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Prairie Bus posted:I’ve wondered about this. Pevara talks about releasing Androl from her bond at the beginning of AMOL, but that’s from the same book. yeah iirc that's pretty much one of her reasonings. lan was already pretty dead-set on doing incredibly stupid poo poo and the only way to keep him around and maybe change his perspective on that was for him to still have a bond.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:22
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I don’t know if it was ever in the books or I imagined it but I didn’t get the impression that the bond could be dissolved.
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Jul 22, 2020 01:02
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Prairie Bus posted:I still think Elayne would’ve been more interesting if she had a real opponent for the succession. Arymilla has one scene and it’s so dull. Jarid’s role is so minor that Sanderson literally had his troops desert him because he had failed to accomplish anything. You'd have to shuffle around a lot of the succession war to accommodate it, but with the "Elayne as a gray" idea I could see Daelin using her backers to actively challenge Elayne. Not because she wanted the throne, but as leverage to get Elayne to listen and grow some last bit to become Queen-worthy. Instead of (or in addition to since those guys wind up so toothless, if you can balance it well) the politicking progressing into warfare, have a warfare setup that turns into politics. It worked to muddy the situation for the story, but it was frustrating that Elayne's biggest threat in terms of someone her supporters actually liked was just "no I don't want it stop trying to make this a plot point you guys."
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Jul 22, 2020 02:29
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I think the worry with Birgitte was that the bond was all that kept her alive at first, and they didn't know what would happen if Elayne simply released her from it.
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Jul 22, 2020 04:21
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Johnny Joestar posted:yeah iirc that's pretty much one of her reasonings. lan was already pretty dead-set on doing incredibly stupid poo poo and the only way to keep him around and maybe change his perspective on that was for him to still have a bond. I don't know that Lan would have immediately left for the blight, considering he offered to go with Nynaeve to Tanchico and abandon Moiraine only a short time before that, but that is a possibility. One more piece of circumstantial evidence for the bond not being breakable: Birgitte said that when Barashelle bonded some guy during the Trolloc Wars she had to pass his bond to somebody else (as opposed to just breaking it), remain an Accepted for a few more years, and then bond Anselan, a grumpy old man. I suppose passing it could have been one way to ensure that she really gave the bond up instead of just faking it but I never really got that impression.
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Jul 22, 2020 05:24
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Donkey posted:I don't know that Lan would have immediately left for the blight, considering he offered to go with Nynaeve to Tanchico and abandon Moiraine only a short time before that, but that is a possibility. It was a punishment. She didn't just have to give up the bond, she had to give it to somebody else so that there was no chance of her getting it back.
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Jul 22, 2020 05:48
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But if it is easily broken then why wouldn’t you just have an army of warders? You could fight a war with supermen and then just let them go after.
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Jul 22, 2020 06:32
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There's no direct evidence for it being breakable in RJ's text. But it's one of those things that logically might exist so RJ said it was possible to do at a signing.
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Jul 22, 2020 06:42
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Invalid Validation posted:But if it is easily broken then why wouldn’t you just have an army of warders? You could fight a war with supermen and then just let them go after. I'm pretty sure someone - I don't remember who - actually says 'yo, we should do this' in AMOL
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Jul 22, 2020 08:05
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I think there's some kind of strong emotional feedback that happens to the surviving party when a bond is broken by death. Warders go suicidal berserker and go off to die against the Shadow, and sisters collapse into crying wrecks. That's the reason why Moiraine passes Lan's bond - she wants him to have a normal amount of grief about his dead friend, instead of a supernatural amount of grief compelling him to his death. It's also why an army wouldn't work - if one of those soldiers dies, the channeler they're bonded to will probably be useless for the rest of that fight, and for that matter the rest of the soldiers are probably going to get a lot of backwash grief that makes them useless or mostly so. And of course if the enemy can take out the channeler, then all of the soldiers are going to stop doing tactics or listening to orders and will be easier pickings than if they were never bonded. (Is the Myrddraal-Trolloc bond a corrupted version of the warder bond?) Also specific to Aes Sedai, a lot of their behavior is motivated by the need to appear like they're really special and important and above it all. An Aes Sedai's place in battle is to stride around majestically throwing fireballs and inspiring the troops. They're not going to agree to a plan where they hide in the back as glorified network hubs.
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Jul 22, 2020 08:52
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I imagine dissolving the bond is one of those soft retcons that either happened because Jordan hadn't really thought it through in the earlier books (see also: shadowspawn and Traveling) or because Sanderson thought it cool (see also: a lot of Travel mechanics). Hard to say which.
TURTLE SLUT fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 09:06
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Invalid Validation posted:But if it is easily broken then why wouldn’t you just have an army of warders? You could fight a war with supermen and then just let them go after. Cause the Aes Sedai eats the backlash when one of them dies, so you're not gonna find very many Aes Sedai willing to sign up to potentially eat multiple Warder deaths per battle because you're using them as frontline troops. We're talking "Siaun and Leane cry themselves to sleep for months and Egwene turns into a wizard berserker" here. It would be a great way to ruin an Aes Sedai. Even worse, you could lose the Aes Sedai bound to a whole squad of warders for some reason and watch them all go berserk. And that's not getting into the whole "Aes Sedai are too proud to just be a power source for a squad of warden-bound soldiers thing, which would be a huge issue.
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Jul 22, 2020 09:44
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I guess I'm confused by the actual timing of the passing of Lan's bond. Did Moiraine pass it prior to going through the door or did it pass automatically because she had created some kind of hand-off weave contingent on her death? None of the references I can find online are clear about it and from my own recollection, Lan was a mess after Moiraine died, going so far as to sleep with Myrelle (I believe) during the recovery process. My original understanding was that Moiraine held the bond up until the instant she "died". However it passed, it had the same effect on Lan as if she had died, but this was mitigated by Myrelle being pro at nursing warders back to health.
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Jul 22, 2020 13:08
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While Jordan isn't explicit about the timing, there's a part of Moiraine's brief POV that leads me to believe it's just a contingent weave: Fires of Heaven Ch 52 posted:Wiping the blood from her mouth, Moiraine crawled out from beneath the tail of the wagon and rose unsteadily to her feet, the sound of a man’s laughter in her ears. In spite of herself, her eyes darted, searching for Lan, found him lying almost against the foggy gray wall of the dome that stretched overhead. He twitched, perhaps trying to find strength to rise, perhaps dying. She forced him out of her mind. He had saved her life so many times that by rights it should have belonged to him, but she had long since done what she could to see that he survived his lone war with the Shadow. Now he must live or die without her. There is also no specific mention in that POV of her doing anything to release the bond. Lan is down and out and wakes up to find that his bond with her is broken and that he is already being Compelled by Myrelle to come to her. Just cause I have the ebook open, here's the relevant dialogue from Lan, which also supports this: Fires of Heaven Ch 53 posted:“Moiraine did something to me that has not been done in hundreds of years, not since the time when Aes Sedai still sometimes bonded a Warder whether he wanted it or not. She altered my bond so it passed to another when she died. Now I must find that other, become one of her Warders. I am one, already. I can feel her faintly, somewhere far to the west, and she can feel me. I must go, Rand. It is part of what Moiraine did. She said she would not allow me time to die avenging her.” He gripped the reins as if holding Mandarb back, as if holding himself back from digging his spurs in. “If you ever see Nynaeve again, tell her . . .” For an instant that stone face crumpled in anguish; an instant, then it was granite again. He muttered under his breath, but Rand heard. “A clean wound heals quickest and pains shortest.” Aloud, he said, “Tell her I’ve found someone else. Green sisters are sometimes as close to their Warders as other women are to husbands. In every way. Tell her I’ve gone to be a Green sister’s lover, as well as her sword. These things happen. It has been a long time since I’ve seen her.” However, we know Lan is not a reliable source here because Moiraine actually isn't dead, just stuck in Finn-land. He is repeating what she told him a few books prior though, which means that it's possible that is what Moiraine believed the weave did as well - though who knows with Aes Sedai. I haven't read the last few books as many times, so I don't really remember if she gives clarification on any of this after she gets rescued. aparmenideanmonad fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 13:53
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Invalid Validation posted:She really didn’t become insufferable until she went back to Caemlyn and got preggo.
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Jul 22, 2020 16:50
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Ponsonby Britt posted:(Is the Myrddraal-Trolloc bond a corrupted version of the warder bond?) Not intentionally, the warder bond is a post-Age of Legends discovery unknown to the Forsaken in their time.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:32
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Up to POD on a reread. Love to see Elyas giving Perrin the coursebook for Saldean wife 101 and Perrin deciding to ignore him.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:51
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Drone Jett posted:Not intentionally, the warder bond is a post-Age of Legends discovery unknown to the Forsaken in their time. Are there any mentions of the Trolloc-Myrddraal link from the Forsaken or Lews Therin? It could be that that ability was developed post-Breaking as well.
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Jul 22, 2020 21:09
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https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27warder%20bond%27 RJ said in 2004 that releasing bonds was possible and done as needed if a Warder wasn't suitable. Also that in theory a myrdraal or an Ogier could be bonded too!
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Jul 22, 2020 23:46
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Democratic Pirate posted:Up to POD on a reread. Love to see Elyas giving Perrin the coursebook for Saldean wife 101 and Perrin deciding to ignore him. Ahhh why am I giving a man advice on his wife, good way to get stabbed Or something like that. silvergoose fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jul 23, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 23:48
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Democratic Pirate posted:Up to POD on a reread. Love to see Elyas giving Perrin the coursebook for Saldean wife 101 and Perrin deciding to ignore him. "Perrin, do you yell at your wife?" "Of course not, I love her!" "You don't love your wife if you don't yell at her, Perrin"
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Jul 23, 2020 00:01
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minema posted:https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27warder%20bond%27 That explanation makes sense. Based on the setting I'm willing to buy that it's something that wasn't done because of tradition, though I still wish that it was hinted at in the text first.
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Jul 23, 2020 00:42
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Imagine an ogier warder. Complete death machine.
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Jul 23, 2020 00:49
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Invalid Validation posted:Imagine an ogier warder. Complete death machine. With Loial's advocacy for the Ogier to get more actively involved in the outside world instead of just noping out and the increase in Seanchan influence post Last Battle I could see it happening eventually. Just make sure it's an Aiel Aes Sedai that gets the Ogier warder 
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Jul 23, 2020 01:09
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I can imagine a pretty goofy comedy tale told by bards of the windfinder with an ogier warder, comfortable neither on land nor on the sea. ...or a bleak tragedy where they can never be together, but that's less fun.
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Jul 23, 2020 01:15
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bell jar posted:"Perrin, do you yell at your wife?" Perrin: “I can’t trust Elyas, that dude is crazy!” “I can’t trust Faile’s parents, Saldeans are crazy!” “I can’t trust my superhuman nose that smells Faile’s emotions, women are crazy!”
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Jul 23, 2020 03:10
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Democratic Pirate posted:Perrin: To be fair to Perrin, Faile was a little unhelpful with what she wanted, Faile's parents were a little nuts, and Elyas was a dude who escaped as a Warder and lived in the woods talking to wolves.
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Jul 23, 2020 03:28
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seaborgium posted:To be fair to Perrin, Faile was a little unhelpful with what she wanted, Faile's parents were a little nuts, and Elyas was a dude who escaped as a Warder and lived in the woods talking to wolves.
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Jul 23, 2020 03:34
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Also Perrin actually.. took Elyas's advice. Every other Faile PoV after that notes how pleased she is that he's finally started respecting her enough to yell or argue her down on something.
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Jul 23, 2020 03:46
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perrin's supersenses didn't really help him out much, at least at the beginning. the issue wasn't knowing what emotions faile was feeling, it was that he had like no loving clue why she was feeling the way she did. knowing someone threw a brick at you is great and all but knowing who and why they did it is another thing entirely and usually good to find out.
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Jul 23, 2020 04:05
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Or, that her emotional scents are components of the whole and focusing on one of them to the exclusion of the others is dumb
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Jul 23, 2020 05:36
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Johnny Joestar posted:perrin's supersenses didn't really help him out much, at least at the beginning. the issue wasn't knowing what emotions faile was feeling, it was that he had like no loving clue why she was feeling the way she did. knowing someone threw a brick at you is great and all but knowing who and why they did it is another thing entirely and usually good to find out. Yeah, "knowing that somebody is mad at you" and "knowing why somebody is mad at you" are two entirely different things.
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Jul 23, 2020 07:17
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Yea but he never thought to ask her or even think harder than women be crazy.
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Jul 23, 2020 14:29
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea but he never thought to ask her or even think harder than women be crazy. gosh that's certainly unrealistic *looks directly into camera*
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Jul 23, 2020 14:39
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given how the entire series has issues that could be solved by people just taking like 5 minutes to talk to each other, one of the most realistic ones is 'stubborn guy refuses to engage with his significant other by asking about their feelings'
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Jul 23, 2020 15:42
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Johnny Joestar posted:given how the entire series has issues that could be solved by people just taking like 5 minutes to talk to each other, one of the most realistic ones is 'stubborn guy refuses to engage with his significant other by asking about their feelings' Stubborn guy rejects advice, empirical data, and personal experience to pursue prejudice-based course of action in all things
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Jul 23, 2020 16:14
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if it's good enough for the two rivers it's good enough for this political powderkeg of nations constantly bickering and going at each other's throats due to their frantic scrabbling to secure their own existence after the end times have occurred, goddammit
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Jul 23, 2020 16:17
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ChickenWing posted:gosh that's certainly unrealistic Definitely not unrealistic, but having superpowers that tell you how someone is feeling should give you a slight edge.
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Jul 23, 2020 16:37
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Invalid Validation posted:Definitely not unrealistic, but having superpowers that tell you how someone is feeling should give you a slight edge. I mean it does give him a slight edge. Its not like the problem lasts forever, it happened for like 6 months at the beginning of their marriage. That time is just stretched out over like five books with a lot of internal monologues.
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Jul 23, 2020 16:59
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Perrin's entire problem was the fact that he could not understand what his supet-smell powers were telling him. It was enough to clue him in that something was off, but he still had to comprehend and adjust to the cultural difference before it made any sense.
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Jul 23, 2020 17:11
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