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If there wasn't a jobber in Florida or Georgia called Jeff Cobb back in the day, there should have been.
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May 24, 2020 23:29
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Didn't he also shittalk Jeff Cobb and War Machine? I remember the Jeff Cobb poo poo talking, how he'll never make it in Japan cause he has no fire.
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May 25, 2020 00:00
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FunMerrania posted:I remember the Jeff Cobb poo poo talking, how he'll never make it in Japan cause he has no fire. And that he smelled
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May 25, 2020 00:24
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He didn't poo poo talk War Machine but pissed them off because as part of his making GBS threads on Cobb, he complained that Cobb would rather "hang out with War Machine" than spend time with Mike's sponsors. Pretty sure War Machine got a T-shirt out if it so they can't be too mad.
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May 25, 2020 00:25
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Cobb has one of the best finishers in the business right now.
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May 25, 2020 00:32
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Elgin has a bad habit of being very hard to work with and also being mediocre so he keeps falling into companies bad enough that he's the best thing they have so he has leverage to behave the way he does
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May 25, 2020 01:27
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Super No Vacancy posted:they re-signed him after that but wouldnt let him work for impact in the west. its probably more that elgin’s relationship with everyone he works for eventually turns sour more than that specific thing in particular they also couldn't use him on western shows after his response to the sexual assault allegations against one of his students plus his own scummy behavior aside made him unbookable. gradually becoming less over as the novelty wore off and his work declined prob didn't help either. iirc someone basically put it as him getting nudged out the door in that that he could 've stayed if he really wanted to but he wasn't going to be receving any kind of a push or g1 spot. i have no idea on the veracity of that part tbh tho Thauros fucked around with this message at 01:42 on May 25, 2020 |
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May 25, 2020 01:39
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Why did Adam Cole, War Machine and Mike Elgin struggle to get over in Japan? And what are some other examples of gaijin not catching on? According to cage match data Adam Cole only wrestled a total of 11 matches in Japan for NJPW, and they were virtually all ROH crossover stuff or Bullet Club multiman tag stuff. The fact he was positioned as a heavyweight when he's clearly 5'8" probably wouldn't help matters. I think War Machine did fine in Japan, but NJPW doesn't care about their tag team divisions so the crowds going to only get so invested in an act when they've wrestling the same 2 or 3 teams every show. FunMerrania posted:I remember the Jeff Cobb poo poo talking, how he'll never make it in Japan cause he has no fire. Elgin's a huge rear end in a top hat, but Cobb's definitely missing something in New Japan. I don't know if it's fire, or just he wrestles at a slower pace than most of the other heavyweights, but his G1 was a real let down for me; which is a shame because I know he's capable of doing a ton of cool stuff.
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May 25, 2020 17:19
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Capn Combustible posted:Elgin's a huge rear end in a top hat I had no idea: https://www.facebook.com/ASAWofficial/videos/the-michael-elgin-piss-on-a-girl-story/780116168854488/
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May 25, 2020 18:47
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the thing i remember most about michael elgin is he had a 5* match with ultimo guerrero in arena mexico and then got mad right after when ppl started leaving the arena while he was cutting a promo in english
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May 25, 2020 20:00
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Smoking Crow posted:the thing i remember most about michael elgin is he had a 5* match with ultimo guerrero in arena mexico and then got mad right after when ppl started leaving the arena while he was cutting a promo in english Big Mike is such a dork and it'd be endearing if, y'know, he wasn't a horrendous human being
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May 25, 2020 20:41
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Red posted:I had no idea: https://www.facebook.com/ASAWofficial/videos/the-michael-elgin-piss-on-a-girl-story/780116168854488/ As for the in-ring stuff: During the very brief period I was talking with him, one thing I was struck by was that he did NOT agree with the consensus that he wrestled like a switch flipped on mentally when he got his shot in NJPW. Being that literally everyone who followed his career felt that going to NJPW was when he really clicked as a worker, that goes to show you that yeah, dude has a really high (and at least somewhat inflated) opinion of his work. I'll never take away that he's a talented worker with surprising adaptability and a knack for exciting matches, but his everything else is just...ugh. Even if some of the drama around him is more complicated than it looks on the surface, he's still revealed himself to be a bit of a gross dude in a myriad of ways. (See: Allie Kat's tweets about him, among other things.)
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May 26, 2020 04:53
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Maybe this is worthy of its own thread (if it isn't one already) but what are the most contentious matches to be awarded five stars by Dave Meltzer? I ask because I recently watched the Summerslam 1994 cage match between Bret and Owen, and while I thought parts of it were entertaining I also thought it was far too long and, as a result, extremely repetitive. I thought their Wrestlemania match was much, much better, which "only" scored ****3/4.
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May 26, 2020 07:15
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Hedgehog Pie posted:Maybe this is worthy of its own thread (if it isn't one already) but what are the most contentious matches to be awarded five stars by Dave Meltzer? I ask because I recently watched the Summerslam 1994 cage match between Bret and Owen, and while I thought parts of it were entertaining I also thought it was far too long and, as a result, extremely repetitive. I thought their Wrestlemania match was much, much better, which "only" scored ****3/4. That cage match was ruined by WWE's stupid escape the cage rules. MitB 2011 is pretty bad for a five star match. 3 stars at most.
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May 26, 2020 07:32
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Capn Combustible posted:According to cage match data Adam Cole only wrestled a total of 11 matches in Japan for NJPW, and they were virtually all ROH crossover stuff or Bullet Club multiman tag stuff. The fact he was positioned as a heavyweight when he's clearly 5'8" probably wouldn't help matters. Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Td2CTuiVY Capn Combustible posted:I think War Machine did fine in Japan, but NJPW doesn't care about their tag team divisions so the crowds going to only get so invested in an act when they've wrestling the same 2 or 3 teams every show. I think both Adam Cole and War Machine suffered a bit in Japan because they were mostly ROH guys and joined thanks to that deal. Cole wasn’t used nearly as much and never really got singles matches, but the one big complaint about the last few years in NJPW is both tag divisions are a major afterthought. Another guy who had similar lack-of-overness was Cody. His matches there may have been high profile to overseas fans, but they were pee breaks in Japan. Cody would’ve been served by doing a G1 at that time, though it’s kinda moot now.
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May 26, 2020 09:36
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I think the WMX ladder match is less good than either of the Bret/Owen matches from that year
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May 26, 2020 09:43
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jesus WEP posted:I think the WMX ladder match is less good than either of the Bret/Owen matches from that year Better than the cage match, maybe not quite as good as the WM match.
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May 26, 2020 09:46
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Capn Combustible posted:According to cage match data Adam Cole only wrestled a total of 11 matches in Japan for NJPW, and they were virtually all ROH crossover stuff or Bullet Club multiman tag stuff. The fact he was positioned as a heavyweight when he's clearly 5'8" probably wouldn't help matters. Cobb's issue is he sells too loving much and his offense works best when hes an unstoppable beast. He needs to learn from Ishii how to sell. Its why Matanza was better as he didnt have to sell. Also he cant run and any match thats been built requiring him to run the ropes is a cruel war crime.
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May 26, 2020 09:54
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Is DDP the oldest person to start wrestling full time while also being successful? Successful meaning they've held major titles and/or gone into a Hall of Fame. He was around for years as a lackey/manager but didn't actually wrestle until he was 35. Batista is the next closest I can think of but he started in '99 at age 30.
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May 26, 2020 14:44
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Is DDP the oldest person to start wrestling full time while also being successful? Successful meaning they've held major titles and/or gone into a Hall of Fame. He was around for years as a lackey/manager but didn't actually wrestle until he was 35. Kevin Nash started at 31, Goldberg started at 30
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May 26, 2020 16:55
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the bodyguard started at 40 if you consider the all japan tag titles in the modern era plus a main event triple crown title challenge versus kento miyahara sufficiently important
Thauros fucked around with this message at 18:04 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 17:45
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Randaconda posted:Better than the cage match, maybe not quite as good as the WM match. The Bret-Owen WM match suffers from playing an obvious second fiddle to the Bret-Lex-Yoko championship storyline, IMO. I appreciated the match for the great in-ring classic it was, but I didn't feel like it had anything really at stake. The ladder match was a culmination of a long-running storyline between Shawn, Razor, and the Intercontinental belt/s, so the stakes were obvious right from the start and got me more invested in the outcome.
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May 26, 2020 17:58
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anakha posted:The Bret-Owen WM match suffers from playing an obvious second fiddle to the Bret-Lex-Yoko championship storyline, IMO. I appreciated the match for the great in-ring classic it was, but I didn't feel like it had anything really at stake. Yeah, and Shawn was at least equal to Bret, and while I would hesitate to call Scott Hall better than Owen, he was certainly more interesting.
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May 26, 2020 18:11
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anakha posted:The Bret-Owen WM match suffers from playing an obvious second fiddle to the Bret-Lex-Yoko championship storyline, IMO. I appreciated the match for the great in-ring classic it was, but I didn't feel like it had anything really at stake. Interesting. At the time, Owen had always been a really minor character up until the whole slow burn to a feud with Bret. The stakes being low, I think, I can agree with - because it was Bret dealing with a bad guy that he'd likely dispatch as he'd always done before. But Owen's shocking win created a new major player. Going in, it seems like a match Bret should win en route to getting the title back. Instead, it was him trying to overcome a big loss on the way to the main event. So, I think in watching the event, Bret/Owen likely means more, and carries more weight. I really don't remember the set up, but supposedly it was either going to be Lex vs. Crush while Bret fought Yokozuna, or Bret vs. Owen while Lex fought Yoko, to be determined by a coin flip. Did they work the coin flip and everything?
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May 26, 2020 18:16
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I would imagine, since Lex losing that scenario would have interfered with Crush vs Savage (which had been playing out for awhile before the coin toss)
DeathChicken fucked around with this message at 18:37 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 18:24
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Goldberg has always been 40 in my mind, probably because he always had gray in his goatee. I don't know anything about Japanese wrestling so I'll defer to others. Speaking of old but not really successful, the Boogie Man was 40 but lied about his, I remember. That was a fun character.
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May 26, 2020 18:26
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Red posted:At the time, Owen had always been a really minor character up until the whole slow burn to a feud with Bret. The stakes being low, I think, I can agree with - because it was Bret dealing with a bad guy that he'd likely dispatch as he'd always done before. But Owen's shocking win created a new major player. Going in, it seems like a match Bret should win en route to getting the title back. Instead, it was him trying to overcome a big loss on the way to the main event. So, I think in watching the event, Bret/Owen likely means more, and carries more weight. I'd agree with you that the match result would have likely meant more, if it weren't for the Bret-Yoko title match coming along later in the card. Knowing Bret was gonna wrestle again with the title on the line made the Owen match feel like a placeholder IMO.
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May 26, 2020 18:31
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anakha posted:I'd agree with you that the match result would have likely meant more, if it weren't for the Bret-Yoko title match coming along later in the card. Knowing Bret was gonna wrestle again with the title on the line made the Owen match feel like a placeholder IMO.
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May 26, 2020 18:38
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davidbix posted:That was explicitly the storyline, though: That whoever lost the coin flip would be wrestling in the opener so that, in the interest of fairness to the coin flip winner and Yokozuna, he would also have gone through a match that night before his title shot. It also perfectly set up Owen as top contender and furthered the larger storyline in general because Bret "showed up" Owen's big win by the end of the night. I think the intent was to have it so that Bret either had his rematch with Yoko, or got to face Luger again in a return to the Royal Rumble finish - both scenarios having real intrigue. In theory, this was a great plan, but Luger didn't have the following Bret did.
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May 26, 2020 18:45
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davidbix posted:That was explicitly the storyline, though: That whoever lost the coin flip would be wrestling in the opener so that, in the interest of fairness to the coin flip winner and Yokozuna, he would also have gone through a match that night before his title shot. It also perfectly set up Owen as top contender and furthered the larger storyline in general because Bret "showed up" Owen's big win by the end of the night. I'm not disagreeing with the overall and long-term story impact - my point was that in the context of considering which was the better WM10 match, the ladder match beats out Bret-Owen for me because the latter felt like it had less at stake. Like you said, it basically was there so that Bret would have a preliminary match and not have an unfair conditioning advantage for his title match. 'Gotta put him in a match' kinda leaves me underwhelmed and makes it harder for me to be invested in the match itself.
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May 26, 2020 19:08
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anakha posted:I'm not disagreeing with the overall and long-term story impact - my point was that in the context of considering which was the better WM10 match, the ladder match beats out Bret-Owen for me because the latter felt like it had less at stake. Like you said, it basically was there so that Bret would have a preliminary match and not have an unfair conditioning advantage for his title match. 'Gotta put him in a match' kinda leaves me underwhelmed and makes it harder for me to be invested in the match itself. But see, that's part of it - without that stipulation, Owen (in storyline) wouldn't have gotten his chance for a big break. So his complaint gets a little more weight, and his win backs it up, and it adds more to the drama of whether Bret can win later that evening. Seeing how the booking turned out, how good the match was, and how much of the next 6+ months of TV was set up by that match, it's by far the more important of the two.  But I'm certain we're both firm in our beliefs.
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May 26, 2020 19:43
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Also; what cruel son of a bitch makes Yokozuna wrestle twice in a single night? What cruel son of a bitch makes a paying customer WATCH two Yokozuna matches in a single night. Main should have just been Bret/Lex.
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May 26, 2020 20:02
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I actually quite like the storyline. Owen was the only Hart family member eliminated from the Survivor Series grudge match against HBK (originally Lawler but he had been hog-tied by his, er, "extracurricular activities") and he blamed this on Bret. They "patched things up" over Christmas and they both decided to compete solely as a tag team, culminating in a shot at the tag titles at the Royal Rumble. They lost, and Owen again blamed Bret. In response he kicked his leg out of his leg. He then unexpectedly beat Bret at Wrestlemania, and when all the faces celebrated with now-world champion Bret at the end of the show, we got the amazing shot of Owen standing on the ramp muttering "What about me?". Owen then became King of the Ring thanks to Jim Neidhart's interference and spent the rest of the year trying to get the belt off of Bret by any means necessary, ultimately succeeding at the Survivor Series by playing off the family drama he had instigated by beating up Bret and recruiting Neidhart in the first place. There are a few issues with it, some of which didn't even have anything to do with Bret and Owen. The first was that, like anakha says, the world title was kind of oddly slotted in to the feud. I feel like this mostly has a non-kayfabe explanation, since Yoko had been stuck as the (rather uninspiring) champion for months and Bret was pretty much the most over guy in the company. Then there was the cage match, which as I said before I don't think is all that great, partially down to the WWF cage match rules like Randy said. It makes sense to a point: Bret is more interested in beating Owen in a match after the loss at Wrestlemania, while Owen is obsessed with simply getting the title off of Bret. The problem is that, to me, it's long and lumbering, and whilst Bret and Owen are obviously very athletic, they're also both too sensible to do Jeff Hardy-esque crazy bumps off the cage, which probably hurts it for me in hindsight. Finally, you had the inevitable rise of HBK and Diesel both on- and off-screen, which meant that by 1995 Owen had been relegated back to the tag division and Bret was stuck restarting his feuds with Backlund and Lawler. ChrisBTY posted:Also; what cruel son of a bitch makes Yokozuna wrestle twice in a single night? What cruel son of a bitch makes a paying customer WATCH two Yokozuna matches in a single night. Also this.
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May 26, 2020 20:12
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ChrisBTY posted:Also; what cruel son of a bitch makes Yokozuna wrestle twice in a single night? What cruel son of a bitch makes a paying customer WATCH two Yokozuna matches in a single night. Why would you ruin Bret's victory by doing that?
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May 26, 2020 20:28
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ChrisBTY posted:Also; what cruel son of a bitch makes Yokozuna wrestle twice in a single night? What cruel son of a bitch makes a paying customer WATCH two Yokozuna matches in a single night. Yokozuna, in his early WWF run, was big, but his matches were fine, because they were booked to work with what he could do, and they were all relatively short. His WMX match with Lex generally sucked, because it should have been after Bret/Owen, but was several matches later, and so they had Yoko work on a nerve pinch for the longest time so as not to wear him out. The finish to his match with Lex was tremendous, but the match itself was nothing. His match with Bret at the end was also good for someone in his shape, but the ending (he fell off the turnbuckle) was poor, given that it wasn't given any build, and looked almost like a botch. Plus, I feel like they must have thought that the idea of 'Bret didn't beat him, Yoko was tired' would lead to rematches and house shows, but as far as I recall, Bret spent his time with Lawler, Owen, Anvil, and, eventually, Backlund. After Yokozuna was out of the main event scene, he worked tags, which was a good idea for him, except when he used rest holds (just... tag out...). But, as time went on, his weight went downhill, and, well...
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May 26, 2020 20:31
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Yeah, I always thought the implication of the Bret/Yoko ending was that Yoko was concussed from Lex's earlier forearm shot and lost his balance. But he didn't particularly sell it that way and the announcers as I recall didn't sell it that way, so it ended up looking like Yoko just slipped on an invisible second rope banana peel
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May 26, 2020 20:39
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^^^^ EXACTLY ^^^^Hedgehog Pie posted:Then there was the cage match, which as I said before I don't think is all that great, partially down to the WWF cage match rules like Randy said. It makes sense to a point: Bret is more interested in beating Owen in a match after the loss at Wrestlemania, while Owen is obsessed with simply getting the title off of Bret. The problem is that, to me, it's long and lumbering, and whilst Bret and Owen are obviously very athletic, they're also both too sensible to do Jeff Hardy-esque crazy bumps off the cage, which probably hurts it for me in hindsight. It's a very good match, considering the limitations, but as someone who loves Owen and Bret, I would give it ****1/4 or something. Given all of the things the two of them couldn't do, the match started out hamstrung. Cage matches, I think, are best suited for wild brawls, and for keeping out people who would interfere, but this match was neither of those things. Bret has historically been good about psychology, so it struck me as odd that this didn't have something done to add to the match (e.g., Owen having Anvil KO Davey at the start and make sure Bret couldn't escape, thus Bret has to outwit both to win). It's very good, but it's just two guys stopping each other from climbing a cage or crawling out the door. I've always thought the door as an escape was dumb, by the way.
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May 26, 2020 20:42
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DeathChicken posted:Yeah, I always thought the implication of the Bret/Yoko ending was that Yoko was concussed from Lex's earlier forearm shot and lost his balance. But he didn't particularly sell it that way and the announcers as I recall didn't sell it that way, so it ended up looking like Yoko just slipped on an invisible second rope banana peel Holy poo poo, I'm only just now realizing that Bret giving Luger a title shot via 'You got screwed, and we respect each other' would've done a lot for both guys. Did they work the house show circuit after WM X?
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May 26, 2020 20:49
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Red posted:It's a very good match, considering the limitations, but as someone who loves Owen and Bret, I would give it ****1/4 or something. Given all of the things the two of them couldn't do, the match started out hamstrung. Cage matches, I think, are best suited for wild brawls, and for keeping out people who would interfere, but this match was neither of those things. Bret has historically been good about psychology, so it struck me as odd that this didn't have something done to add to the match (e.g., Owen having Anvil KO Davey at the start and make sure Bret couldn't escape, thus Bret has to outwit both to win). It's very good, but it's just two guys stopping each other from climbing a cage or crawling out the door. I've always thought the door as an escape was dumb, by the way. ****1/4 seems more reasonable to me, yeah. I did enjoy snatches of it. I'm not big on wrestlers escaping through the door either, but I thought it made sense for Owen to try and dive out for a quick win because he was THAT consumed with getting the title off of Bret. I agree that it could have used something else, like the post-match angle happening during the match, or even perhaps just the match being cut in half or by a third. As it is it went over 30 minutes, with multiple spots being repeated (the aforementioned leaps for the door, desperation submissions, one of them climbing over the top of the cage only for the other to help them back in because it wasn't time for the finish yet, etc.). The actual finish with Owen getting his leg stuck was great though.
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May 26, 2020 20:51
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Hedgehog Pie posted:****1/4 seems more reasonable to me, yeah. I did enjoy snatches of it. I'm not big on wrestlers escaping through the door either, but I thought it made sense for Owen to try and dive out for a quick win because he was THAT consumed with getting the title off of Bret. I agree that it could have used something else, like the post-match angle happening during the match, or even perhaps just the match being cut in half or by a third. As it is it went over 30 minutes, with multiple spots being repeated (the aforementioned leaps for the door, desperation submissions, one of them climbing over the top of the cage only for the other to help them back in because it wasn't time for the finish yet, etc.). The actual finish with Owen getting his leg stuck was great though. I go ****1/2 if the camera man had done a better job of hiding Owen sliding his legs through the holes in the cage.
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May 26, 2020 21:01
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