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I generally like Egwene quite a bit, but arguing that any criticism of her is because "any time a woman uses her authority or power against the express wishes of a male character it's illegitimate" thinking is a bit much. There's already the issue with the Oath Rod. Retaining it's usage might actually be a necessary thing to make people trust them at least a little bit, because right now, they're far and away seen as the most dishonest channeling organization. So if you combine keeping the Three Oaths with reforming the Aes Sedai to gain the genuine trust of the people, while also using the Kin to show that channelers can be trusted without them, with the medium term goal to abolish the Oaths, that would make sense. Instead Egwene spouts some bullshit how the Three Oaths are what makes Aes Sedai Aes Sedai. As for her reign as Amyrlin after the last battle, just look at how she tries to get hooks into the Wind Finders and the Wise Ones with the goal to eventually bind the to the White Tower. In that meeting when she proposed exchange of Accepted/apprentices/Windfinders in training, her internal monologue makes it clear it's a step to eventually get the White Tower in control over those organizations. In contrast, the White Ones agree with it so other can learn from them. It's pretty disgusting of Egwene imho. Then there are things like her being adamant that Rand is at fault for Asha'man binding Aes Sedai, and how that's totally unacceptable, and Rand better do something about that and he also has to apologize. But when challenged directly by Nynaeve how Egwene would then have to take responsibility for Elaida sending Aes Sedai to wipe out the Black Tower in entirety, she's basically unwilling to do that at all. And also the memorable scene where she complains that compulsion was used on the sisters captures after Dumai's Wells, and how that's a thousand times worse than compulsion being used against non-Aes Sedai. Credit where credit's due, she reminds the Red Ajah that Saidin is now clean and that their purpose must change, and when Silviana replies that men are not to be trusted, she thinks to herself that the Reds will need to move beyond that sentiment. And she's certainly believing that Aes Sedai can learn a great deal from other channeling organizations, which is a far better attitude than most Sisters have. But she also has real flaws, and the biggest imho is that she has bought into Aes Sedai propaganda that the White Tower must "lead" (speak control) basically all channelers. Now that's probably in no small part because she's fantasy pope, head of the organization. The other channeling societies don't have a single all powerful leader (except the Black Tower, being modeled after the White Tower). The Kin and the Wise Ones are councils, and while there's a highest ranking Windfinder, there's a non-channeler in authority over her. So I think it's absolutely believable that Egwene would come to see Aes Sedai dominance over channelers more positively, it's the old "power corrupts" mechanic. This makes her character just more believable to me. I still really like her, but think those are real flaws she has. Which is why her death might be a blessing in disguise for the Aes Sedai. It's also probably not healthy to have a single woman being in charge of the organization for 250+ years, as would have happened if Egwene had survived the last battle. Cadsuane will probably at most have 20 years or so left before dying or retiring into the Kin? But that's idle speculation, sadly (RIP Jordan  ). And Cadsuane has her own flaws. And unrelated, Egwene deserved her very badass death scene, plus nearly as badass pep-talk giving as a ghost to Rand. Also, why are we discussing Egwene dying in unmarked spoilers? Wasn't there somebody here who in the last few pages said that they're just now reading Towers of Midnight?
Torrannor fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 06:14
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Should the White Tower have been written as incompetent as it was? When I first started the books it was a neat idea, a tower of mysterious lady wizards manipulating the world. It turning out to be a bumbling fiasco when we got more acquainted with it was kind of a let down.
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Jul 17, 2020 06:15
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Colonel Cool posted:Should the White Tower have been written as incompetent as it was? When I first started the books it was a neat idea, a tower of mysterious lady wizards manipulating the world. It turning out to be a bumbling fiasco when we got more acquainted with it was kind of a let down. I mean...its a pretty consistent theme in the real world and in human stories in general.
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Jul 17, 2020 06:44
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Probably not. But the White Tower basically does dick all for most of the books other than get taken over by the Black Ajah. So does the Black Tower for that matter.
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Jul 17, 2020 06:50
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Invalid Validation posted:Probably not. But the White Tower basically does dick all for most of the books other than get taken over by the Black Ajah. So does the Black Tower for that matter. The Black Tower only really gets started in book 5 anyway, and by book 6 they can disperse an army of Aiel. In book 8 they and Rand foil a full scale Seanchan attack on Illian. And it's of course a little bit problematic when you set up a darkfriend as headmaster of your male wizarding school, and then basically abandon the school. They have an excuse, the White Tower does not.
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Jul 17, 2020 07:19
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If only there was a real world example of a white building filled with incompetent assholes only out to enrich themselves and hold onto power when they should be serving the population they come from, but alas
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Jul 17, 2020 09:52
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Why does Jordan exclusively use "sick up" when talking about vomiting. It's a phrase I've never heard before and every time it bothers me
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Jul 17, 2020 10:17
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'Sick up' is a Deep South colloquialism. Jordan was pretty good at scrubbing out American colloquialisms, but it looks like that one made it through.
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Jul 17, 2020 10:25
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Interesting! I wouldn't mind if it was used consistently for certain groups or people or whatever like the Two Rivers folk, but literally everyone saying it every time is so jarring. I wouldn't notice if I wasn't listening to the audio book to be fair!
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Jul 17, 2020 11:07
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Invalid Validation posted:Probably not. But the White Tower basically does dick all for most of the books other than get taken over by the Black Ajah. So does the Black Tower for that matter. Admittedly the story of how a thousand powerful competent wizards flew in to save the day while the protagonist did nothing would be a novel story, but ultimately not that interesting.
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Jul 17, 2020 13:18
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On top of all that, Jordan wanted a world where disorder and destruction could be positive. Just about every leader from the old order has antiquated views that need to be cleared away before the Dragon’s better world can be ushered in. A final conflict and compromise between the Dragon and the White Tower was critical to Jordan’s vision. I don’t need to tell anyone about the obvious symbolism of the flame of Tar Valon and the Dragon’s Flame. Gotta have a yang to that yin.
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Jul 17, 2020 14:38
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Colonel Cool posted:Should the White Tower have been written as incompetent as it was? When I first started the books it was a neat idea, a tower of mysterious lady wizards manipulating the world. It turning out to be a bumbling fiasco when we got more acquainted with it was kind of a let down. Catching up with the thread and reading the last couple of pages I'm struck at the similarity of the Tower's faults and the morass, cruelty, and incompetence of any elite political institution, most especially the one centered around D.C. (pre Trump of course). Just a bunch of ppl who walk on air separated from everybody always getting things wrong to no apparent effect.
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Jul 20, 2020 06:09
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Shageletic posted:Catching up with the thread and reading the last couple of pages I'm struck at the similarity of the Tower's faults and the morass, cruelty, and incompetence of any elite political institution, most especially the one centered around D.C. (pre Trump of course). moiraine is hillary lan is bill rand is trumop
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Jul 20, 2020 15:09
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Nonsense. Elaida is Trump, Alviarin is Mitch McConnell.
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Jul 20, 2020 20:53
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Hey don’t get my hopes up Trump will be collared and taken away.
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Jul 20, 2020 20:54
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I was thinking more the consulting class, the wealthy failson and daughters that populate every campaign and think tank. Live in million dollar townhouses they own in Georgetown while pontificating about that lower class America really needs to start within their means. Just a combination of obliviousness/somewhat good intentions/ineptitude/and arrogance.
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Jul 20, 2020 21:42
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Jordan really nails the pettiness of politics and institutions. It strikes true way more than the grand plans driven by mastermind plotters than you tend to see in genre fiction.
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Jul 21, 2020 02:28
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Basileus777 posted:Jordan really nails the pettiness of politics and institutions. It strikes true way more than the grand plans driven by mastermind plotters than you tend to see in genre fiction. Yeah it almost feels like anything the white tower actually managed to do was by accident, not plan. One of my favorite bits of this was Bryne asking (after Siuan basically told him to) why she had berated him in front of everyone, she was like "There was a border lord who could have united that country", he asked "I haven't heard of him, what happened", and she admitted that he died in a random border sheep raid. GRAND PLANS
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Jul 21, 2020 02:33
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Mad Hamish posted:Nonsense. Elaida is Trump, Alviarin is Mitch McConnell.
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Jul 21, 2020 13:41
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th3t00t posted:Or is Trump Gawyn? The "failest" of failsons. Just makes the worst decisions and then doubles down rather than take the chance to redeem himself. Nah Trump isn't Gawyn levels of idiot. Trump is the fake spymaster for Pedron Niall who thinks he's the real deal but is instead a useful distraction for the people doing the real work.
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Jul 21, 2020 13:49
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Basileus777 posted:Jordan really nails the pettiness of politics and institutions. It strikes true way more than the grand plans driven by mastermind plotters than you tend to see in genre fiction. Well Thom is in the background weaving his webs of intrigue.
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Jul 21, 2020 14:30
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Democratic Pirate posted:Well Thom is in the background weaving his webs of intrigue. Yeah and you just see hints of the evidence of his actions without any other signs. Galldrian dying, the Tairen lords (or at least the ones opposed to Rand) all being at each other's throats, the pile of bodies behind the rock at Shayol Gul... No gloating, just dangerous competence
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Jul 21, 2020 14:54
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th3t00t posted:Or is Trump Gawyn? The "failest" of failsons. Just makes the worst decisions and then doubles down rather than take the chance to redeem himself. I see the comparison because Elaida is also incredibly easily-manipulated by whoever she last spoke to as long as they tell her how special and important she is. At one point she's planning on building a palace for the Amyrlin which will be higher than the White Tower, that's Trump activity right there.
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Jul 21, 2020 15:46
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Also Gawyn was stupid but he was a good warrior/leader.
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Jul 21, 2020 15:50
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hurin is bernie siuan is putin masema is kanye west
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Jul 21, 2020 16:12
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I'm gonna let you finish but the Lord Dragon can make wolves fight for him and I'm gonna let you finish but he's here to fight the Dark One with a glowing sword of fire
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Jul 21, 2020 16:39
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There's a WoT blind read, and the author just finished Tanchico. Here are his thoughts about Elayne:quote:I remember way back in The Eye of the World, when she told Rand about how she questioned Elaida, and the use of the Power to grow beautiful gardens in the palace, while outside their walls winter wouldn’t end and crops wouldn’t grow. Even then, her commitment to justice was based in empathy for others, rather than a sort of theoretical understanding like the one Amathera seems to hold. And yet that empathy is tempered—complimented might be a better word—by a practicality and levelheadedness that surpasses most of the other characters in The Wheel of Time, especially the younger generation. I figured this must be catnip for the thread.
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Jul 21, 2020 20:26
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In general I liked elayne a lot early on and then the longer the series went the worse she got
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Jul 21, 2020 20:33
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Yeah on my reread I didn't get the hate until she showed me exactly why
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Jul 21, 2020 20:41
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Is the blind read on the forums, or offsite?
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Jul 21, 2020 20:51
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How are u posted:Is the blind read on the forums, or offsite? https://www.tor.com/2020/07/21/read...-rising-part-37
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Jul 21, 2020 20:56
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She really didn’t become insufferable until she went back to Caemlyn and got preggo.
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Jul 21, 2020 20:57
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Elaine heard that story about that Andorian queen rallying her troops by grabbing the flag and riding at enemy lines and the lesson she took from that wasn't "desperate times call for desperate measures." It was, "it's the queen's job to take batshit crazy risks whenever she has the opportunity and if you don't you're not as good as those other queens." Combining that with her misinterpretation of Min's viewings basically destroyed her ability to assess risk.
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Jul 21, 2020 22:30
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Invalid Validation posted:She really didn’t become insufferable until she went back to Caemlyn and got preggo. This, the whole andoran succession plot was the loving worst.
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Jul 21, 2020 22:48
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Guy on another forum pointed out that early Elayne spent much of her time trying to mediate, making her much more suite for the Grey Ajah than the Green. Now I wonder if she wasn't deliberately trying to compose a Green mindset.
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Jul 21, 2020 22:56
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...I would have much preferred her to be Grey. That would make so much sense in a civil war, too!
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Jul 21, 2020 23:00
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I still think Elayne would’ve been more interesting if she had a real opponent for the succession. Arymilla has one scene and it’s so dull. Jarid’s role is so minor that Sanderson literally had his troops desert him because he had failed to accomplish anything.
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Jul 21, 2020 23:02
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Gnoman posted:Guy on another forum pointed out that early Elayne spent much of her time trying to mediate, making her much more suite for the Grey Ajah than the Green. Now I wonder if she wasn't deliberately trying to compose a Green mindset. That fits with the "Well, I guess I have to be Green, since I've bonded one warder and plan on another."
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Jul 21, 2020 23:07
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Vavrek posted:That fits with the "Well, I guess I have to be Green, since I've bonded one warder and plan on another." Between this and Moiraine passing Lan's bond instead of just releasing him before she did what she did, I assume that the scene at the end where Alanna just releases Rand's bond before she dies was kinda an rear end pull.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:08
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Donkey posted:Between this and Moiraine passing Lan's bond instead of just releasing him before she did what she did, I assume that the scene at the end where Alanna just releases Rand's bond before she dies was kinda an rear end pull. I’ve wondered about this. Pevara talks about releasing Androl from her bond at the beginning of AMOL, but that’s from the same book. I can’t remember the exact scene, but I know there’s a Moiraine perspective in either TSR or TFoH where Moiraine explains she didn’t want Lan to be unbonded because he’d immediately gently caress off to his death fighting the shadow. With Birgitte, I guess she had nothing more important to do until Gaidal was reborn.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:20
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