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A Real Horse posted:But no, you see, it's good and pure and innocent. Jacob just is absolutely obsessed with the infant/toddler/small child, but it's because he's such a good protector for her!  Twilight fans are so loving stupid. They just let Meyer stealth pedophilia past them and make jokes about their babies being groomed. This loving poo poo man.
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Jul 15, 2020 04:22
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Thaaaaaaat's pop culture!  Edit: upon reflection, this seems like the flipside of the narrative we hear in pretty much all media, that young women are desirable objects. Almost everything we read and see tells us that young women are the peak of desirability, the younger, the "fresher". It's loving gross. i feel like Meyer is a product of that atmosphere, and shes taking it to its logical conclusion. Ugh. Burn the world. Lysistrata fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 04:38
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I always found it intensely creepy that EL James saw a book made for teens/tweens and thought "man, that makes me horny." I know people write fanfic about everything (I stumbled on that power rangers stuff in like middle school), but something about a 40 year old writing 1000 pages of erotica about something aimed at 14 year olds is just...wrong. Now that I know a ton of adults did that, I'm even more horrified. E: in case anyone points out that there are plenty of porn movies about sailor moon and harry potter and stuff, I think the difference is that the actors don't obsess over it for years and years or post it on sites where teens are active or try to take over fan forums with a bunch of luna and artemis porn. hyperhazard fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 15:48
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hyperhazard posted:I always found it intensely creepy that EL James saw a book made for teens/tweens and thought "man, that makes me horny." As for Twilight being aimed at 14 year olds... I don't know. It feels like Twilight is mostly aimed at Stephanie Meyer, and got marketed as for young adults. I don't think that's how she initially saw it. The fact that it got a lot of middle aged women horned up doesn't feel so weird if you consider that's basically where Meyer was coming from. Is that a weird dynamic? Was there a ton of super inappropriate stuff going on? Is it weird for a middle-aged woman to be so open about how hot she finds her eternally 17 year old brainchild? All of these are yes, but it makes the cross-generational thing make a bit more sense than, like, bronies. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 17:46
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It's swings and roundabouts. The minors did a lot to gently caress themselves too and they were not innocent. The most common thing I saw was mother-daughter pairs that got into Twilight together but the teenagers would get angry at their moms (usually over Edward vs Jacob) and there was a spat of identity theft with teens posting their parents credit cards, destroying their credit scores, I think there was even a case where someone gave out her mother's social security number because she was mad that her mother wouldn't let her read porny fanfic and blocked certain websites with Trend Micro. And it created this revenge subculture of teens desperately consuming porn and getting mad after they infiltrate those 18+ spaces even after adults started putting up walls after Breaking Dawn and finally started age-restricting their adult material. Part of the problem with the boundaries thing in Current Year (that Twilight is responsible for) is that teens are now charging into 18+ spaces, announcing "I AM AN UNDERAGE MINOR" and then calling all of the adults pedophiles for writing porn. In the Hamilton stageshow fandom, teens were accusing adults of being pedophiles and child molesters because they would write gay sex fanfic about the stageshow versions of George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. Of course Hamilton was in his twenties (?) at the time and Washington was in his forties. But the self admitted teenagers who also posted their personal info and confirmed their underagedom in their twitter bios were calling adults pedophiles for writing about two consenting of age adults. It is now very very common for minors to lie about their age (some of them as young as 11 years old), download tons of adult porn, read and watch all of it, and then try to use it to doxx and harass grown ups when those adults have age-restricted their content. When Twilight fandom started splitting off into adult spaces versus teen spaces after Breaking Dawn, a lot of the teen fandom got super pissed because the adults wrote all the good porn and teens love porn even though they shouldn't be consuming it. In the latter days of the fandom it was a big problem with teens invading those spaces as well and it codified the behavior we see in a lot of fandoms now. This is what I mean when I mentioned kids have no sense of proportion but it all stems from Twilight fandom. Teenagers stalking, doxxing, and harassing adult women started there. Twilight was never intended to be YA. It was a bored housewife trying to recapture her youth with her perfect man. Lots of people go through that, and I don't think its inherently immoral...and if it had just stayed there we wouldn't be having this conversation probably. The pedophilia changed everything but it's important to remember that Twilight was also marketed as "a bodice ripper but it's completely safe for work! You can read it with your kids!" Something important to remember: adult Twilight fandom realized early on that that these books were super generic and that they could make money by writing fanfiction if they changed the names. EL James wasn't writing fanfic because she wanted to write about Edward and Bella, she was using the Twilight fandom to test out reception for her novel. Hundreds of indie romance novels have been published this way. She didn't care about Twilight, it was very common for writers to use Twilight to get feedback, take down the fic, and republish it with different character names. It was never about Edward and Bella, it was always about adults using Twilight as their internet beta for profit. HIJK fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 19:31
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“Internet beta for profit” is going to be my next throwaway user name.
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Jul 15, 2020 21:24
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I agree that fanfic can be a good jumping-off point. A whole bunch of award-winning literature out there is basically fan fiction: Gertrude and Claudius, The Red Tent, The Killer Angels, Mason & Dixon, The Mists of Avalon, etc etc. Plenty of them have sex scenes (in the case of Gertrude and Claudius, Updike really wants the readers to know how much Gertrude likes giving head). I think it comes down to a boundaries thing, like you guys mentioned. PetraCore posted:As for Twilight being aimed at 14 year olds... I don't know. It feels like Twilight is mostly aimed at Stephanie Meyer, and got marketed as for young adults. I don't think that's how she initially saw it. The fact that it got a lot of middle aged women horned up doesn't feel so weird if you consider that's basically where Meyer was coming from. Is that a weird dynamic? Was there a ton of super inappropriate stuff going on? Is it weird for a middle-aged woman to be so open about how hot she finds her eternally 17 year old brainchild? All of these are yes, but it makes the cross-generational thing make a bit more sense than, like, bronies.
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Jul 15, 2020 21:25
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hyperhazard posted:I agree that fanfic can be a good jumping-off point. A whole bunch of award-winning literature out there is basically fan fiction: Gertrude and Claudius, The Red Tent, The Killer Angels, Mason & Dixon, The Mists of Avalon, etc etc. Plenty of them have sex scenes (in the case of Gertrude and Claudius, Updike really wants the readers to know how much Gertrude likes giving head). I think it comes down to a boundaries thing, like you guys mentioned. I remember YA existing as a general category at least in the 90s, both in my local library and in local retail bookstores. Are you talking about some change to the nature of the YA category or marketing or something? I know there was a big boom in YA fiction after the initial popularity of Harry Potter, but it sounds to me like you have something specific in mind that I'm not understanding.
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Jul 15, 2020 21:48
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YA pre Harry potter was a very small market which typically had short, simple stories with very basic characters. There were a few stand out examples like (relatively well written) the Pern series, Redwall, etc. But they had basically no adult readership. Largely because they were relatively short and simplistically written stories. There are a few cases of better written stuff but those weren't written as young adult usually. Harry potter was seminal because it had break out appeal and as Rowling could get away with using more complex writing, young adult became a lot more focused on the adult part than just the young part. As a marketing concept it suddenly became more than a small niche genre with very tight acceptable elements. At least in assuming that's what they meant.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:12
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It sucks that Rowling had to go mask-off so hard because I had thoughts of eventually doing a Harry Potter thread, where we would approach with full spoiler freedom and try to figure out if the books held up and if there was legitimate foreshadowing and character arcs planned out for years. Unfortunately, I think any attempt at that is tainted now.
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Jul 15, 2020 23:35
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Yeah, there's a difference between books written for young adults and the modern YA marketing genre. Think Hunger Games, Eragon, Twlight, Diverget (books with sci-fi/fantasy elements that star a straight white teen who has a love triangle over the course of three or four novels that are serialized because it makes the publishing house more money)* vs The Outsiders, Speak, Ella Enchanted, Catcher in the Rye, Fault in Our Stars, or anything by Judy Blume (also a lot of straight white teens, but more focused on coming-of-age and finding your identity). Recently though there's been a push in YA for diversity and amplifying POC and LGBT voices and discussions of mental illness/racism/transphobia, which is awesome, especially because the genre is so widely read. *Not that these can't be well-written books, but there's a pattern.
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Jul 15, 2020 23:46
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chitoryu12 posted:It sucks that Rowling had to go mask-off so hard because I had thoughts of eventually doing a Harry Potter thread, where we would approach with full spoiler freedom and try to figure out if the books held up and if there was legitimate foreshadowing and character arcs planned out for years. Unfortunately, I think any attempt at that is tainted now. That's a shame, because I think that this would be incredibly interesting. But yeah, any attempt now feels like it's doomed to become about Rowling being a shithead and not stay on topic.
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Jul 15, 2020 23:55
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hyperhazard posted:Yeah, there's a difference between books written for young adults and the modern YA marketing genre. Think Hunger Games, Eragon, Twlight, Diverget (books with sci-fi/fantasy elements that star a straight white teen who has a love triangle over the course of three or four novels that are serialized because it makes the publishing house more money)* vs The Outsiders, Speak, Ella Enchanted, Catcher in the Rye, Fault in Our Stars, or anything by Judy Blume (also a lot of straight white teens, but more focused on coming-of-age and finding your identity). And fortunately the Hollywood boom of YA novel adaptations killed the genre off. The Divergent film series started out decently strong and immediately took a nose dive until the final book was switched to a TV movie and then got canceled completely. Market saturation is terrible, but often self-correcting.
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Jul 16, 2020 07:30
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Chapter 29: Defectionquote:We sat there all night long, statues of horror and grief, and Alice never came back. Yes, you read that right. Rather than doing literally anything at all in response to the impending false report to the Volturi about an immortal child, the Cullens have decided to all stand completely still in terror until sunrise. quote:Jacob was snoring in the corner, a mountain of fur on the floor, twitching anxiously in his sleep. Sam knew everything—the wolves were readying themselves for what was coming. Not that this preparation would do anything but get them killed with the rest of my family. And our fearless leader has decided to just sit around Renesmee forever, letting the rest of the tribe do all the work. quote:The sunlight broke through the back windows, sparkling on Edward’s skin. My eyes had not moved from his since Alice’s departure. We’d stared at each other all night, staring at what neither of us could live through losing: the other. I saw my reflection glimmer in his agonized eyes as the sun touched my own skin. Staring at each other. All night. quote:His eyebrows moved an infinitesimal bit, then his lips. Maybe if you hadn't all been just imitating mannequins in the living room you could have noticed? quote:Aro’s translucent-skinned face filled my head. Aro, who had seen into all the corners of Alice’s mind, who knew everything she was capable of— He's physiologically incapable of anything else! quote:I was still stronger than the rest of them, and I used that strength to push myself forward. I overtook Esme in a few bounds, and Rosalie in just a few strides more. I raced through the thick forest until I was right behind Edward and Carlisle. Always staying right behind the men. quote:“Would they have been able to surprise her?” Carlisle asked, his voice as even as if he were standing motionless rather than running at full speed. So why would he not show up for a month then? quote:“Is this a trap?” Emmett called from behind us. Why is it a "maybe" if there's no evidence whatsoever? quote:Alice and Jasper’s trail was curling into a wide arc; it stretched first east of the house, but headed north on the other side of the river, and then back west again after a few miles. We recrossed the river, all six jumping within a second of each other. Edward ran in the lead, his concentration total. Totally concentrated on how there's no signs at all of the Volturi being here? quote:“Did you catch that scent?” Esme called ahead a few moments after we’d leaped the river for the second time. She was the farthest back, on the far left edge of our hunting party. She gestured to the southeast. Yes, how dare they be so imperfect. quote:I watched Edward’s face go absolutely white as he read what Sam was thinking. Sam ignored him, looking straight at Carlisle as he stopped walking and began to speak. Sorry, what did you watch his face do? quote:“Right after midnight, Alice and Jasper came to this place and asked permission to cross our land to the ocean. I granted them that and escorted them to the coast myself. They went immediately into the water and did not return. As we journeyed, Alice told me it was of the utmost importance that I say nothing to Jacob about seeing her until I spoke to you. I was to wait here for you to come looking for her and then give you this note. She told me to obey her as if all our lives depended on it.” So yes, vampires will just powerboat their way across the water. Presumably fully dressed. quote:Sam’s face was grim as he held out a folded sheet of paper, printed all over with small black text. It was a page out of a book; my sharp eyes read the printed words as Carlisle unfolded it to see the other side. The side facing me was the copyright page from The Merchant of Venice. A hint of my own scent blew off of it as Carlisle shook the paper flat. I realized it was a page torn from one of my books. I’d brought a few things from Charlie’s house to the cottage; a few sets of normal clothes, all the letters from my mother, and my favorite books. My tattered collection of Shakespeare paperbacks had been on the bookshelf in the cottage’s little living room yesterday morning.… Okay, nobody just reads Shakespeare scripts for fun. One of the biggest problems with English classes trying to teach Shakespeare is that the plays sound incredibly tedious and dull when simply read off the page, and they require a skilled actor who can express the lines properly to get them across to the audience. This is something I've actually done professionally so it's especially annoying to me! quote:“Alice has decided to leave us,” Carlisle whispered. But...why? quote:We stood frozen again, the silence total but for the sound of the wolves’ heartbeats, their breathing. Their thoughts must have been loud, too. Edward was first to move again, speaking in response to what he heard in Sam’s head. Is everyone just that fine with Edward poking his nose in their heads 24/7? quote:“Enough that you would abandon your family?” Sam asked out loud, censure in his tone. It was clear that he had not read the note before giving it to Carlisle. He was upset now, looking as if he regretted listening to Alice. Edward is so incapable of making normal facial expressions that we need Bella to explain his actual emotions at all times. quote:“We don’t know what she saw,” Edward said. “Alice is neither unfeeling nor a coward. She just has more information than we do.” Maybe stop talking about how imprinting is amazing and pure and beautiful if you're going to have your characters point out all the terrible things with it. quote:“But you should heed the warning,” Edward went on. “This is not something you want to involve yourselves in. You can still avoid what Alice saw.” "Ignore that you killed an entire army of strong newborns before with almost no issue." quote:Sam looked at Carlisle with a softer expression. “As Edward pointed out, we don’t have the same kind of freedom that you have. Renesmee is as much a part of our family now as she is yours. Jacob cannot abandon her, and we cannot abandon him.” His eyes flickered to Alice’s note, and his lips pressed into a thin line. Abandoning him would be a net positive. quote:“You don’t know her,” Edward said. Edward has been invading her thoughts for 50 years now. quote:Carlisle put a hand on Edward’s shoulder. “We have much to do, son. Whatever Alice’s decision, we would be foolish not to follow her advice now. Let’s go home and get to work.” So I'm going to spoil it right here: Alice didn't just run away like a coward. She's got a plan for this. Meyer's intent is that you think she just abandoned the family and her return will be a twist, but she's incapable of actually letting the Cullens seem like they've legitimately done anything wrong. So even though everyone should be freaking out over Alice and Jasper seeming to have fled in the night and left the rest of them to die, they have to trip over themselves to justify what she did and emphasize that she must have had a special reason for doing it. quote:I’d always thought of the Cullens as a whole, an indivisible unit. Suddenly, I remembered that it had not always been so. Carlisle had created Edward, Esme, Rosalie and Emmett; Edward had created me. We were physically linked by blood and venom. I never thought of Alice and Jasper as separate—as adopted into the family. But in truth, Alice had adopted the Cullens. She had shown up with her unconnected past, bringing Jasper with his, and fit herself into the family that was already there. Both she and Jasper had known another life outside the Cullen family. Had she really chosen to lead another new life after she’d seen that life with the Cullens was over? First, you have no blood linkage. At all. Second, the Cullens have never been an indivisible unit! Remember what they did when they left Forks in New Moon? They all immediately went their separate ways to do whatever they wanted and just kept in touch by phone and email. If you're so sure that Alice and Jasper would run off as soon as things look dangerous, maybe they're not the big happy family you expected? quote:We were doomed, then, weren’t we? There was no hope at all. Not one ray, one flicker that might have convinced Alice she had a chance at our side.
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Jul 16, 2020 20:31
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chitoryu12 posted:It sucks that Rowling had to go mask-off so hard because I had thoughts of eventually doing a Harry Potter thread, where we would approach with full spoiler freedom and try to figure out if the books held up and if there was legitimate foreshadowing and character arcs planned out for years. Unfortunately, I think any attempt at that is tainted now. Eh, you've been handling some pretty sensitive and controversial books so far and the threads have been pretty good about it. I say go for it.
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Jul 16, 2020 20:44
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To be honest, i would agree, but i feel like without some kind of explicitly clear guideline on how and when the terf bullshit gets addressed, it would have to be explained quite often that yes terfs are wrong and bad etc. for the benefit of readers who may not have followed the whole thread or whatever. Which means the best way to do it would be to agree with and permit talk of her terfiness/fake feminism/how it may have affected the books, but only under circumstances where it's meaningful and important to reading and analyzing the books or their effect on pop culture. Outline that in clear terms in your first post. That way people know they can poo poo on her for it sometimes, but you get to define when it's interfering with the conversation/reading, and everyone knows the boundary because it's in the first post. That may be more work than other threads like this, but it would keep the thread from getting derailed. I wouldnt bother getting into consequences unless it happens, though. The request for civility is more powerful than a threat.
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Jul 16, 2020 22:50
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is there that much to talk about with regards to what she's done in the last 5 years or so in a discussion of the books? Obviously things like claiming dumbledore is actually gay are relevant but she made that claim like over a decade ago.
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Jul 16, 2020 23:16
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Yeah, I can see the danger of the whole thread devolving into TERF bullshit but honestly unlike Meyer I don't think there's that much of Rowling's personal mind in the books. At least partly because TERF crap wasn't part of anyone's radar 2 decades ago, hell it didn't become part of mainstream 'feminism' in the UK until 7 or 8 years ago. I'd be genuinely interested if it was something that did rise organically out of discussing the books but the only place I could see it is pointing out that people don't gender swap with polyjuice potion.
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Jul 16, 2020 23:40
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MrNemo posted:Yeah, I can see the danger of the whole thread devolving into TERF bullshit but honestly unlike Meyer I don't think there's that much of Rowling's personal mind in the books. At least partly because TERF crap wasn't part of anyone's radar 2 decades ago, hell it didn't become part of mainstream 'feminism' in the UK until 7 or 8 years ago. There's also some other nasty bits in there, like the Jewish stereotype for the banker goblins and the ending of the house elf plot point being "Some races are happy with being slaves."
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Jul 17, 2020 00:35
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chitoryu12 posted:There's also some other nasty bits in there, like the Jewish stereotype for the banker goblins and the ending of the house elf plot point being "Some races are happy with being slaves."
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Jul 17, 2020 01:34
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So I guess this is how Meyer decided to handle the problem of a character that can see the future: just have them run off in the middle of the night.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:07
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quote:“I’m not going down without a fight,” Emmett snarled low under his breath. “Alice told us what to do. Let’s get it done.” "Unlike earlier in the day, when every single one of us gave up immediately." quote:Yes, we all would fight. What else was there? And apparently we would involve others, because Alice had said so before she’d left us. How could we not follow Alice’s last warning? The wolves, too, would fight with us for Renesmee. Why? quote:I didn’t feel the same resolve the others seemed to feel. Alice knew the odds. She was giving us the only chance she could see, but the chance was too slim for her to bet on it. For supposedly having super fast brains and being able to precisely count everything in the world, vampires in this universe are incredibly stupid. quote:We ran automatically now, not the same panicked hurry as before. As we neared the river, Esme’s head lifted. "I was sure his complete bullshit that's clearly not backed up by evidence was right." quote:“Bella?” Edward asked in an emotionless voice as I hesitated. This guy is the worst at everything! quote:“Then I’ll meet you there.” Staring at each other for an entire night without blinking wasn't enough? quote:I held my hand out to him, and he took it. Because you've dedicated so much of your time to being her parents? quote:I nodded, and we were running again. I like the implication that our incredibly worldly, educated, and wealthy Cullens have no paper or writing utensils anywhere in the house and would immediately resort to theft or vandalism to leave a note. quote:Sure enough, the trail led back to the cottage by a circuitous route that stayed far clear of the Cullens’ house and the wolves in the nearby woods. Yes. That's exactly what the trails say. This isn't hard. quote:We were almost to the cottage now, and I felt uneasy. I was glad to have Edward’s hand in mine, but I also felt as if I should be here alone. Tearing out the page and carrying it back to Jasper was such an odd thing for Alice to do. It felt like there was a message in her action—one I didn’t understand at all. But it was my book, so the message must be for me. If it were something she wanted Edward to know, wouldn’t she have pulled a page from one of his books…? That makes no sense to assume. quote:“Give me just a minute,” I said, pulling my hand free as we got to the door. So yes, Alice has a plan. And that plan relies on Bella not being an idiot for once. quote:When Edward came through the door after only thirteen seconds rather than thirty, I was watching the book burn. You fucker, you couldn't even wait 30 goddamn seconds? quote:“What’s going on, Bella?”  quote:“We don’t know what she’s doing,” he said quietly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u5ixEyjZng This is another thing the movie fixes. Bella is reading the note alone while she and Edward are at the cottage and she makes the connection to the book by herself, which lets her easily destroy the evidence without Edward getting suspicious. It also more clearly and immediately explains the reason for this: Bella is the only one whose mind can't be read by Aro, so having her be the only one with knowledge keeps it safe. quote:“When we were on the plane to Italy,” I whispered—this was not a lie, except perhaps in context—“on our way to rescue you… she lied to Jasper so that he wouldn’t come after us. She knew that if he faced the Volturi, he would die. She was willing to die herself rather than put him in danger. Willing for me to die, too. Willing for you to die.” There was no reason at all for this fake debate. quote:Alice’s note did not make me hopeful. If there were any way to avoid the coming slaughter, Alice would have stayed. I couldn’t see another possibility. So it was something else she was giving me. Not a way to escape. But what else would she think that I wanted? Maybe a way to salvage something? Was there anything I could still save? Alice being like Dr. Strange, running through millions of possible futures and finding only one where they win, and the solution is "Just let them see Renesmee and realize she's not a vampire." quote:Carlisle and the others had not been idle in our absence. We’d been separated from them for all of five minutes, and they were already prepared to leave. In the corner, Jacob was human again, with Renesmee on his lap, both of them watching us with wide eyes. Sorry, you're using a loving globe for planning your adventures? Like Victorian explorers? quote:The atmosphere was more positive now than before; it felt good to them to be in action. Their hopes were pinned on Alice’s instructions. To the computer, where we can get much better maps! quote:“We’re to stay here?” Edward asked, looking at Carlisle. He didn’t sound happy. The brooding serial killer whose face can only express rage or grief is the best person for proving his daughter isn't an evil vampire baby? quote:Edward gave one sharp nod, still not happy. “There’s a lot of ground to cover.” Carlisle implicitly admitting that vampires are really loving dumb and will skip all of the obvious signs that Renesmee is a hybrid in favor of freaking out and trying to kill everyone. quote:Carlisle put his hand on Edward’s shoulder for a second and then kissed my forehead. Esme hugged us both, and Emmett punched us both on the arm. Rosalie forced a hard smile for Edward and me, blew a kiss to Renesmee, and then gave Jacob a parting grimace. Just had to throw that in there. quote:“Good luck,” Edward told them. Because "Renesmee Carlie Cullen" couldn't be the only lovely name in this book. quote:Renesmee twisted in Jacob’s arms to touch his cheek. Yeah, your parenting is much better! Where you just don't do anything! quote:I looked carefully at her face. She did not look frightened, only anxious and very serious as she conversed with Jacob in her silent way. This is such a loving annoying way of communicating. Just talk you weird child. quote:Edward hesitated. Yeah! Jacob is completely unfamiliar with someone wanting to kill a person just because they're part of a different species! quote:“I think they would mostly be tolerant under normal circumstances. But you need to understand—accepting Nessie will not be a simple thing for any of them. Why make it even the slightest bit harder?” There's two things that make this book stupid right here. The first is, once again, the fact that any vampire should logically see Renesmee as "a weird human" at first rather than an immortal child. The second is that despite supposedly being such a dangerous threat to humanity that vampire society is collectively traumatized by how horrific they are and the Volturi will supposedly just slaughter the Cullen family and all of their allies on their arrival for such a crime, they're taking an entire month to take care of it. What the hell are they doing that's going to take that long? Are they picking their outfits? Stocking their private jet with slaves? quote:“Edward…” It was still odd to hear Jacob use Edward’s name without bitterness. Why is it that all of the other imprinted werewolves are completely fine with being away from their wives and having responsibilities, but Jacob starts flagellating himself in despair when he has to be out of Renesmee's sight for more than a few seconds? quote:“I can do that. Company in the morning, huh?” You're not going to tell the guy who's paranoid about vampires showing up that a bunch of vampires are showing up in his territory?! quote:“Listening to Alice is usually the right thing.” Yes, the vampires who all spent the night just frozen in terror immediately turn around and obey Alice's every whim because her future vision is so perfect. It really just makes them look completely incompetent. When they're faced with an actual struggle, they just shut down and panic until Alice can use her powers to give them a solution. quote:Jacob’s teeth ground together, and I could see that he shared Sam’s feelings about what Alice and Jasper had done. No, they don't do things absentmindedly. There was over a page of dialogue talking about this. You know this. quote:I scanned the screen in my peripheral vision. Literally nothing? Not even a similar address in a different zip code or city? Like what always happens when you search addresses? quote:I continued staring out the window and brushed the wood a few times. I heard light footsteps crossing the floor to me, and I turned with what I hoped was the same expression as before. My daughter, who I never raised and pawned off on relatives. quote:Suddenly, I knew that this was all I wanted anymore. The rest I would bear if I had to, but not her life being forfeited. Not that. Why the hell would Leah be worrying? She hates all of them! Wait, where's Emmett in this? quote:She settled on Alice’s face, longing and confused. Where was Alice? "Alice is always perfect always makes the right choices, but what if she didn't this time, but also I trust her without a doubt." quote:Renesmee sighed, and the longing intensified. If you go back to Jacob's reveal that he told Charlie about the supernatural, Bella already did this crying-without-tears. quote:Renesmee’s eyes glistened wetly as she watched my face. She stroked my face, showing me nothing, just trying to soothe me.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:54
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I do appreciate the drama caused for lack of a loving echocardiogram. They stole an icu, but couldn’t find the time to pick up an ultrasound, or even just take one of renesmee.“an obvious letter” posted:Dear Aro:
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Jul 18, 2020 01:13
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Anias posted:I do appreciate the drama caused for lack of a loving echocardiogram. They stole an icu, but couldn’t find the time to pick up an ultrasound, or even just take one of renesmee. Das Sporking takes great pride in pointing out that it's the 2000s so theoretically it could be possible for the set of obscenely wealthy vampire clans to just video call each other and show off Bella and Renesmee to them. It's hard to tell if it's Meyer being so dedicated to her narrative that she's willing to annihilate realism and make every character stupid to make it happen, or if she's legitimately so bad at this that she doesn't remember any of her canon and none of her editors are competent enough to check her work and make her change it. I can't think of any major book of this level of prominence that's so sloppy.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:13
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This tragedy could have been avoided if only Irina had stopped skipping her vampire eye tests and seen that Nessie was clearly alive. If the Volturi were right that she was an uncontrollable murder child, waiting another month would probably depopulate the entire Olympic Peninsula. Maybe they just really want that rainforest real estate.
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Jul 18, 2020 04:24
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Been binging this thread over a horrendous past two weeks of stress (my entire dept got the 'you've been selected for possible compulsory redundancy' love note -- two days after we submitted final marks and put to bed the semester from hell. It's an understatement to say that most of this month has been awful). Many thanks, chitoryu12! I'd read your Lani Sarem thread, and took a chance on this one. I vaguely knew the basics of the original Twilight book through sheer osmosis. and have been enjoying this thread, all the commentary, annotations, links. It's been a sanity saver and a heck of a ride. My thoughts: *There is actually an intriguing story/stories within this mess (the books, not your thread, chitoryu12), but yikes. Agreed with everyone who's remarked on how she's barely able to breech the poorer end of fanfiction level writing ability. *I've not seen the films, only the clips here, and highlights from Rifftrax, but you've made it clear that the screenwriter/directors have at least attempted better storytelling. *I am well familiar with the fandom, having had to break up at least one quarrel in a class years back between a diehard fan and someone who was mocking her. Hey, enjoy what you like -- I can't judge, having cut my teeth on V C Andrews. *Over the course of the thread did enjoy revisiting Robert Pattinson's disdain for/bewilderment with Twilight fans. I have really liked Pattinson in his other films -- initially, I was hesitant because of the hype when Twilight (and Twilight reaction videos on Youtube) were a thing -- but similarly to being turned off initially from Leonardo di Caprio and Brad Pitt due to the hype of them as heartthobs and that, it's been great to see them in so many good films and good acting roles. Anyway, dipping out again now -- I look forward to the 50 Shades of Grey thread. I have actually read that, annotating it as I went, as a group of us read it whilst making marginal comments, sort of round-robin style. 
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Jul 18, 2020 12:02
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Ms Boods posted:*I've not seen the films, only the clips here, and highlights from Rifftrax, but you've made it clear that the screenwriter/directors have at least attempted better storytelling. The Rifftrax are worth watching. There's a reason these are their most well-known ones. I couldn't get through the first 2 movies without them. (Things pick up by the 3rd, the 4th is ok, and the 5th is actually pretty good, in a popcorn flick way.) If you don't feel like sitting through all of them, I'd do the 4th and 5th Rifftrax at least.
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Jul 18, 2020 15:18
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hyperhazard posted:The Rifftrax are worth watching. There's a reason these are their most well-known ones. I couldn't get through the first 2 movies without them. (Things pick up by the 3rd, the 4th is ok, and the 5th is actually pretty good, in a popcorn flick way.) If you don't feel like sitting through all of them, I'd do the 4th and 5th Rifftrax at least. Those Rifftrax are on my to-do list, especially having read through this whole thread! That, and how utterly fey Mike especially gets whenever they do anything with English actors/characters. I have a heck of a time synching up the trax with the video, tho, on the commentary-only ones. (I don't have a smart phone or tablet to use the app they've got). Count me in as someone else who had no idea where the storyline was going (as I suspect the author didn't, either)! I'm actually tempted to get a copy of Midnight Sun although I'm prepared for disappointment. A few years back someone attempted to write a version of Flowers in the Attic from Christopher's POV, and whilst I had a lot of guilty-pleasure anticipation, the actual realisation of the book roundly sucks.
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Jul 18, 2020 17:03
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hyperhazard posted:The Rifftrax are worth watching. There's a reason these are their most well-known ones. I couldn't get through the first 2 movies without them. (Things pick up by the 3rd, the 4th is ok, and the 5th is actually pretty good, in a popcorn flick way.) If you don't feel like sitting through all of them, I'd do the 4th and 5th Rifftrax at least. The fifth also contains the greatest act of trolling ever committed on a book fandom. Ms Boods posted:I'm actually tempted to get a copy of Midnight Sun although I'm prepared for disappointment. A few years back someone attempted to write a version of Flowers in the Attic from Christopher's POV, and whilst I had a lot of guilty-pleasure anticipation, the actual realisation of the book roundly sucks. I read the original draft she spite-posted online. It's not as poorly written as Twilight or Breaking Dawn simply because it's not her first work (or her second work being hastily edited into a new book), though that's not saying much. The bigger problem is that it actually goes very hard in confirming that Edward Cullen is a sociopathic murderer. None of the Cullens come out looking great with it, but it reveals that Edward really is the monster he looks like from the outside and Meyer has no sense of what she's really been writing.
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Jul 18, 2020 20:20
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Theres also something to be said here about how women are told by our culture to read red-flag behavior from men as romantic. It's way easier to internalize that as true than it is to reject that message. When you do, however, it means by extrapolation that the signifiers of overwhelming true love must necessarily be psychopathic and abusive. "He followed me home when i turned him down, this must mean he really likes me" leads very easily into "he controls where i go, gets angry when i dont obey, and invades every aspect of my life, he must love me that much." So Edward's point of view was never going to be any other way. He can't be, because if he isn't an abusive psychopath, he isn't sending the right cultural signals for "true love." Its the same thing that happened with 50 Shades and the book from Christian's point of view. More and more, Meyer strikes me as a mouthpiece for the toxic cultural behavior and perceptions around love, one that buys wholeheartedly into the toxicity as not just normal but ideal.  , Meyer. Also, get some feminism.(Chitoryu, i think you said you weren't gonna do Midnight Sun? Thats a shame, because id love to hear your perspective on it. I understand if it's too much of a slog, tho.) Edit: i hadnt read the das sporking version, and as i am procrastinating doing actual work, i decided to check it out. Found this little tidbit:  Gee, thanks for the condemnation that totally tells me you dont actually think a teacher lusting after his underage student is more than a minor peccadillo, Meyer. You know, the teacher that you created and wrote about and had complete control over and could have just decided wasn't attracted to his female student. And you even had the sense not to reveal this in the book, but then you did anyway because it's not that bad guys, its totally okay for men in positions of power to be exclusively attracted to underage vulnerable women in your work to the point that it's their only characterization, this is just a little funny thing to make people laugh! I say again, Meyer is a mouthpiece for toxic culture around love and fully believes the toxicity is ideal.
Lysistrata fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 03:33
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Lysistrata posted:(Chitoryu, i think you said you weren't gonna do Midnight Sun? Thats a shame, because id love to hear your perspective on it. I understand if it's too much of a slog, tho.) Originally I wasn't going to do it, because it was just an incomplete draft available for free. Now that the full book is coming out, I will be doing it once this finishes.
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Jul 19, 2020 05:43
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To say im looking forward to it would be wrong, but im looking forward to your commentary at least. 
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Jul 19, 2020 06:01
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chitoryu12 posted:Originally I wasn't going to do it, because it was just an incomplete draft available for free. Now that the full book is coming out, I will be doing it once this finishes. Cool -- I also look forward to it! From what you say above, I'm even more curious to read it -- told by the right author, it (and I include Twilight itself here) could be a cracking horror tale. I wonder how someone like Carolyn Kepnes would handle the material. Also, way, way back when Rifftrax first did Twilight, and people were putting clips of it on YouTube (at one point, someone had put up the entire film + riff!), the first clip I saw of both Rifftrax and anything to do with the book/film franchise was the scene where Edward demonstrates to Bella how fast he can fly? run? them through the forest -- accompanied by Bill Corbett's rendition of 'Yakety Sax.' That's pretty much set the tone of the series for me. Ms Boods fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 09:14
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I like to think that Aro just doesn't get out much and he's decided to turn this trip to the Pacific Northwest into the most roundabout adventure possible. Like, he's going to get there in a rented van wearing flip-flops, an "I Love N.Y." shirt, a Wisconsin Cheese Hat and hauling 900 Slim Jims that he will keep offering to everyone he meets.
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Jul 20, 2020 17:38
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Chapter 30: Irresistiblequote:There was so much to think about. It has been three lines since you declared that Alice's note definitely had to do with Renesmee and you were now super confident that everything would come out fine. quote:How were Edward and I going to explain things to Tanya’s family in the morning? What if they reacted like Irina? What if it turned into a fight? Then it would confirm that vampires aren't actually the super smart predators that the author claims they are. quote:I didn’t know how to fight. How was I going to learn in just a month? Was there any chance at all that I could be taught fast enough that I might be a danger to any one member of the Volturi? Or was I doomed to be totally useless? Just another easily dispatched newborn? You're not already useless except for your status as the most important person? quote:So many answers I needed, but I did not get the chance to ask my questions. Ah, so Jacob is conveniently staying in a form that prevents him from interacting with anyone. quote:After she was deeply under, I put Renesmee in her bed and then went to the front room to ask my questions of Edward. The ones I was able to ask, at any rate; one of the most difficult of problems was the idea of trying to hide anything from him, even with the advantage of my silent thoughts. Why? You lie to him all the time! He accepts just about every lie you tell without question! In the last chapter, you were bragging about it! quote:He stood with his back to me, staring into the fire. Romance novel cliches are much sillier when done through super speed. quote:I’d been planning on needing years just to somewhat organize the overwhelming passion I felt for him physically. And then centuries after that to enjoy it. If we had only a month left together… Well, I didn’t see how I could stand to have this end. For the moment I couldn’t help but be selfish. All I wanted was to love him as much as possible in the limited time given to me. Because it's SO HOPELESS and WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE I mean I was fine two pages ago but WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE quote:It was hard to pull myself away from him when the sun came up, but we had our job to do, a job that might be more difficult than all the rest of our family’s searches put together. As soon as I let myself think of what was coming, I was all tension; it felt like my nerves were being stretched on a rack, thinner and thinner. Oh come on. "Our family has to travel across the entire planet finding allies, but we have the hardest job because we have to convince vampires that the girl with the heartbeat and warm skin isn't a vampire!" quote:“I wish there was a way to get the information we need from Eleazar before we tell them about Nessie,” Edward muttered as we hurriedly dressed in the huge closet that was more reminder of Alice than I wanted at the moment. “Just in case.” "All vampires are extremely volatile for no reason and will just kill anything strange on sight. Aren't you glad you were so obsessed with joining our life?" quote:I pulled Renesmee, still sleeping, from her bed and held her close so that her curls were pressed against my face; her sweet scent, so close, overpowered every other smell. "I can't waste a single second!" I say as I spend at least 8 hours having fear sex. quote:“Edward, will you teach me how to fight?” I asked him, tensed for his reaction, as he held the door for me. So you want her completely helpless, or.... quote:I kept my voice even. “Would you leave me unable to defend myself?” Yes, Edward just almost ripped the goddamn door off its hinges at the thought of having his wife not be completely dependent on him. quote:I nodded, too, and we started toward the big house. We didn’t hurry. "I couldn't waste one second of time today." quote:I wondered what I could do that would have any hope of making a difference. I was a tiny bit special, in my own way—if having a supernaturally thick skull could really be considered special. Was there any use that I could put that toward? Forgetting crucial information from prior books? quote:“What would you say their biggest advantage is? Do they even have a weakness?” Thank you. Couldn't tell on my own. quote:“Alec and Jane are their greatest offense,” he said emotionlessly, like we were talking of a basketball team. “Their defensive players rarely see any real action.” So you're saying Alec isn't an "anesthetic" then. quote:“That would make him only equally as dangerous as Jane,” Edward went on in the same detached voice, “in that they both can incapacitate you, make you into a helpless target. The difference between them is like the difference between Aro and me. Aro hears the mind of only one person at a time. Jane can only hurt the one object of her focus. I can hear everyone at the same time.” When is the last time Edward wasn't either detached and emotionless or wailing in grief and rage in this book? quote:I felt cold as I saw where he was going. “And Alec can incapacitate us all at the same time?” I whispered. Wow! Sounds like he's the most dangerous vampire in the world! Good thing he was talked about before now! quote:We walked in silence for a few seconds. "What the hell are you doing, woman? Don't act like you can affect anything!" quote:I looked straight ahead. “Well, he probably can’t do that to me, can he? If what he does is like Aro and Jane and you. Maybe… if he’s never really had to defend himself… and I learned a few tricks—” This is the best idea you've had for fighting so far and you're immediately panicking and shutting it down! How are we supposed to find anyone in this book sympathetic at this point? The Cullens have gone from badass killers who slaughter newborn armies to spending entire nights frozen in terror and refusing to even consider making plans that don't come directly from a psychic predicting the future. quote:“Maybe, maybe not. It’s the one thing I can do that no one else can. Even if I can just distract him for a while—” Could I last long enough to give the others a chance? If she doesn't, you're absolutely convinced that the alternative is everyone dies. How is that any better? Or would you rather see yourself and your entire family die than try to live without your wife? You can't sacrifice your beloved Bella to save everyone else if that's what it takes, so you'll just ensure everyone goes down in flames for you? quote:I nodded. I would keep my plans to myself, then. First Alec and then, if I was miraculously lucky enough to win, Jane. If I could only even things out—remove the Volturi’s overwhelming offensive advantage. Maybe then there was a chance.… My mind raced ahead. What if I was able to distract or even take them out? Honestly, why would either Jane or Alec ever have needed to learn battle skills? I couldn’t imagine petulant little Jane surrendering her advantage, even to learn. Because normal people don't have a single qualm about potentially killing others. quote:“I have to learn everything. As much as you can possibly cram into my head in the next month,” I murmured. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if this rear end in a top hat decides to torch the entire house with his family in it. quote:Who next, then? I might as well have my plans in order so that, if I did live past attacking Alec, there would be no hesitation in my strike. I tried to think of another situation where my thick skull would give me an advantage. I didn’t know enough about what the others did. Obviously, fighters like the huge Felix were beyond me. I could only try to give Emmett his fair fight there. I didn’t know much about the rest of the Volturi guard, besides Demetri.… You beat Emmett. quote:My face was perfectly smooth as I considered Demetri. Without a doubt, he would be a fighter. There was no other way he could have survived so long, always at the spear point of any attack. And he must always lead, because he was their tracker—the best tracker in the world, no doubt. If there had been one better, the Volturi would have traded up. Aro didn’t surround himself with second best. Ah yes. Because he's their tracker, he clearly leads from the front and is the first into any fight. Therefore he knows how to fight while Alec and Jane (who are both older than Carlisle) are definitely weaklings. quote:If Demetri didn’t exist, then we could run. Whoever was left of us, in any case. My daughter, warm in my arms… Someone could run with her. Jacob or Rosalie, whoever was left. If Demetri didn't exist, you could run before the fight even happened! quote:And… if Demetri didn’t exist, then Alice and Jasper could be safe forever. Is that what Alice had seen? That part of our family could continue? The two of them, at the very least. What? They're not immune to him! Demetri has even met Alice already and can track her! What did she see, that Demetri would be wiped from existence? quote:“Demetri…,” I said. I'm so lost with what Meyer was thinking when she wrote this book. None of it makes sense. It's like 3 drafts were cut and pasted together without edits. quote:I heard Jacob’s heavy paws thudding against the frozen ground. In seconds, he was pacing beside me, his dark eyes focused on Renesmee. "We didn't hurry." quote:“Edward, why do you think Alice told us to ask Eleazar about the Volturi? Has he been in Italy recently or something? What could he know?” "I forgot, you were never told about this incredibly important character who just showed up." quote:I hissed involuntarily. Jacob growled beside me. It's easy to forget Eleazar was even present. I went back and he's mentioned by name twice, never speaks, and is never given a description. quote:Edward’s face was softer now—he smiled a little. “Eleazar is a very gentle person. He wasn’t entirely happy with the Volturi, but he respected the law and its need to be upheld. He felt he was working toward the greater good. He doesn’t regret his time with them. But when he found Carmen, he found his place in this world. They are very similar people, both very compassionate for vampires.” He smiled again. “They met Tanya and her sisters, and they never looked back. They are well suited to this lifestyle. If they’d never found Tanya, I imagine they would have eventually discovered a way to live without human blood on their own.” Still not evil! quote:Edward glanced at Jacob and answered a silent question. “No, he wasn’t one of their warriors, so to speak. He had a gift they found convenient.” It's starting to sound like vampires having special powers is actually the norm! quote:“They let him go?” I asked. “Just like that?” This is likely another Forever Dawn mistake. In the Illustrated Guide, it's revealed that Aro went so far as to murder Marcus's wife (Aro's own sister!) to keep him from leaving the Volturi, something Marcus still doesn't know he committed. So Aro will go to extreme efforts to keep talented people with him. But at the time this was originally written, none of that characterization existed. Aro was just a weird little collector dude. quote:His smile was darker now, a little twisted. “The Volturi aren’t supposed to be the villains, the way they seem to you. They are the foundation of our peace and civilization. Each member of the guard chooses to serve them. It’s quite prestigious; they all are proud to be there, not forced to be there.” Imagine thinking your husband is "twisted" for saying that rules are good. quote:I scowled at the ground. You introduced a human to the supernatural just a few months ago. quote:“Do you really think we can make them stop and listen?” That floating "If." is in the Kindle copy. I think there are other typos in the print version, so I'll check when I get home if my physical copy of the book has these errors. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 20, 2020 |
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Jul 20, 2020 18:31
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quote:He has to really concentrate with humans, though, because the latent ability is so nebulous. When your editor gives you a note, you're supposed to go back and correct it, Meyer, not add a throw-away line that conveniently explains things you forgot. She does this a lot and it's annoying every time. Instead of "whoops, forgot she met him as a human, I'll add a few sentences to that scene" she sticks in a weak justification when the contradiction comes up.
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Jul 20, 2020 19:48
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So are they just going to keep introducing new characters that seem really important right up until the final battle and spend most of said battle explaining why these people important. Like, I'm expecting everyone to show up for the climax and Bella has to be told who Blade is because he's here now too.
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Jul 20, 2020 19:58
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Yeah okay Bella has effortlessly mastered every other part of being a vampire in record time but there’s no way she can learn to fight effectively in a month. Sure.
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Jul 20, 2020 20:02
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Re: Midnight Sun, I have to say this is one of the ugliest covers I've ever seen. I get the symbolism and all, but there's just something viscerally disturbing about it. (It's also incredibly lazy, but that's neither here nor there.)
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Jul 20, 2020 22:25
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hyperhazard posted:Re: Midnight Sun, I have to say this is one of the ugliest covers I've ever seen. I get the symbolism and all, but there's just something viscerally disturbing about it. (It's also incredibly lazy, but that's neither here nor there.) There was a thing on tumblr years ago where someone got super upset at Homestuck fanart of the Signless Sufferer eating a pomegranate because of the 'gore'.
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Jul 21, 2020 01:43
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