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I found it funny that they sort of admitted they’d hosed up with that line in season 2 about Klingons deciding to grow their hair again after the war.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:53
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I can understand wanting to put your own stamp on something and update what you see as a dated look, but man they completely loving whiffed when it came to that Klingon redesign. Nothing about it works in the slightest. I mean L’Rell is practically loving blue and it looks so goddamn weird when every other Klingon we’ve seen prior has had a normal human-ish skin tone.
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Apr 6, 2020 03:59
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Timeless Appeal posted:I mean the Klingons were always kind of Mongolians weren't they? I thought the orientalism was always there. That doesn't mean you should turn it up to 11... And yes, they're speaking the Klingon language created by Okrand. Supposedly, they're actually speaking it with greater accuracy than most TNG or DS9 Klingons - a lot of the earlier shows didn't pay much attention to Klingon grammar when translating lines and phrases. I'd argue that, while it's praisworthy that they put the extra effort into it, it may have just put extra pressure on the actors to get the pronunciation perfect leading to the awkward unnatural delivery.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:01
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I don’t think it’s a matter of the actors not trying as it is that everyone’s got a bad case of the Vito Corleones going on due to the loving hilariously over the top facial appliances. Lt. boyfriend certainly did a lot better speaking it when he wasn’t talking through eight pounds of latex.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:09
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I can understand wanting to put your own stamp on something and update what you see as a dated look, but man they completely loving whiffed when it came to that Klingon redesign. Nothing about it works in the slightest. I kinda figured the Grey Klingons were the only way you could have white actors play Klingons anymore without it being blackface. There is no way you could get away with Christopher Lloyd or J G Hertzler putting on brown skin tone nowadays.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:38
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Astroman posted:I kinda figured the Grey Klingons were the only way you could have white actors play Klingons anymore without it being blackface. There is no way you could get away with Christopher Lloyd or J G Hertzler putting on brown skin tone nowadays. That’s fair, I hadn’t thought of that. I still think some of them, like L’Rell or Kol, are too bluish-purple and it looks off compared to previous Klingons. Just make them all grey if that’s the intent.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:39
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Didn't they have some straight up caucasian Klingons occassionally? Christopher Plummer and the rest from TUC?
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Apr 6, 2020 04:42
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Cynic Jester posted:Brain damage is a hell of a drug. Please tell me you mean the first season and not the entire thing. Everything except for "Exposé," which I've never seen and never will. Even the one about Jack's loving tattoos. 
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Apr 6, 2020 04:47
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Didn't they have some straight up caucasian Klingons occassionally? Christopher Plummer and the rest from TUC? Martok, Chang, and Christopher Lloyd were probably the lightest skin Klingons we’d seen, but they still had beige-tan skin-tone makeup on.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:48
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 So like what's the conversion factor for pantone to racism. Calling this blackface involves some heuristics spitting out weird conclusions. Is this makeup darker than Herzler's natural skin tone? Yes. Is this white actor portraying a non-white character? I don't think so. There's pretty clearly a wide range of Klingon skin tones. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 04:53
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Yeah, white Klingons tend to have a ruddy complexion but very much don't have a skin tone that would look out of place on white people.
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Apr 6, 2020 04:58
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The Klingon Language in Discovery isn't garbled by prosthetics. (You can see this by how L'rell was able to speak perfect English in his scene with Lorca in Choose Your Pain, and later on that season.) That's how it's sound according to the actual developed language, with some extra digital effects added. It feels like they speak slowly because tlhIngan Hol is pretty dense in terms of meanings/syllable. In order to keep pace with the subtitles, they generally keep a slower pace.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:10
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You can invent any fictional reason or production reason for it but it still sounds halting and awkward.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:22
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That's literally the language. It's supposed to sound halting and awkward. https://www.kli.org/about-klingon/sounds-of-klingon/ quote:The sounds of Klingon individually occur in existing Terran languages, but no single language uses the entire collection. Paramount wanted the language to be gutteral and harsh, and Okrand wanted it to be unusual, so he selected sounds that combined in ways not typically found in other languages (e.g. a retroflex D and a dental t, but no retroflex T or dental d) If you want to read more about it in Discovery. https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/72g6dt/is_the_klingon_language_in_stdiscovery_the_same/
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Apr 6, 2020 05:34
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Astroman posted:I kinda figured the Grey Klingons were the only way you could have white actors play Klingons anymore without it being blackface. There is no way you could get away with Christopher Lloyd or J G Hertzler putting on brown skin tone nowadays.
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Apr 6, 2020 05:37
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xerxus posted:That's literally the language. It's supposed to sound halting and awkward. Well that's stupid. If somehow that was Okrand's Intention that it was a bad idea. Previous productions never felt bound by this idea that Klingon should sound halting and awkward. I'm skeptical of this idea especially since the quote you dug up to defend it doesn't contain it at all. Maybe you could find a quote from the red it thread?
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Apr 6, 2020 05:44
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Arglebargle III posted:Well that's stupid. If somehow that was Okrand's Intention that it was a bad idea. Previous productions never felt bound by this idea that Klingon should sound halting and awkward. I'm skeptical of this idea especially since the quote you dug up to defend it doesn't contain it at all. Maybe you could find a quote from the red it thread? I got the wrong thread. I'm not a Klingon Language expert, so I'll defer to people who have spent thousands of hours learning it. And they all pretty much say it's the most accurate portrayal of the language in the franchise. https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/72ed54/speakers_of_klingon_how_correct_is_the_language/dni5nmt?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x quote:gloubenterder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Did-eVQDc&t=896s xerxus fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 05:53
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It is kind of weird to think about a fictional TV language being spoken inauthentically for forty years.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:06
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I will say, I do like the unintentional implication that regular Klingons speak like regular people, but T'Kuvma and his cult speak in this obsessively formal dialect that's technically more 'correct' but sounds awkward as hell.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:42
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Picard season 2 should be an unrelated to the normal universe story about Mirror Picard.
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Apr 6, 2020 07:40
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I'd rather Klingon be random gibberish than sound terrible, taking the viewer out of the story.
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Apr 6, 2020 08:24
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Timeless Appeal posted:I mean the Klingons were always kind of Mongolians weren't they? I thought the orientalism was always there. But they'd moved away from it generally. From a more unique alien look in the movies/TNG, to a more Viking/Native/monomyth-warrior style culture in TNG/DS9. If you're going to then re-imagine the Klingons again and the thing you think you need to hold on to is their evil otherness, I don't think that says anything good.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:40
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:But they'd moved away from it generally. From a more unique alien look in the movies/TNG, to a more Viking/Native/monomyth-warrior style culture in TNG/DS9. If you're going to then re-imagine the Klingons again and the thing you think you need to hold on to is their evil otherness, I don't think that says anything good. They weren't evil. They were intensely distrustful of the federation and politically fractured. Paranoid and vulnerable one of them decided it was time to preempt the 'invaders'. You constantly interpret disco in the worst light. This is all subjective but understand that not everyone shares your views or agenda. It's not a 'fact' that discovery reduced klingons to an 'evil otherness'.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:17
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Regarde Aduck posted:They weren't evil. Right. They're not evil, they're just...Al-Queda. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:26
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Oh does everyone need to pre-empt every post with a big flashing "in my opinion" alert or is it maybe fair to assume that's blindingly obvious from context? Also lol, the Klingons weren't "vulnerable". They'd had basically no contact in the last hundred years, one zealot idiot deliberately lured and provoked a confrontation with Starfleet with the express intention of manufacturing a war the rest of the Empire wasn't interested in. The vague justification of "losing their Klingon-ness" to the Federation wasn't developed at all and we saw little to no evidence of any real contrasts, division or general decay of their influence and power. But the Federation had nothing to do with it at all, again due to the lack of contact in a century. And T'kuvma unites the Empire under his leadership because...? He pre-emptively attacked a weaker opponent that anyone else could have also attacked but didn't bother with. We get speeches from Sarek about how only a great leader with a "profound cause" could unite the houses, but apparently skyping everyone and saying "hey follow me now" is all it takes. What even made T'kuvma substantially different from the rest of the houses? Who knows, we don't get to see that. Burnham's actions were also inconsequential to the start of the war and the entire season is built from a rotten premise. The whole notion of making a matryr of T'kuvma also falls over since it was the insidious message of "we come in peace" they were supposedly reacting to as destructive to Klingon ideals. Then T'kuvma, the only Klingon with any actual motivation (assumed motivation, it's not actually developed) is killed off straight away and the sole remaining Klingon with any connection (Voq) also disappears for the rest of the season only to be revealed as Ash the whole time in a ridiculous twist that accomplished nothing. So if someone wants to describe the Klingons of Disco season 1 as a vague, evil "other" well I can't really fault them there. They were generic villains.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:58
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Lizard Combatant posted:Burnham's actions were also inconsequential to the start of the war and the entire season is built from a rotten premise. This also gets missed a lot, I think. Whether we're supposed to see her as doing the right thing or the wrong thing in the premier, the reality is we're shown what she's doing is inconsequential. Nor is it particularly unique from the actions of other Starfleet officers, like her Captain who decides strapping bombs to the bodies of the dead is a clever plan.
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Apr 6, 2020 14:09
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You'd think a hothead idiot attacking the Federation unprovoked and (despite thoroughly outgunning them) getting merked in a daring raid would have endeared the Federation more to the Klingons. What if Voq and the rest of the followers were then engaged in an unsanctioned war for the rest of the season, trying to reclaim their lost honour? Causing division in the Empire (that we'd actually get to see) as their success draws support from lesser households, maybe?
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Apr 6, 2020 14:24
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Cojawfee posted:I rewatched with that torrent that recuts the show to put everything in chronological order. This sounds like a mess. The flashbacks are always designed to be connected to the episode they're presented in.
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Apr 6, 2020 15:14
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Lizard Combatant posted:You'd think a hothead idiot attacking the Federation unprovoked and (despite thoroughly outgunning them) getting merked in a daring raid would have endeared the Federation more to the Klingons. What if Voq and the rest of the followers were then engaged in an unsanctioned war for the rest of the season, trying to reclaim their lost honour? Causing division in the Empire (that we'd actually get to see) as their success draws support from lesser households, maybe? In the pre-Discovery TNG-era Star Trek, I completely agree. Klingons know what Starfleet is about, and they know how Starfleet would react to things. T'Kumva acted the way Romulans would act, and I think you're exactly right that the mainline Klingons would laugh about it, invite Burnham to have a drink with them, scream over her captain's body, and fly off. TOS Klingons weren't all "today is a good day to die," but more "I might not like you, but let's work together to escape and worry about the rest later" like Kang, or being sneaky like Kor or Koloth, getting people to pretend to be human to poison grain, or take advantage of weaker civilizations.
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Apr 6, 2020 15:44
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MichiganCubbie posted:In the pre-Discovery TNG-era Star Trek, I completely agree. Klingons know what Starfleet is about, and they know how Starfleet would react to things. T'Kumva acted the way Romulans would act, and I think you're exactly right that the mainline Klingons would laugh about it, invite Burnham to have a drink with them, scream over her captain's body, and fly off. TOS Klingons are Russians, and Discovery Klingons are Muslims and T'Kuvma is ISIS/Al-Baghdadi. Aside from breaking people when they try to rationalises why the themes in their stories are so different, this is part of why Discovery's resolution of 'they solution to the Klingon problem is to keep them permanently threatened with nuclear annihilation' is so problematic.
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Apr 6, 2020 16:01
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If speaking Klingon in makeup in Discover was so hard, why didn't they just have them also record it in a studio without the makeup and dub over? It'd be extra steps but maybe it would've sounded better.
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Apr 6, 2020 16:05
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Lizard Combatant posted:Burnham's actions were also inconsequential to the start of the war and the entire season is built from a rotten premise. The whole notion of making a matryr of T'kuvma also falls over since it was the insidious message of "we come in peace" they were supposedly reacting to as destructive to Klingon ideals. Yeah, that was all really strange. T'Kuvma starts a war, but not much else. Voq's plan is batshit too.
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Apr 6, 2020 16:20
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thrawn527 posted:This sounds like a mess. The flashbacks are always designed to be connected to the episode they're presented in. It was quite a ride.
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Apr 6, 2020 17:22
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It seems to me that Starfleet was totally ineffective during the war. The Klingons having a cloaking device isn't enough. Obviously post-war Starfleet must have improved their fleet and training. Lessons that were lost by the time of TNG.
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Apr 6, 2020 17:33
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Angry Salami posted:I will say, I do like the unintentional implication that regular Klingons speak like regular people, but T'Kuvma and his cult speak in this obsessively formal dialect that's technically more 'correct' but sounds awkward as hell. I mean, that's just straight up the difference between "Received Pronunciation" aka "The Queens English" aka "BBC English" and how pretty much anyone not an aristocrat actually speaks English in the UK.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:08
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:But they'd moved away from it generally. From a more unique alien look in the movies/TNG, to a more Viking/Native/monomyth-warrior style culture in TNG/DS9. If you're going to then re-imagine the Klingons again and the thing you think you need to hold on to is their evil otherness, I don't think that says anything good. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 18:21
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PostNouveau posted:Yeah, that was all really strange. T'Kuvma starts a war, but not much else. Voq's plan is batshit too. Although it was never at all clear what the plan was with Voq besides to put him on Discovery and then activate his programming so he would I guess try and take over the ship? But he was still only one guy on a ship of hundreds.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:50
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Voq wasn't even smart as a human. Ash was pretty much just Human Ash imprinted over Voq. Whenever Voq took over, he did stupid poo poo like immediately expose himself as a klingon spy. He was dumb as gently caress.
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Apr 6, 2020 20:03
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Cojawfee posted:Voq wasn't even smart as a human. Ash was pretty much just Human Ash imprinted over Voq. Whenever Voq took over, he did stupid poo poo like immediately expose himself as a klingon spy. He was dumb as gently caress.
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Apr 6, 2020 21:59
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FlamingLiberal posted:So of course he gets put in charge of S31 When did this happen?
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Apr 6, 2020 22:01
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