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DaveSauce posted:Interesting, didn't know they'd be required. As far as insurance is concerned, maybe damage from power surges can be claimed? Or maybe the thought is that surge-damaged equipment might be a fire hazard? Yeah industrial safety controls are overwhelmingly dual-redundant normally-closed contact-and-coil relay setups so I could see potential for contact welding being one of the likeliest failure modes shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 23:54
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angryrobots posted:Hubis you came here to ask a question and now you're the expert! Put him in the OP! Well I entered the thread with a particularly boneheaded "Previous Owner"-level plan to just run a wire into my attic and bond it to a nearby metal box, so I figured I had to atone somewhat  BTW, one thing I ran across that you might know: if I am bonding a secondary ground rod to the main grounding point via a 6ga wire, it sounds like I need to add additional grounding rods along the way. I think I saw the rule of "twice the grounding rod length" (so every 16' for an 8' rod). I assume this is to help provide dispersion and ensure the conductor itself stays at zero potential along the way and doesn't become energize in the event of a fault?
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Apr 18, 2020 15:41
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That's a "why" question more suited for an engineer, but I think that's exactly right. When it comes to creating an equipotential zone, you want as many connection points as reasonably possible. While it will "take all paths", the majority of the current will travel along the path of least impedance. If your bonding ground conductor has to travel say around a corner of the structure and some distance, (some of) the massive electrical energy may find a easier path via cutting the corner through the structure (for example). Re: home surge protection, even a regular old ground rod properly connected at the service entrance is actually very effective! As was stated earlier, most lightning strikes are not direct hits. I have gone on several service calls where consumers complained about about losing electronics during thunderstorms, and found their service ground rod missing/insufficient or the connector loose/corroded. And when that's ok, often I will find that the cable or telephone services are not connected to ground - in some cases finding blatant evidence that the lightning entered via one of those utilities. The POCO generally gets the blame because lighting=electricity so it must be their fault right? But lightning doesn't give AF how it gets on a conductor and into a structure.   
angryrobots fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 16:48
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Hi, 3 outlets in my garage are dead because of a surge and I assume they are all downstream of the same breaker. One of them has line and load cables going, one of them is clearly terminal, and the third has connectors with pigtails for both the neutral and hot lines, but the ground wire is just out in a connector and going back to the wall, no pigtail. The house was built in 1971 I tried replacing the terminal outlet with a GFCI, but after reading more online I finally got the point of the line and load concept and why it was only in one of the outlets, the idea that that one should protect the others downstream. Anyway, the one with line and load is not GFCI, so does that just mean something internal in that outlet is busted, and once I replace it I can at least test/use that one until I can get some copper wire to pigtail my midstream outlet? Also, can I safely assume gauge 8 wire will be fine?
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Apr 20, 2020 02:24
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The previous owner did this. Is it allowed? EDIT - CLARIFICATION - They installed a gable fan in the attic and did not want to run a new wire A history: 1. House built with switched wall outlet. 2. Ceiling fan installed, switched wall outlet set to permanently on. 3. Gable fan installed. Madness. The white wire going through the switch box in the same 14/2 cable as the switched black to the attic gable fan is the hot wire for the bedroom fan. The 14/3 coming from the fan switch has the black is always hot so that it can power a formerly switched wall outlet. Everything is bundled together in a junction box in the attic. I guess it technically makes sense and works, but I really don't like that a white is being used for hot. What is the best way to fix this? Run an additional wire? Mark the white wire for the fan and close it up and forget about it? Complicating things: I wanted to get rid of this gable fan and install a whole house fan and use that switch and wiring. The whole house fan requires a neutral that's connected to the timer switch, and this is a big mess. I guess I'm going to have to run a few new wires or so. Edit - gently caress it, I'm paying for the wireless remote kit. Only need constant power to the whole house fan itself, won't need to sort out this mess. Edit Edit- I'd have to pull two new wires and redo everything so it makes sense to use my hardwired switched I got with the whole house fan kit. It really bothers me that they did this nonsense so they wouldn't have to pull a wire from the attic straight down a wall. Like honestly its the easiest wire pull in the history of electricity. 
FogHelmut fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 03:21
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:When we lost a neutral at the pole, it fried a fistful of TVs in the house. The claim went to the insurance company, who called the power company, who verified it was their problem. The insurance company then replaced the TVs, and according to the agent, the power company paid them back. Ages ago I had a very close lightning strike - bad enough that my microwave got fried, every surge protector in the apartment got fried, and most of the circuit breakers tripped (every surge protector let out the magic smoke, the breakers would immediately trip again until I removed the surge protectors). PC survived, DSL modem wasn't so lucky (guessing it came in on the phone line as well as power). Router survived, but the ethernet port on my PC didn't (threw in a PCI network card). There was magic smoke lingering when I got home. Interestingly, both of my TVs survived, even though they were hooked up to cable. It was an apartment-run cable network. Lost a lot of channels on it until they replaced some equipment on their side (in a little shed a few buildings away). That's the second time I've lost an ethernet port to lightning. Unfortunately the last time it happened, the PC was complaining that the network adapter had quit responding... when I rebooted it, that was it. It never booted again. CPU, RAM, everything else was fine, I think the POST was just failing because it couldn't find the network chip. I'm still using most of the components from that build, 2 years later.
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Apr 20, 2020 16:27
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New dumb poo poo I've found in the house. We had this hanging microwave cabinet that was ugly so we opted to remove it. The previous owners did a lovely outlet install using a metal box and piece of metal conduit just shoved up into the ceiling. I flipped the breaker and removed the poo poo and clipped off the outlet but I need to deal with this wire. I do not want to cut into the ceiling at this time. We are uncertain of how extensive our kitchen remodel will be so for now I want to terminate this wire and just push it into the ceiling where it may site for a few months or longer if need be. For the moment I taped it off but should I clip it open and put a wire nut on each individual wire before I stick it up through that hole? 
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Apr 20, 2020 18:10
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Rhyno posted:I do not want to cut into the ceiling at this time. We are uncertain of how extensive our kitchen remodel will be so for now I want to terminate this wire and just push it into the ceiling where it may site for a few months or longer if need be. For the moment I taped it off but should I clip it open and put a wire nut on each individual wire before I stick it up through that hole? It's you, and it's temporary, and you know it's there. Safest is a wire nut over the hot wire, next safest is electrical tape separating the hot and neutral, what you've got going on there is probably fine for a couple of months. Label the breaker, too Realistically, I've seen Romex just cut flush and shoved into wall cavities for decades. The electricity isn't gonna come leaking out, and until the wires touch, nothing happens. Once you start poking in that hole with a borescope, though, stuff gets interesting FAST.
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Apr 20, 2020 18:48
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Ran into an issue with my temporary home office/basement. Three consecutive outlets no longer work and I'm curious what I can test/try before trying to get an electrician. Here's the details. -whatever happened occurred over the weekend, the only things plugged in the a lamp and a laptop. No apparent damage to any of the outlets I can see. -no circuits have been tripped. -the first outlet shares a box with a switch and that's working fine. -no voltage going to the first outlet (used a simple voltage tester). I ordered a multimeter to test the outlets better. Any other suggestions on possible causes/troubleshooting? Thanks in advance.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:08
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So from a bit of googling, it looks like the conductor insulation on 12 AWG wire is 19 mils thick, so that's a 0.038" gap between hot & neutral on ungrounded 12/2, and probably a bit less between hot & ground on 12/2 w/ G due to the paper sheathe the ground being thinner (I'm guessing). The gap is probably less in practice since wire cutters tend to squish the conductors a bit and they would dovetail out towards the tips. Even in an ideal situation I wouldn't want to risk an energized ground or an arc, I'd strip back some of the outer sheath and tape up the individual conductors if wire nuts aren't an option. Nevets fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 19:19
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:It's you, and it's temporary, and you know it's there. Safest is a wire nut over the hot wire, next safest is electrical tape separating the hot and neutral, what you've got going on there is probably fine for a couple of months. Label the breaker, too Excellent, I'll wire nut it and wrap it up just to be safe.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:24
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lifts cats over head posted:Ran into an issue with my temporary home office/basement. Three consecutive outlets no longer work and I'm curious what I can test/try before trying to get an electrician. Quick things to check: Could there be a subpanel you don't know about / didn't think of feeding these basement outlets? Have you checked for a tripped GFCI in the basement hidden behind shelves, appliances, etc? Have you checked for a tripped GFCI in a different part of the house that for no logical reason is supplying these outlets? If it's none of that then I'd guess a wire came loose on one of the outlets. To safely figure that out you'd need to make sure all the circuits going to the outlet's box are switched off (using a non-contact voltage detector and not just trusting the panel labels) and then open it up. It may even be an upstream outlet that came loose, but from the load side so that outlet is still working.
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Apr 20, 2020 19:33
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Nevets posted:So from a bit of googling, it looks like the conductor insulation on 12 AWG wire is 19 mils thick, so that's a 0.038" gap between hot & neutral on ungrounded 12/2, and probably a bit less between hot & ground on 12/2 w/ G due to the paper sheathe the ground being thinner (I'm guessing). From literally looking at 12/2 and 14/2 NM-B cable in my hand, it'll be fine. fake edit: you can also cut the end (with a normal pair of lineman's pliers) so that you've got TONS of room.
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Apr 20, 2020 20:44
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Nevets posted:Quick things to check: Thanks for the suggestions, no GFCI and no sub panel. I did remember I had an outlet tester and it indicates an open hot. No idea where though.
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Apr 21, 2020 01:01
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Is there a good book to read about common homeowner electrical BS?
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Apr 21, 2020 03:54
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I've got an old house (circa 1880) and unsurprisingly, none of the outlets are up to code. The only thing in the receptacle box is two good ol' American wires. It would be great if I could install three-prong receptacles, but that's not exactly kosher with only two wires. I did some research about a year ago, and found that I could install an AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker, which would then support the three-prong receptacles. Before I do this, I want to verify that's correct. My question then, to specify: if I install this breaker (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LN74OO2/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_5?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&th=1) in my breaker box, can I then install these receptacles (https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-T532...87483714&sr=8-2) in electrical boxes that only have two wires?
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Apr 21, 2020 16:45
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I think so but you have to label it as ungrounded GFCI
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Apr 21, 2020 16:58
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You'd need to do this per circuit, so like for the kitchen breaker you can put in a GFCI breaker, then you can put 3 prongs in the kitchen, and will need to put the no equipment ground sticker on them. You can't put 3 prongs in the living-room when you replace the kitchen breaker. Allow this to be confirmed by someone else so I don't Dunning Kreuger myself here: The Cheaper option is to put a GFCI on the "start" of each branch and 3 prongs on the rest of them. Buy like 10 GFCI outlets and wall plates for your house Buy a non-contact tester Kill the breaker for the room you want to work on Use the NC tester to verify outlets do not have power Pull out your "Best guess plug as the start of the room" and disconnect the wires. If you can't figure out which ones are Line and which ones are load you can use make sure your wires are far apart and power the circuit back on and use the NC tester to see which hot is still powered.. you can also do this and verify which outlets that circuit feed.. To be extra safe you can cover the bare ends with a wire nut or quick wrap of tape. Once you've done that.. you can now replace those 2 prongs with 3 prongs. This can be done for $5-$10 per line instead of $50 tater_salad fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 17:16
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tater_salad posted:You'd need to do this per circuit, so like for the kitchen breaker you can put in a GFCI breaker, then you can put 3 prongs in the kitchen, and will need to put the no equipment ground sticker on them. Oh yeah, I remember that as a suggestion. Can you wire a GFCI receptacle into an electrical box with only two wires though?
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Apr 21, 2020 17:33
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yes, you can put a GFCI in with hot and neutral. I've done this for a previous home I owned, and am working on the 2 prong outlets in my new home. I'm waiting for a new Non contact tester (cant find mine) to do the rest because It's a pain in the dick to figure out the line vs load in some of my boxes.
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Apr 21, 2020 17:38
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The Wonder Weapon posted:Oh yeah, I remember that as a suggestion. Can you wire a GFCI receptacle into an electrical box with only two wires though? Yes, providing it is properly labeled as having no equipment ground. Downstream 3 prongs must be labeled GFCI protected/no equipment ground. There should be stickers for this in the box with the GFCI outlet you buy.
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Apr 21, 2020 17:45
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Huh, interesting. Maybe I'll give that a shot instead then. Thanks guys. (I also might 3d print receptacle covers labeled "UNGROUNDED" because that will look better than the stickers.)
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Apr 21, 2020 17:52
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Isn't the one disadvantage of this the fact that he won't have AFCI protection for potential fires?
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Apr 21, 2020 18:02
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KKKLIP ART posted:Is there a good book to read about common homeowner electrical BS? https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/097929455X/ This is more of a fundamentals book, and this thread recommended it to me ages ago. It was useful but so was just reading the this thread as a stream of consciousness. I would buy it used.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:27
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Blindeye posted:Isn't the one disadvantage of this the fact that he won't have AFCI protection for potential fires? That is a downside, especially if the wiring is knob and tube which is notorious for having flying splices inside walls and ceilings which can come loose and arc as the asphalt insulation degrades. You would need a dual-function AFCI/GFCI at the panel for that. (And also ideally, an inline fuse at like 10A since lots of knob and tube is #16 wire.) Also none of that is kosher since the official rule is more or less "if you touch knob and tube take it out" but it'll at least reduce the chance of it burning your entire house down.
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Apr 21, 2020 20:28
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KKKLIP ART posted:Is there a good book to read about common homeowner electrical BS? https://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Complete-Wiring-Updated-ebook/dp/B07939DLRQ/ref=sr_1_1 I have this book's 3rd ed. I see it all the time at the Big Box stores, and thumb through it. It keeps getting updated, and the pictures are amazingly clear.
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Apr 21, 2020 20:34
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corgski posted:That is a downside, especially if the wiring is knob and tube which is notorious for having flying splices inside walls and ceilings which can come loose and arc as the asphalt insulation degrades. You would need a dual-function AFCI/GFCI at the panel for that. (And also ideally, an inline fuse at like 10A since lots of knob and tube is #16 wire.) It is knob and tube, yes. The breaker box was replaced relatively recently, but the wiring in the walls sure wasn't. Should I go with the AFCI/GFCI breaker instead of just the GFCI outlet then? You're supposed to replace wires between switches and light fixtures if you work on them? How the hell do you do that without ripping the walls apart every time?
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Apr 21, 2020 23:22
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The Wonder Weapon posted:It is knob and tube, yes. The breaker box was replaced relatively recently, but the wiring in the walls sure wasn't. How do you even have homeowners insurance?
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Apr 21, 2020 23:56
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Motronic posted:How do you even have homeowners insurance? My details could be off. The actual knobs and tubes no longer are connected (at least none of the ones visible in the basement, I've no clue what's hiding behind the walls). The physical wires that I see when I open up my light switches is sure old though.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:37
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The Wonder Weapon posted:You're supposed to replace wires between switches and light fixtures if you work on them? How the hell do you do that without ripping the walls apart every time? If you modify a branch circuit you're required to bring it up to code. Usually it's not that big of a deal because we've been using MC and NM cable for close to 90 years now, both of which are still explicitly permitted in current code. If you have knob and tube it can require complete replacement because the insulation on knob and tube is almost guaranteed to be degraded to the point of being a hazard at this point. Ultimately it's up to your local inspector, there's no rule explicitly disallowing knob and tube but plenty that implicitly disallow it.
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Apr 22, 2020 01:11
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corgski posted:If you modify a branch circuit you're required to bring it up to code. Usually it's not that big of a deal because we've been using MC and NM cable for close to 90 years now, both of which are still explicitly permitted in current code. If you have knob and tube it can require complete replacement because the insulation on knob and tube is almost guaranteed to be degraded to the point of being a hazard at this point. The knob-and-tube in the barns and houses I rewired in Virginia had a little bit of something rubberized around splices, but nothing else. There wasn't a speck of insulation covering those wires. From what we could gather, they were run as bare copper conductors all the way to the fixture boxes, where they'd get spliced to something insulated.
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Apr 22, 2020 01:34
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What I usually encounter here in PA is wrapped in tarred cloth along the entire length, although at this point the tar is so brittle and the cloth so rotten that it falls off if you look at it.
corgski fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Apr 22, 2020 |
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Apr 22, 2020 01:41
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corgski posted:What I usually encounter here in PA is wrapped in tarred cloth along the entire length, although at this point the tar is so brittle and the cloth so rotten that it falls off if you look at it. Yep. Eastern PA here checking in. That's what I typically see.
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Apr 22, 2020 17:07
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I went looking to see what youtube had to say about replacing knob and tube, and found this guy. Is he right, or is he just tilting at windmills? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZVy2tZ0MrE
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Apr 22, 2020 20:23
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The Wonder Weapon posted:I went looking to see what youtube had to say about replacing knob and tube, and found this guy. Is he right, or is he just tilting at windmills? He's correct about doing correct wiring install. He's also correct in the right way to repair plaster and lath. He's also correct that a lot of people do it cheaply the wrong way (because the right way is expensive).
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Apr 22, 2020 22:21
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The Wonder Weapon posted:I went looking to see what youtube had to say about replacing knob and tube, and found this guy. Is he right, or is he just tilting at windmills? Just speaking as a residential/farm sparky, but if someone talked about plaster that much I'd def tell them to hire a carpenter w/ plaster experience to repair the holes. I'd also run the wire through the joists; a right angle drill or attachment would avoid that looping under bullshit in the vid. I'm the closest thing to a K&T apologist there is. As a general rule the only way to fix it is to replace the wiring between panel and devices, but I have a lot of respect for a flawed wiring system that has lasted as long as it has. The people who installed it (in my personal experience/area) did really excellent work when it comes to soldered splices and over-all workmanship. The danger is with remodels where jokers have open splices to romex/ ungrounded and unlabeled 3-wire outlets/rodent damage from what I've seen, and it is hard to work with if you have to replace devices. edit: also, on first view I thought the guy was being sarcastic about those "precision" openings in the plaster Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 01:32
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The western union splice really is a marvel of simplicity and a useful skill to have for non-electrical purposes
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Apr 23, 2020 01:52
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Blackbeer posted:Just speaking as a residential/farm sparky, but if someone talked about plaster that much I'd def tell them to hire a carpenter w/ plaster experience to repair the holes. I'd also run the wire through the joists; a right angle drill or attachment would avoid that looping under bullshit in the vid. I agree. I work in commercial, mostly upgrading old theatres with new lighting controls, so any finish work is solidly Somebody Else's Problem as far as I'm concerned. I get that in residential people often expect one guy to do it all, but if you care that much about plaster you should be paying someone who specializes in it. Also if you only need a single run of NM you don't even have to drill, you can just knock out the tubes left over from one leg of the decommissioned knob and tube and fish your wire through the existing holes. Notching and going under like that is lazy bullshit and it'll piss off whoever has to do the finish work. It's also dangerous if you're working on newer construction that might have engineered beams in there.
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Apr 23, 2020 01:53
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corgski posted:I agree. I work in commercial, mostly upgrading old theatres with new lighting controls, so any finish work is solidly Somebody Else's Problem as far as I'm concerned. I get that in residential people often expect one guy to do it all, but if you care that much about plaster you should be paying someone who specializes in it. I think my predecessors must have only had 1/2" bits which makes pulling through the old holes a pain, but good point. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 01:58
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Blackbeer posted:I'd also run the wire through the joists; a right angle drill or attachment would avoid that looping under bullshit in the vid. Absolutely. Probably a smaller "precision" hole too and no need for a plate. Blackbeer posted:The danger is with remodels where jokers have open splices to romex/ ungrounded and unlabeled 3-wire outlets/rodent damage from what I've seen, and it is hard to work with if you have to replace devices. That and insulation, although thats a whole other debate.
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Apr 23, 2020 14:03
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