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I wish they’d have hammered against the three oaths more. They might as well not work since every Aes Sedai just skirts the rules to do what they want anyways. Egwene gets how bullshit they are then almost immediately agrees they’re good, girl, you had it right the first time.
Invalid Validation fucked around with this message at 19:10 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 17:39
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Yeah, I really got the impression that the first Aes Sedai to take the oaths were looking for exploitable loopholes about 5 minutes after their skin stopped tingling, and that tradition just kept on for the next several thousand years. Mostly because of interpretations like: "Look, I clearly, as Aes Sedai, know what's best for you but also actually everyone, and it's a shame that you disagree. Now, fun fact, gagging and restraining someone with The Power is actually not using it as a weapon, and also fun fact two, this extremely heavy hairbrush was made by a silversmith and not with The Power, and there is, fact three, absolutely nothing binding me from whipping the absolute poo poo out of you with the brush until you agree that I know what's best and to cooperate fully (also, there's no oath about run-on sentences). Nod once if you understand me." looking at you, Cadsuane from a distance and hopefully safely out of her sight
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May 6, 2020 18:32
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Most also have warders following them around. You know, fanatically loyal, best warriors in the world and not bound by any rules. Lan frequently lies for Moiraine in the early books and has definitely shanked some inconvenient people for her in the past.
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May 6, 2020 19:24
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Tomas was definitely the best warder. Verin is like do something, he rolls his eyes, and goes over to the bartender frightened out of his wits to calm him down with a drink, or something like that.
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May 6, 2020 19:27
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Gawyn was the worst warder.
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May 6, 2020 19:27
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silvergoose posted:Gawyn, the worst. It just rolls off the tongue
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May 6, 2020 19:58
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Lord Awkward posted:Yeah, I really got the impression that the first Aes Sedai to take the oaths were looking for exploitable loopholes about 5 minutes after their skin stopped tingling, and that tradition just kept on for the next several thousand years. Speaking of, how come perrins hammer didn’t violate the oath to not make a weapon?
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May 6, 2020 20:26
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I thought it was enchanted by an Asha'man? It's been a while and that's one of the books I've only read once, but isn't the answer "it totally does"?
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May 6, 2020 20:31
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awesmoe posted:Speaking of, how come perrins hammer didn’t violate the oath to not make a weapon? It could technically be a tool for use in a forge?
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May 6, 2020 20:32
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awesmoe posted:Speaking of, how come perrins hammer didn’t violate the oath to not make a weapon? It literally would, and was done via a circle of ashaman and wise ones. This is exactly the kind of weapon they were banning.
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May 6, 2020 20:37
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Mat Cauthon posted:It could technically be a tool for use in a forge?  Not a sword, after all.
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May 6, 2020 20:40
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I don't remember if Aes Sedai participated in any of the Power-Forging, but the loophole's pretty obvious. The Oath is "never to make a weapon for one man to kill another," and they were forging weapons for the Last Battle against Trolloc hordes.
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May 6, 2020 20:51
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silvergoose posted:It literally would, and was done via a circle of ashaman and wise ones. This is exactly the kind of weapon they were banning. Ooh, so they linked in the wise ones not the aes sedai, that’s what I was misremembering
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May 6, 2020 20:51
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Speaking of the hammer, the whole "axe = weapon" thing always bugged me slightly when axes have plenty of uses as tools. Sure the one Perrin has is a fighting axe but it still doesn't quite fit the aiel sword logic.
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May 6, 2020 21:33
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Gnoman posted:I don't remember if Aes Sedai participated in any of the Power-Forging, but the loophole's pretty obvious. The Oath is "never to make a weapon for one man to kill another," and they were forging weapons for the Last Battle against Trolloc hordes. If a group of Maidens of the Spear ask Aes Sedai for power forged weapons, would agreeing to make some for them violate the oath?
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May 6, 2020 21:43
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bloom posted:Speaking of the hammer, the whole "axe = weapon" thing always bugged me slightly when axes have plenty of uses as tools. Sure the one Perrin has is a fighting axe but it still doesn't quite fit the aiel sword logic. In Perrin's case, it was purely symbolic - was he the simple blacksmith wielding a hammer, or a conquering warlord wielding a battleaxe? He chose to split the difference - a king wielding a warhammer.
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May 6, 2020 21:46
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bloom posted:Speaking of the hammer, the whole "axe = weapon" thing always bugged me slightly when axes have plenty of uses as tools. Sure the one Perrin has is a fighting axe but it still doesn't quite fit the aiel sword logic. The aiel sword logic stemmed from a kid accidentally killing a brute with a spear, so I'm not really sure what you mean.
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May 6, 2020 22:05
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They way they talk about Perrin he must have to walk sideways through a door.
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May 6, 2020 23:08
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Blacksmiths are generally massive yeah. Think top-level rugby player or strongman I guess
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May 7, 2020 00:02
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I'm up to Keille Shaogi's first appearance on my re-read of the books, and I love that Lanfear's lovely thespian skills that only work because she uses them on extremely ignorant rural children is one of those unspoken threads running through the books. "No one will suspect that I, the beautiful Lanfear, am masquerading as Selene, the slightly less beautiful Cairhien noblewoman." *Disguise immediately falls apart when she meets someone who isn't dumb, horny, or Ogier.* "No one will suspect that I, the beautiful Lanfear, am masquerading as Sylvie, the old, ugly serving woman!" *Egwene nods along at the Tairen serving lady who is on a first name basis with Ishamael and refers to the "Great Lord of the Dark" in regular conversation* "No one will suspect that I, the beautiful Lanfear, am masquerading as Keille Shaogi, a fat peddler!" *Everyone is immediately freaked out by the fat lady who speaks, moves, and acts like a sexy seductress.*
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May 7, 2020 03:38
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:"No one will suspect that I, the beautiful Lanfear, am masquerading as Keille Shaogi, a fat peddler!" *Everyone is immediately freaked out by the fat lady who speaks, moves, and acts like a sexy seductress.* I think it's funny because it immediately becomes a joke that only Rand and Lanfear are in on.
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May 7, 2020 03:44
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:I think it's funny because it immediately becomes a joke that only Rand and Lanfear are in on. I think it's funny that everyone starts to think Rand's madness is finally manifesting in paranoia when he looks at the peddler wagons and goes "Welp, that's a loving trap."
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May 7, 2020 03:48
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lanfear: i will masquerade as this supernaturally beautiful noblewoman in a land where people are naturally wary of anything possibly related to channeling, it's foolproof literally anyone with eyes who isn't horny: bruh
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May 7, 2020 03:54
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Lanfear: I will pretend to be an unimaginably attractive lost woman in another dimension that has nothing except monsters roaming around, he’ll never suspect a thing. Rand: Nothin weird about this woman, she must be lost, gotta save her!
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May 7, 2020 04:05
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I'm up to Keille Shaogi's first appearance on my re-read of the books, and I love that Lanfear's lovely thespian skills that only work because she uses them on extremely ignorant rural children is one of those unspoken threads running through the books. "Where are you from?" "Cairhien," said the incredibly tall woman. I didn't really catch before that Rand immediately realized what was going on with her as a peddler until this most recent time through. He hears her speak, and then just immediately starts laughing and tells Mat they're riding with ~eeeeviiil~ now. It's hilarious.
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May 7, 2020 04:42
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Gnoman posted:I don't remember if Aes Sedai participated in any of the Power-Forging, but the loophole's pretty obvious. The Oath is "never to make a weapon for one man to kill another," and they were forging weapons for the Last Battle against Trolloc hordes. "My lords, I have made you this magic Y-shaped spear that you must use together, each of you holding one arm of the Y, or else."
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May 7, 2020 04:44
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Invalid Validation posted:Lanfear: I will pretend to be an unimaginably attractive lost woman in another dimension that has nothing except monsters roaming around, he’ll never suspect a thing. I love how no one ever points out how loving dumb and horny Rand must have been to not question it at the time. Like, or did that all happen off-screen between books 2-3 and thats why Rand was so loving moody?
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May 7, 2020 04:52
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He accepted the fact he'd probably be dead within a year.
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May 7, 2020 05:59
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The Glumslinger posted:I love how no one ever points out how loving dumb and horny Rand must have been to not question it at the time. Rand's friends are just as dumb and horny and inexperienced as he is, Moiraine isn't going to want to alienate him, Lan will follow Moiraine's lead, and nobody else there would just start talking poo poo about the Dragon Reborn.
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May 7, 2020 06:40
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Khizan posted:Rand's friends are just as dumb and horny and inexperienced as he is, Moiraine isn't going to want to alienate him, Lan will follow Moiraine's lead, and nobody else there would just start talking poo poo about the Dragon Reborn. Yeah, he was stuck with Perrin, Min, Loial, Moiraine, Lan and the Sheinar soldiers during that period and the only person who even might have told him he was a dumbass was Min. And she wasn't really on great terms with him yet. Loial was with him during the Selene stuff and didn't really have any objections, Perrin would have done exactly the same thing, Lan probably rolled his eyes behind Rand's back the whole time and Moiraine was already fighting with him about enough other stuff. Zore fucked around with this message at 06:47 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 06:45
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The Glumslinger posted:I love how no one ever points out how loving dumb and horny Rand must have been to not question it at the time. The really funny bit, in retrospect, is that the first person he tells about Selene after she leaves him is Verin, who says something along the lines of "Well, I'd sure like to pick that young lady's brain" and then goes off by herself for a while to entirely lose her loving poo poo, because of course she knows.
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May 7, 2020 10:03
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I don't think I've read the forging of the hammer more than once but the impression I got is that they didn't really know what they were doing or what the final product would be. The Oaths are very easy to poke holes through. If you do not believe that you are lying, you can repeat a lie for instance. If they didn't think they were making a weapon, or really have any idea of what they were participating in, the Oaths wouldn't have bound them. But I don't remember at all if any Aes Sedai were even present.
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May 7, 2020 14:19
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I think an Ashaman was leading the circle at the forging so even if there were Aes Sedai in the circle, it may not count as going against the Oaths since they weren't leading the circle. Especially since there seems to be a lot of wiggle room in what the Aes Sedai believes in what it takes to break an Oath.
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May 7, 2020 14:30
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Eighties ZomCom posted:I think an Ashaman was leading the circle at the forging so even if there were Aes Sedai in the circle, it may not count as going against the Oaths since they weren't leading the circle. I went back and reread the forging of the hammer(Towers of Midnight, ch40) and it was Neald leading Grady and the Wise Ones in a circle, no Aes Sedai involved at all.
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May 7, 2020 15:24
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Yeah I had a strong recollection that he ordered the wise ones to help and they shockingly did so without hesitation.
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May 7, 2020 16:20
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silvergoose posted:Yeah I had a strong recollection that he ordered the wise ones to help and they shockingly did so without hesitation. I think they all realized something big was going down and needed to step to it. I always liked how the Wise Ones are so ready to get their hands dirty and do the needful.
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May 7, 2020 17:26
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How are u posted:I think they all realized something big was going down and needed to step to it. I always liked how the Wise Ones are so ready to get their hands dirty and do the needful. Yeah I meant shockingly to characters who would normally expect wise ones to balk at a man ordering them around. I agree, I like that too.
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May 7, 2020 18:06
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Does anyone have a good family tree handy? I always like tracing the connections between Elayne, Moiraine, Rand, Lan, and so on, but some of the intricacies of House Damodred are beyond me.
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May 7, 2020 21:29
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Vavrek posted:Does anyone have a good family tree handy? I always like tracing the connections between Elayne, Moiraine, Rand, Lan, and so on, but some of the intricacies of House Damodred are beyond me.  Tigraine (Rand's biological mother and daughter-heir of Andor) married Taringail Damodred, nephew of King Laman of Cairhien and had Galad. Later, prophesy said she had to go to the waste, so she abandoned her son and joined the Maidens and eventually joined the Tardaad clan chief Janduin. Tigraine disappearing left Taringail and Andor in a bit of an awkward place, but he married Morgase and helped her succession and she adopted Galad, later having Elayne and Gawyn. Laman chopped down Avedoraldera, the cutting of Avendesora given by the Aiel when his ancestors helped them, so he could make a throne and started the "Aiel War". Tigraine was pregnant with Rand during the fighting and gave birth on Dragonmount when they were sieging the city, eventually found by soldier Tam al'Thor. Laman's death ended the Aiel War, but Taringail was denied the throne of Cairhien because he was married to the Queen of Andor. He plotted to kill her and become the first King, but Thom Merrilin stopped that. Moiraine is half-sister to Taringail as well, being in the royal line of Cairhien (and part of the plot in New Spring is dealing with Laman's death and trying to get her to be the replacement regent) Tigraine also had a brother, Luc Mantear (and Rand's full uncle, who Gitara Moroso encouraged to seek his fame in the Blight. He eventually ran into Isam Mandragoran, Lan's cousin, who with his mother had survived the attack that destroyed Malkier but got captured by Trollocs later and was raised in the blight. Luc and Isam merger somehow into Slayer, of course. So Rand and Elayne (and Gawyn) are third cousins as they had a common great-grandmother Andoran Queen. Rand and Lan aren't related, except that Rand's uncle merged with Lan's cousin. Rand and Galad are half-brothers through their common mother, and Galad and Gawyn are half-brothers through their father. Moiraine is Galad's (half-)aunt because her half-brother is his father, but Rand and Moiraine are not related by blood.
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May 7, 2020 22:05
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And the fact that these people are all related makes the effort Elaida spent on her foretelling entirely fruitless.and pointless.
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May 8, 2020 02:21
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