feb 25, 2020 03:26
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Here are the Project Luminous details. All literary and comics so far, but could grow into something more:
https://twitter.com/StarWarsExplain/status/1232154950999756801?s=20 https://twitter.com/StarWarsExplain/status/1232155570624286723?s=20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCat5fXRyyU
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Feb 25, 2020 05:34
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420 get high republic errday.
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Feb 25, 2020 11:54
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Bringing Ian McCaig back to do more concept art is cool at least
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Feb 25, 2020 12:26
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"Space Vikings out of nowhere" sounds like a slight variation of everything I've called the worst idea in Star Wars history.
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Feb 25, 2020 15:43
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They don't know where the vikings are coming from, so they go on a macguffin quest to find sith wayf-uh, poo poo, uh, a hyperbeacon tracemaster.
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Feb 25, 2020 15:46
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quote:We’re going to see "The Great Disaster". Something terrible is going to happen at the opening of the novel. I bet it involves Yoda
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Feb 25, 2020 15:52
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Halloween Jack posted:"Space Vikings out of nowhere" sounds like a slight variation of everything I've called the worst idea in Star Wars history. It gets a few points for being at least slightly different than yet another iteration of Jedi vs. Sith.
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Feb 25, 2020 16:06
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Everyone posted:It gets a few points for being at least slightly different than yet another iteration of Jedi vs. Sith. smh that you don't think they're gonna turn out to be some kind of secret sith plot
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Feb 25, 2020 16:24
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They’re going to be Sith in slightly different costumes and you know it.
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Feb 25, 2020 16:31
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Can't wait to learn about the adventures of the Jedi border patrol defending the golden age against freaks and sickos.
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Feb 25, 2020 17:15
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If Disney tells the story of how the Old Republic came to be in the state that it's in at the beginning of the prequel trilogy, it is absolutely going to be about how liberal democracy was peachy until this dastardly
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Feb 25, 2020 17:29
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