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I think the story is MEANT to be a sort of first-person therapy simulator, in a roundabout way. That's actually one of the main things that I like about it. There's definitely a lot of stuff that can be trimmed down (including the stuff with the Solace pregnancy, that one didn't really add much, although there's some story beats related to it,) and maybe the introspection could be slimmed down, but otherwise I've enjoyed the direction it's been taking.
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May 1, 2020 00:54
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As someone who writes a web serial and has written novels in the past, I've written trauma before and in a way that I hope comes across as nuanced and authentic. And I constantly check with my readers to make sure that they're okay and if I feel like something is going to be particularly horrible, I give warning at the beginning of the chapter so I don't catch someone off their guard. As I write in the style of hope punk, restoration, self-help and healing are major themes in my story despite occasional darkness both implied and shown. And as someone who delves deeply into horror (not sexual violence, but different kinds of horror) to make the bright spots brighter by comparison, this style of writing has its place. The anime Gintama is a lot like this in that it his comedic arcs and serious arcs. One arc it's pretty amusing and light and the next arc you have a dream sequence where a hill of corpses are screaming at you. The juxtaposition between life has its ups and downs and the higher the highs and lower the lows are, the more you appreciate them both so long as they are believable and add to the narrative. If I were to write about the subject, because this is heavy stuff that people deal with, it would be more in the vein of restoration, self-help and healing. That life doesn't end with trauma and that your trauma does not define you, or at least it doesn't if you don't let it. To push away from the violence and chaos and embrace healing and self-care. There's just so much else in the world that I can write about though. I can skip sexual violence and nothing is lost. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 01:07 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 00:58
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Cinara posted:Put me down as another person who bailed at this time, and all your points about the story are exactly why I never bothered to pick it back up. There's so much I really enjoyed about the story but the further it went the more the parts I did not enjoy started becoming more prominent. Yeah, I think my big takeaway is that I want to read something else AW writes. Because while parts of WtC seem a little needlessly self-indulgent (mainly the detailed infodumps), when I bailed I realized that for a surprising amount of the story I'd been engaged because of the very decent writing and pacing, not because of the story itself. I'll definitely be interested to hear how it ends though- like others have said my assumption is that the litRPG thing is either symbolically therapy or very explicitly, like, a space-age therapeutic VR thing, but the sheer level of suffering and nastiness that the protagonist goes through seemingly belies that. Like, when I put it down he was more aware of his issues than before... but he was also way more miserable. And yeah- this is very YMMV because I don't think it's constructive to say that someone straight-up shouldn't write about something, but I'm honestly struggling to remember a single case in fiction where sexual assault accomplished something that a less touchy substitute couldn't have done just as well. Plus it's become such a common cliche when someone wants to punch up the grittiness of their setting that I tend to be really extra-skeptical when it comes up. Also, am I misremembering or did the WtC rape plot happen within, like, a week or two or the big, dumb Amy reveal in Ward? Because I seem to recall two or three completely unrelated serials hitting a jarring and unnecessary rape plot one after the next. Edit because I forgot to mention: WtC is also a really good example of something I see a lot of serial/amateur authors do, I assume partially because Worm popularized first-person perspective in serials and this is a real hazard of a first-person story: you don't need to see angst, unhappiness, or guilt to know it's there. It's a bit tough to thread the needle, but generally speaking people find it exhausting to inhabit the head of a character who's experiencing strong emotions for a prolonged period, and sooner or later that starts to seep into the tone and pacing of the overall story. So Juniper being sad and depressed all the time is a perfectly reasonable reaction to the setting and story, but I think it was a mistake to spend so much time directly experiencing his struggles through his eyes. He had a few really gnarly heart-to-hearts with his buddies, and I think that those scenes alone would do more than enough to establish where his head is at without the accompanying, regular reminders that he's struggling with everything the story puts him through. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 01:21
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Omi no Kami posted:All that having been said, I also think that an editing pass would require way less ripping and tearing than a lot of serials. Cut most of the crunchy mechanical discussion, cut the long, meandering tangents where the author tells us through Juniper about something interesting he read about the other day, reframe the angst and wallowing in introspection bits so we're not playing first-person therapy simulator (which is funny because I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Juniper is doing), cut 80% of the flashbacks to pre-game world, cut the creepy sex poo poo, and cut that bizarrely extended storyline where the deer impregnates that lady. What's left is a much tighter story that would still be pretty engaging and hard to put down. If this was done I'd probably have enjoyed it much more and kept with it to the end.
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May 1, 2020 02:12
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Web Serial Megathread: a jarring and unnecessary rape plot one after the next Mods, do the needful.
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May 1, 2020 08:01
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Web Serial Megathread: a jarring and unnecessary rape plot one after the next I can practically hear like 20 new RRL accounts spinning up even as we speak.
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May 1, 2020 08:50
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Okay just because its been jarringly no talk for the last couple of weeks except rapechat I will now list my top ten favorite web serials with extremely short notices on why I like em. Also maybe almost all of the webserials i've ever read? 1. Into the Mire - Just an extremely well written and enganging story. 2. Pith - I just started reading it like a week or two ago. It might not always be #2 but the story is engaging and different from a lot of other stuff i've read. 3. Mother of Learning - Not at all as well written as the top two but it's finished which is nice and it honestly was a blast reading through it. 4. The Wandering Inn - It's got issues. It's sometimes not even that good. But I keep coming back for the characters. 5. Last Angel - Based on how psyched I am for the third and final (?) arc that's set to drop soonish this is one of my favorites. Maybe a little too dark? 6. He Who Fights With Monsters - I think its dropped from my #1 spot to here in just the last couple of months. Its fun but not as fun as it used to be? 7. Unsong - Another old favourite. Yeah. Apparently the dude is a racist? But its also a really cool story. 8. Practical Guide to Evil - I think a lot of people would put this in the top three but I've never been the biggest fan. 9. Divided Loyalties - A new contestant. I never thought i'd put up a CYOA but the writing is good. And the warhammer fantasy setting is really milked to the last drop. Seems stalled lately due to covid  10. Can't decide. I mean I could put Worm here. Because it's the first web serial I read and its got good bits. I could also put Soumi Warders here because its definitely the first web serial I read like a million years ago, but it was so long ago I can't say for sure its any good. Could also put Zombie Knight here because its a good story. Eh. Oh or maybe Worth the Candle because I still read it occasionally and the world building is fun. poo poo I havn't read but probably will sometime: Katalepsis (tried getting into it but couldn't) Not all Heroes (same)
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May 1, 2020 10:59
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I will probably regret asking this but how does someone get raped by a house?
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May 1, 2020 11:43
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Lot 49 posted:I will probably regret asking this but how does someone get raped by a house? It can project a human avatar
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May 1, 2020 13:11
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I got into web serials through Worm and Pact, so maybe I just have a high tolerance for jank as long as it's doing something interesting. The magic pregnancy arc didn't annoy me too much because it seemed like the story was going somewhere with it. That character had just learned that her entire world was a lie and she was a character created by the dungeon master for a specific purpose. The whole bit leading up to it was crammed with religious references, and a big part of the setting is that there's thousands of hells and no heaven. So I wasn't too surprised when it all built up to a pregnant virgin named Mary deciding to think of the dungeon master as an omnipotent creator and getting really interested in the bible and the idea of a chosen one sent into the world to save people from hell. I think the actual low point of the series is the soul magic arc just before that, and I bet most people drop the series around there. Ghetto Prince fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 14:22
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I think Practical Guide might have the best banter I've ever read.
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May 1, 2020 15:23
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new Daily Grind just mentioned "Lone old Goat" and playing magic the gathering, did you any of you also get highly personalised messages or was it just me? this is like the time Metal Gear Solid 3 knew my first name and favourite genre of music.
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May 1, 2020 20:47
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Lone Goat posted:new Daily Grind just mentioned "Lone old Goat" and playing magic the gathering, did you any of you also get highly personalised messages or was it just me? I saw the same thing you did. Congratulations on having the universe line up in just the right way to make you question reality for a moment.
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May 1, 2020 23:44
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Vateke posted:I think Practical Guide might have the best banter I've ever read. PracGuide's banter is sometimes kinda cringey (the narration also needs to stop saying "without missing a beat"), but it works a little better due to the whole conceit of the setting. For a while the whole dynamic between Cat and the other Rat Company folks kinda felt cheesy and indulgent, but several things made me think it was okay. One is the aforementioned thing with Named having a tendency to form groups of loyal and avid followers. The other is that you see this decrease as Cat's duties take her away from most of the old crew, and you find out the ramifications of these people being non-Named when Ratface is killed off-screen and Nauk and Farrier (the guy who was the leader of the Gallowborne) are uncermoniously killed. Or in Nauk's case has his brain hosed up - I thought it was actually pretty impactful how after Nauk is healed you just don't hear about him again for a really long time. And when you do you find out it's because he became this shell of who he was before and Catherine wasn't comfortable dealing with that situation (which she then regretted when he was actually killed, also off-screen). Another thing that kinda reinforces that the story is self-aware of this is the scene with Hune where Hune basically points out that not all her soldiers are going to be her good friends who are loyal to her as a person, and sort of implies that maybe Catherine should examine why feels the need to make sure everyone is "bound" to her. The same thing comes up during the Killian scene long after they broke up, where Killian calls Catherine out on the whole meeting basically being self-indulgent. Part of Catherine's change over the series is growing beyond this. One unrelated PracGuide thing I've enjoyed from recent chapters is getting some PoV from more heroes, including the most obnoxious ones like Mirror Knight. We're basically being shown in real-time how the things that make these people so stubborn and dumb sometimes are largely a product of their environment, and they're already starting to develop more nuanced opinions about things (and they have their own problems/insecurities).
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May 2, 2020 01:05
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blastron posted:I saw the same thing you did. Congratulations on having the universe line up in just the right way to make you question reality for a moment. this is the second loving time the universe has been screwing with me  
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May 2, 2020 03:55
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Another five chapters of WtC are out! edit: finally get to learn what's up with Doris Finch and her exclusion. Surprise: it's not great. Cicero fucked around with this message at 02:34 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 01:54
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Well, that was not what I expected. Mentally I'm kind of thinking of Doris as Eleanor from The Good Place. A lovely person, not normally cloning yourself to eat them level lovely but still bad, and then being forced into barbarism by the exclusion. But capable of reform, maybe! That the main party is basically 'okay' with cannibalism and other associated horrors continuing is hosed up on some level, but given the situation it's hard to see how it could be fixed, at least anytime soon.
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May 3, 2020 11:37
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I know people here are burned out on Ward but it just ended and I really liked the ending. Felt like sort of a response to how grimdark and isolating Worm was, in that things definitely get gory and dark in Ward but the concept it's built on is recovery, healing, and finding a way forward even in dark and distressing circumstances, building a community and relying on other people and having that pay off rather than spiraling like Taylor did. I really really liked that the ultimate solution to the big scary threat of Titans wasn't actually fighting at all, but tainting the data pool with collaborative action so the entities had to back the gently caress off or lose the information they deemed so important. Given how much Wildbow's previous works rely on escalating violence even when it doesn't make sense for the story, it felt like a real improvement. That said, there's definitely stuff that drags it down. I like that the characters are messy and have cyclic recovery rather than defined arcs, but I can see how that's not enticing to some people, especially given Wildbow is sort of sloppy with worldbuilding in general. There's a lot of things about the initial setting that just don't make sense, and in retrospect I feel like it's set up that way to get a certain mood going (winter is coming/everyone is stressed/we aren't producing our own food/people are still living in tents) when that feels a little... hm, alright, like, even in 'developed' areas you get people who are homeless and needy, but the one resource the Ward setting has in literal near-infinite abundance is space and natural resources, and it doesn't feel like the societal and infrastructure worldbuilding reflects that. Sloppy! Furthermore, and this is kind of a weirdly specific nitpick, I sort of feel like so soon after Scion just sort of boiled the UK off the map in Earth Bet and all that Worm-ending stuff happened, people should probably be more wary of centralizing as much as they did in Ward with the City? As for the actual plot, it meanders, and basically everything ends up being relevant somehow in the end I guess but it kind of feels like a consequence of the web serial format where Wildbow has an idea for a somewhat-tighter story he wants to tell but has to fill space and keep the cliffhangers coming. The ambiguity around the dreaming death is really stupid, literally just a way to build cheap suspense when the story would be improved by the POV character just coming out and explaining. I'm sure there's more times when that's the case but that's the most recent one and I don't really want to reread. EDIT: What I want isn't Worm 3, though, but something more like Twig again with Wildbow sticking to 'maybe we don't need to escalate fight scenes'. The fight scenes were the dumbest part of Twig. Sy is a wimp baby who couldn't punch out a 10 year old. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 17:53 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 17:29
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A superfan of Worm did a really long and rant-y review of Ward: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/gdd7kj/d_monday_request_and_recommendation_thread/fpgvudq I really enjoyed Worm and but just from reading bits of discussion here on Ward it never really interested me, and it kind of sounds like I made the right call there. Or maybe that superfan is insane, but they don't sound insane, just really disappointed in something they'd clearly invested so much of themselves into.
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May 4, 2020 20:31
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PetraCore posted:EDIT: What I want isn't Worm 3, though, but something more like Twig again with Wildbow sticking to 'maybe we don't need to escalate fight scenes'. The fight scenes were the dumbest part of Twig. Sy is a wimp baby who couldn't punch out a 10 year old. The problem with Twig was that it was probably one of his best works, but also the least read. This is Wildbow's job and he has to pay the bills. It's not like he's a published author where he can get advances and where his work makes money for him by selling books off literal or electronic shelves. He needs to keep producing and can't use his backlog to make money. So he can't do what authors and artists need to do sometimes, which is to take a break. It's that break that I think he desperately needs to recharge and think about what he's producing and focus on his craft and the overall quality of his work. Can't really do that if you need to get two updates out a week and they're several thousand words long.
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May 4, 2020 20:45
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He should stop faffing about with publishing Worm on Amazon. He's just being extremely disfunctional about it and releasing a slightly edited super-popular multi-volume series with a few exclusive extra scenes or whatnot each volume would do wonders for his financials.
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May 4, 2020 21:03
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Megazver posted:He should stop faffing about with publishing Worm on Amazon. He's just being extremely disfunctional about it and releasing a slightly edited super-popular multi-volume series with a few exclusive extra scenes or whatnot each volume would do wonders for his financials.
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May 4, 2020 21:13
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Enjoyed the latest Katalepsis chapter. That cult just won't stay down. I'm a bit surprised Heather hasn't figured out yet that the dead hands are what's left of Lilly's brother. I have faith in Tenny. She's a good tentacle ghost and won't hurt us after coming out of her shell.
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May 4, 2020 22:29
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Megazver posted:He should stop faffing about with publishing Worm on Amazon. He's just being extremely disfunctional about it and releasing a slightly edited super-popular multi-volume series with a few exclusive extra scenes or whatnot each volume would do wonders for his financials. Wildbow doesn't want to be an Amazon self-pub author, he wants to be an online to trad pub success story. Unfortunately, he's just as dysfunctional about that, too, and doesn't want to put in what's required to achieve it. Anyway, the most interesting thing he's written in ages is his Ward wrap-up post if only because he sounds about a month or so from a breakdown but he's starting Pact 2 on Tuesday. Does he not have savings? If Wildbow wants to stand any chance of growing as an artist or finding some way of divorcing himself from the fanbase that he gets into weird arguments with so he can truly experiment without wondering if he can pay his bills, then he needs to find some way to stop relying on their charity. For the most part, his fandom is utterly uninterested in his artistic growth or wider success - they just want more Worm because it's the only story of his the majority of them have actually read. I was hoping he'd go with the space opera idea if only because that's what I'd place as being the most out of his comfort zone, but between Twig and Ward I'd say the lesson the ol' Bow learnt was to not try new things and just feed up slop that pays the bills.
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May 4, 2020 22:31
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Wildbow doesn't want to be an Amazon self-pub author, he wants to be an online to trad pub success story. Unfortunately, he's just as dysfunctional about that, too, and doesn't want to put in what's required to achieve it. Yeah, like I said, he's pretty dumb about it. Heck of a blind spot for someone whose entire success story hinged on subverting the traditional model.
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May 4, 2020 22:33
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Oh god, he's doing pact 2? He's not taking a break? Yikes
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May 4, 2020 23:22
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its not pact 2, its a story set in the universe of pact but not narratively connected. also wildbow does not do breaks as far as i can tell hes put out at least 2 chapters a week for 9+ years and is very hard on himself about that requirement
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May 4, 2020 23:25
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Cicero posted:A superfan of Worm did a really long and rant-y review of Ward: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/gdd7kj/d_monday_request_and_recommendation_thread/fpgvudq its a garbage review by the ~rational~ community. ward isnt very good but this review is fuckin awful
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May 4, 2020 23:56
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:
He's getting ~6k/month from Patreon alone. He may just be driven to publish as much as possible. I know Pirateaba seems to be unable to write less then 40k words a week besides the rare break now and then.
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May 5, 2020 00:21
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Cicero posted:A superfan of Worm did a really long and rant-y review of Ward: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/gdd7kj/d_monday_request_and_recommendation_thread/fpgvudq This person is 100% verifiably bugfuck insane.
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May 5, 2020 00:32
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I'm not the biggest fan of Ward so this might be a bit YMMV, but I think almost everything that bugged about Ward also bugged me about the rest of his works. Wildbow's a phenomenally creative guy, but it's really frustrating to see interesting ideas beset by some really serious issues that I really hope he can find the time and headspace to address, but honestly don't think he will. For me, it boils down to a few issues: Business-wise, the dude needs to both grow his community and diversify his revenue sources. From comments he's made I get the impression that he views being a professional author like working in a void: sit in a room, write some words, money comes in. It is amazing that he's done as well with that as he has. At a bare minimum I think he needs to get into the amazon/epub game and start selling merch (every time someone asks on the subreddit about where they can buy a t-shirt or ebook and get told that those don't exist, I cringe for WB's sake). It also wouldn't hurt to grow his community beyond the rational/worm-specific audience, since deriving your primary revenue source from a patreon that relies on 2000-some people with one very narrow, specific interest is terrifying. I also think he needs to get some distance from his fans and give up trying to police the community with all of that weird anti-meme crap, maybe even unplug entirely, but that's also a terrible business idea given his patreon stuff. In terms of technical execution, there are some really core writing and storytelling skills that I really, really wish he would put the time into picking up. Stuff like "If you set something up, it needs to pay off later. For a big moment to land later, it needs to be set up in advance." With Ward in particular I couldn't even begin to articulate what that story was about, because there was no narrative spine- it was just "A happened, then B happened, then C happened" with almost no connective tissue stringing things together. Like, in his debrief (which everyone should read, because it's fascinating) he even straight-up commented: quote:I’d hate to write something where the wordcounts and threads are so trimmed down that a gun that gets a passing mention has to be used, where everything is relevant or discarded. Now, I get what he's saying- it's impossible to plot a serial like you would a novel. As an exercise I once challenged myself to write in the serial format, without editing or rearranging sections later, and gently caress that- it's super hard, and I could never manage it on a long project. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't at least exert a modicum of effort to plan your story structure and figure out how to set up and pay off character arcs and major plot progression. So yeah, at this point who knows- if I had advice for the guy it'd be to take a long-rear end break, strive to get less mired down in the hardcore rational/parahumans community when he gets back, read through a couple of screenwriting books and seek to figure out a more sustainable way to grow his brand and business without being a reddit workaholic dude. But given the nature of the serial space and the fact that major writing problems he had in Worm have only magnified over the years, I'm really worried that the guy is just kinda keep smacking his head into a brick wall until he burns out and storms away out of disgust with the whole thing.
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May 5, 2020 00:50
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i dont think self pub would meaningfully change wildbow's income or community. the only thing that i could see specifically growing his popularity would probably be like writing a litrpg series or xianxia series and posting it on royalroad. if wilidbow wanted to make more money he could just add like literally any incentive to subscribe to his patreon. hes making almost 6k without any incentive structure whatsoever. thats insane. also, fwiw, im like 50/50 that pirateaba doesnt write everything theirself. i literally do not think it is possible to write as much as they do as often as they do for as long of a period as they have.
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May 5, 2020 01:15
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Self-publishing would do a ton for Wildbow, his current fanbase could shoot him way up the Amazon metrics. Release a Worm arc a month to maximize the metrics again and he'd rake it, I think, even in the form it is in now. But I also think Wildbow could turn Worm into a YA series that'd sell really well - it's better than Red Riding or practically any other YA series - but that's require a ton of work. Not to mention dividing his base between Serial Worm and Novel Worm.Sampatrick posted:also, fwiw, im like 50/50 that pirateaba doesnt write everything theirself. i literally do not think it is possible to write as much as they do as often as they do for as long of a period as they have. For whatever it's worth, the web serial community generally believes that they are two or three people.
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May 5, 2020 02:00
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I suppose that's possible, but Pirateaba just being kind of a weirdo who writes a metric shitton would also be far from the weirdest thing on the internet. Their word count is pretty crazy, but aren't there Chinese web novel authors who are similar?
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May 5, 2020 02:03
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Cicero posted:I suppose that's possible, but Pirateaba just being kind of a weirdo who writes a metric shitton would also be far from the weirdest thing on the internet. I haven't read the Wandering Inn, but how much of the chapters are just meaningless nonsense or outright repetition? The Chinese web novel authors that are on the daily release (with each chapter costing money) tend to write chapters like an English teacher would have you write an argument. Saying the same thing over and over and, in a lot of cases, feeling like a find and replace feature was used for "new" arcs. When writing a serial is your primary income putting out a ton of words isn't an issue, but quality does tend to suffer for it. Also some people are just capable of writing endlessly.
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May 5, 2020 02:52
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Maguoob posted:When writing a serial is your primary income putting out a ton of words isn't an issue, but quality does tend to suffer for it. Also some people are just capable of writing endlessly. Some days it comes easy. A lot of days its an uphill slog. Consistently writing a one or two thousand words a day like a lot of serials do is not easy. The crazy amount of words pirateabba puts out would be unbelievable if it weren't so obviously true.
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May 5, 2020 03:02
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Maguoob posted:I haven't read the Wandering Inn, but how much of the chapters are just meaningless nonsense or outright repetition? The Chinese web novel authors that are on the daily release (with each chapter costing money) tend to write chapters like an English teacher would have you write an argument. Saying the same thing over and over and, in a lot of cases, feeling like a find and replace feature was used for "new" arcs. The only thing at all about TWI that's kinda repetitive is cities getting attacked by huge things practically once per arc, but even those all read very differently. It's not really like that stuff at all; Pirateaba is just some kind of savant. Milkfred E. Moore posted:For whatever it's worth, the web serial community generally believes that they are two or three people. I've never heard this, is this something authors have talked about or something else?
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May 5, 2020 03:44
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violent sex idiot posted:its not pact 2, its a story set in the universe of pact but not narratively connected. also wildbow does not do breaks as far as i can tell hes put out at least 2 chapters a week for 9+ years and is very hard on himself about that requirement
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May 5, 2020 04:13
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One recent victim of how hard serials are to keep structured and on-pace is HWFWM, which is a bummer- there are still really great chapters, but there are also a lot of chunks where it honestly feels like the guy just sat down, plowed through 6-10k words over a few hours, then chopped it up into roughly 2-3k chunks and called it good. I get that you can't possibly keep everything tight and well-paced on that kind of schedule, but the first 40-60 chapters were so much tighter than your average RRL drek that it's been a bummer to see it having ups and downs.
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May 5, 2020 05:04
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Poof.
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May 5, 2020 05:50
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