|
Caf posted:I think Ingtar's obsession with finding the horn was because he saw it as his only chance at retuning to the light and finding salvation for his time as a darkfriend. Pretty sure he says something to that effect as they are fleeing Falme. Yeah he pretty much straight up said that to Rand as he urged them to leave him behind. He was the one to let in whoever took that bow shot at Rand when he was next to the Amyrlin on their way out of Shienar. I love a good redemption tale. I've definitely been surprised at how graphic a lot of the violence has been described. The scenes they find as they follow Fain are particularly gnarly. I first read through these first couple of books when I was 12 or 13, iirc. I was a pretty sheltered kid aside from fantasy books, so I'm kind of learning where some recurring nightmares I had came from lol. I also read the Sword of Truth novels pretty young, and those are even worse, particularly in terms of sexual violence and bad political allegory.
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 02:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:39 |
|
|
Caf posted:I think Ingtar's obsession with finding the horn was because he saw it as his only chance at retuning to the light and finding salvation for his time as a darkfriend. Pretty sure he says something to that effect as they are fleeing Falme. I get that, but it seems like the big personality change comes when he sees all the different versions of himself while they're transported to Toman Head. I guess it's still up in the air and could be his desperation, as you say, but he comes off as so insanely desperate for basically the whole book, regardless of the social situation and how inappropriate it is. And since Jaichim Carridin definitely has some Compulsion he doesn't understand done on him at the Darkfriend Social, it seems not-crazy that Ingtar could've also been compelled there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 03:18
|
|
|
eke out posted:I looked him up after just finishing rereading Great Hunt and it seems like it's never confirmed that Ingtar was definitely under compulsion? You could make an argument that Verin might've had something to do with it--it would fit her pattern to a T. Even when she doesn't use her trick (just short of Compulsion I think is how it's described? I'd have to look it up, ACoS?) to brainwash people into doing what they want in ways she wants, she seems to focus a lot on the redemption through dying well at a key moment angle. aparmenideanmonad posted:And making Valda a PoC is a clutch move - see the how to handle the obvious children = fantasy KKK??? for mass media discussion a dozen pages back or so. On the other hand, he will be raping Morgase.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 03:19
|
|
|
She said yes! under extraordinary amounts of duress
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 03:59
|
|
|
We were talking about Mat and consent earlier, and listening to that book has made me realize it has a lot going on about consent and lack thereof. Something I completely missed before: Rand's bleak depression isn't motivated by Perrin at all, it's that he believes he raped Min and is certain that he's gone mad already, and as THE DRAGON REBORN he's too important to face the justice he deserves. Relatedly, on Elayne: Mat: "I said no. She had a knife and said yes. What do you call that." Elayne: "Have you considered practicing smiles in the mirror?" The worst.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 04:12
|
|
|
Does anyone have any recommendations for podcasts concerning these books? There's a lot of them, ha. I'm resigning myself to this being my fixation for the next few months, and quarantine has me all caught up on my podcasts as well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 04:27
|
|
|
Thinking about it in that context, especially that exchange, makes me wonder if Elayne as a character was meant to be some sort of not very flattering commentary on second wave feminism. Hard to say without knowing more about Jordan's personal politics but seems like more going on than can be solely attributed to her being an entitled princess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 04:29
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:Thinking about it in that context, especially that exchange, makes me wonder if Elayne as a character was meant to be some sort of not very flattering commentary on second wave feminism. I'm pretty sure that there was a heavy element of rejecting the "if women ruled the world, everything would be so much better!" notion, but I think Elayne here is just supposed to be acting from assumptions and partial info.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 04:33
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:We were talking about Mat and consent earlier, and listening to that book has made me realize it has a lot going on about consent and lack thereof. Something I completely missed before: Rand's bleak depression isn't motivated by Perrin at all, it's that he believes he raped Min and is certain that he's gone mad already, and as THE DRAGON REBORN he's too important to face the justice he deserves. Rand's attitude towards women throughout the series suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Thinking he raped Min in that situation is pretty condescending. But his list is so much worse. I get that the books want us to understand it's a failing of his (to allow a woman to choose to sacrifice her life for his), but it's just so static. Sulin confronts him in Book 5 and he agrees to change, but nothing does. The Maidens beat him up in Book 8, nothing changes. If he had sent them away and lost their favor, that'd be some kind of interesting change. But nah, it's just book after book of people complaining about it and him saying, "ah shucks" as he gets walloped over the head again and again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 04:52
|
|
|
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:On the other hand, he will be raping Morgase. aparmenideanmonad fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jul 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 05:08
|
|
|
Can't remember if it was mentioned here or somewhere else, but I've been less annoyed about the List and the accompanying angst after reading that Robert Jordan had to kill a woman in Vietnam and never fully got over it. It made it feel more realistic to me and I've been able to accept it as a character flaw much more this time around. The Mat stuff remains gross though and he definitely intended it to be light comic relief which is a shame. Although doesn't Elayne apologise later on? minema fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Jul 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 07:23
|
|
|
There's no way Elayne would ever apologise for anything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 07:29
|
|
|
The thing I didn’t like about the list was that in itself isn’t a bad idea since killing someone can be traumatic, it’s that it’s only women. If he would have been remorseful about the hundreds of thousands of men he killed too, that would be much more forgivable. But nope, Rand the ultimate white knight needs to protect every woman he meets even though women are the ones that protect him the most. Dumbass wetlander.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 07:50
|
|
|
The list also gets crazier with him as I recall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 08:14
|
|
|
Atlas Hugged posted:The list also gets crazier with him as I recall. Yeah, that's part of why I never really felt like the books were endorsing it, so to speak, since, you know, Rand becomes a pretty terrible person for a while and what starts off as unironic white knighting ends up as an obsessive fixation. quote:I get that the books want us to understand it's a failing of his (to allow a woman to choose to sacrifice her life for his) Maybe it'll feel differently when I get through the latter books again, but I always got the opposite impression: the books want us to understand that it's a failing of his that he can't allow others to sacrifice themselves for him, and that he can't see their deaths as anything but a reflection of his own lack of control and power, because of his combination of internalized misogyny and insanity. eke out fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jul 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 14:44
|
|
|
eke out posted:Yeah, that's part of why I never really felt like the books were endorsing it, so to speak, since, you know, Rand becomes a pretty terrible person for a while and what starts off as unironic white knighting ends up as an obsessive fixation. Yeah, Mat is a good contrast because while he has similar hang ups about killing women, ultimately he will do what it takes to survive and sees them more like equals to men. The Aiel Darkfriend he kills is a good example - he was reluctant to kill her but did so, and didn't beat himself up over it for too long Compare that to Rand who couldn't even bring himself to kill one of the Forsaken trying to explode him because she was a woman, and lost his most trusted advisor (and almost several of his closest allies, and his own life!) in the process
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
eke out posted:Maybe it'll feel differently when I get through the latter books again, but I always got the opposite impression: the books want us to understand that it's a failing of his that he can't allow others to sacrifice themselves for him, and that he can't see their deaths as anything but a reflection of his own lack of control and power, because of his combination of internalized misogyny and insanity. Yeah, that's poor phrasing on my part. Your understanding is correct. I didn't know that about Jordan and Vietnam. That makes a lot more sense, but I still wish that plot point had been more dynamic. I forget - does Mat have another woman killed after ordering Renna to be shot before she gets to the Seanchan? As an aside I just looked Renna up on Fandom and the picture they chose is pretty creepy. Really drawing out the sexual undertones of the a'dam.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 15:54
|
|
|
He killed the aiel he was sleeping with when she turned out to be a darkfriend...?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 16:27
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:He killed the aiel he was sleeping with when she turned out to be a darkfriend...? Renna is much later, CoT-KoD.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 16:53
|
|
|
Prairie Bus posted:Yeah, that's poor phrasing on my part. Your understanding is correct. After that they're attacked by Darkfriends in the next town they reach, and Mat freezes up fighting the last one (A woman), before Tuon kills her.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 18:45
|
|
|
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Renna is much later, CoT-KoD. Oh oh AFTER. I can read.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 19:49
|
|
|
eke out posted:I looked him up after just finishing rereading Great Hunt and it seems like it's never confirmed that Ingtar was definitely under compulsion? Well he was at the Darkfriend Social where Baalzamon uploaded subconscious images in everyone’s heads regarding future orders, so. (The Whitecloak Questioner POV spots signs of a Shienaran lord under the costumes.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 20:06
|
|
|
I think it's worth noting that part of the reason Rand is so hosed up about his list is because he's the Kinslayer Reborn. While he definitely does have his own issues on the subject that he needs to deal with, they're a bit exacerbated by the madness and the ghost in his head that never stops shrieking about how he killed his wife.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 22:37
|
|
|
Didn't Lews Therin's voice even at some point start adding his dead wife's name and maybe others to Rand's list when Rand was reciting it? If I'm remembering that correctly, I'm sure that having his hallucination/previous incarnation reinforcing the list certainly wasn't helping him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 22:59
|
|
|
Lord Awkward posted:Didn't Lews Therin's voice even at some point start adding his dead wife's name and maybe others to Rand's list when Rand was reciting it? If I'm remembering that correctly, I'm sure that having his hallucination/previous incarnation reinforcing the list certainly wasn't helping him. Yeah, Lews Therin did start adding names after a while. I forget exactly when, but Rand does comment on how he noticed it but just went along with it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 23:39
|
|
|
For awhile he tries to reject the additions, but eventually stops noticing them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 23:40
|
|
|
Just got to shadar logoth again, and goddamn I know teenagers are stupid but they were so loving stupid.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
No, Moraine was really loving stupid there. All she gave them was the barest possible description, without even a cursory "do not stray from me, there are dangers here that I do not have time to tell of". You take teenage boys fresh off the farm to a ruined city, they're going to explore it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:No, Moraine was really loving stupid there. All she gave them was the barest possible description, without even a cursory "do not stray from me, there are dangers here that I do not have time to tell of". You take teenage boys fresh off the farm to a ruined city, they're going to explore it. Her too yeah.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 00:08
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:No, Moraine was really loving stupid there. All she gave them was the barest possible description, without even a cursory "do not stray from me, there are dangers here that I do not have time to tell of". You take teenage boys fresh off the farm to a ruined city, they're going to explore it. She's probably a lot more used to people shutting the gently caress up and doing whatever an Aes Sedai says to do, to be fair to her. But, she should surely have been smarter than to let them off an extremely tight leash considering she was certain one of those boys was the Dragon reborn.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 03:06
|
|
|
given all the prophecy poo poo i feel like no matter what she did mat would have managed to sneak off and be an idiot anyways
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 03:20
|
|
|
OR MAYBE SHE KNEW ALL ALONG 
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 03:53
|
|
|
I mean its also worth remembering that Moiraine was basically dead on her feet at that point as she'd been doing demanding non-stop channeling for like 12 hours while they were riding. Lan and Nynaeve were mostly concerned with making sure she would get some sleep and not die on them too. Like the Dragon is important theoretically, but Moiraine was in serious danger of dying or burning herself out and if she died then they all probably would have. I don't really blame her for Shadar Logoth.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
Zore posted:I mean its also worth remembering that Moiraine was basically dead on her feet at that point as she'd been doing demanding non-stop channeling for like 12 hours while they were riding. Lan and Nynaeve were mostly concerned with making sure she would get some sleep and not die on them too. Oh not for shadar logoth as a choice, just someone, anyone should have kept an eye on the three of them. But yeah Mat needed the dagger due to, well, everything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
Excuse me I think the term is “terminal moiraine”
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:Oh not for shadar logoth as a choice, just someone, anyone should have kept an eye on the three of them. I mean at that point their party was just the boys, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan and Moiraine. Lan and Moiraine had been exerting themselves massively with Moiraine described as barely able to keep upright in her saddle. Lan is concrned with keeping Moiraine alive more than keeping an eye on three idiot shepherds as she's been his friend and partner for 20 years the search for the Dragon has always been her cause while he tries to keep her alive. Nynaeve is a healer who's already massively concerned with Moiraine's health and monitoring her. That leaves Egwene as the only person who could even really theoretically keep an eye on them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:09
|
|
|
Nah, she was holding Nynaeve's bag o herbs. Thom was with them with the horses and is like "Imma go smoke a pipe see ya". They weren't particularly his to watch obviously.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:12
|
|
|
Point is that she didn't even bother with a "this city is cursed, don't go wandering or ypi'll die" on the way in. If she had donr that, and the boys wandered off anyway, O wouldnt blame her.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:13
|
|
|
Zore posted:I mean its also worth remembering that Moiraine was basically dead on her feet at that point as she'd been doing demanding non-stop channeling for like 12 hours while they were riding. Lan and Nynaeve were mostly concerned with making sure she would get some sleep and not die on them too. Yeah, its kinda sad we never got a good late book flash back to that incident. Compared to everything in the later books, that incident seems like a tiny skirmish, but it must have been the one of the toughest fight of her life at that point. But she didn't have a POV scene until the very end of that book, so we never heard her inner monologue to reflect on it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:39 |
|
|
Data Graham posted:Excuse me I think the term is “terminal moiraine” 
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2020 04:32
|
|