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Zore posted:I thought it was more he was second best at everything up to and including being like an inch shorter than Lews Therin. And he was bitterly jealous that he just wasn't good enough in any single area to outshine him Wasn't that Demandred?
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Jul 29, 2020 03:09
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Wasn't that Demandred? Yes, that's right it was Demandred. Sammael was just the dude who got pissed when Lews Therin got supreme command of the forces of light because he was totally a better general and betrayed them for it. They're the two Forsaken who explicitly turn to the Shadow because they're super jealous of him
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Jul 29, 2020 03:12
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Experiments PAIN Too much flesh desires Jealous Jealous Jealous (and short) Jealous (of Ilyena) Didn't get tenure Wanted to play music forever Dreams?? No one could live up to her monkitude Power??? OBLIVION
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Jul 29, 2020 03:20
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Yeah, when you put it that way, I actually have the most sympathy for Mesaana.
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Jul 29, 2020 04:11
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Ok, let's see, without a cheat sheetsilvergoose posted:Experiments (Aginor)
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Jul 29, 2020 04:15
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Yeppers
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Jul 29, 2020 04:17
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Shoulda been more Demandred yelling at Rand from across the countryside. He actually seemed very intimidating and dangerous. I kind of have a picture in my mind of a brick shithouse ready to crush people. I bet that coin armor looked rad as gently caress.
Invalid Validation fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 05:16
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I've started a re-read and had forgot that in book 6 the plot kinda relys on the aes saidai deciding that when someone gets stabbed and told 'stay away from the dragon' that the obvious answer is the dragon ordered it. I never really thought about how much the thesis of the series is 'everyone is acting on incomplete information'
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Aug 2, 2020 01:43
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:I've started a re-read and had forgot that in book 6 the plot kinda relys on the aes saidai deciding that when someone gets stabbed and told 'stay away from the dragon' that the obvious answer is the dragon ordered it. Honestly the way he handled rumor, fog of war, having to make decisions without full knowledge is one of the biggest strengths of the series. It allows for a lot of conflict and tension that is believable.
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Aug 2, 2020 01:48
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A pretty huge percentage of the common complaints are from people forgetting that whole incomplete information part.
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Aug 2, 2020 02:52
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Gnoman posted:A pretty huge percentage of the common complaints are from people forgetting that whole incomplete information part. It does have some merit though. Eventually a significant amount of people can Travel, and they actually use it to send messages on a regular basis. The Black Tower uses it fairly often to scout out areas where their armies are to find the enemy as you don't need a very good impression of the area to go to somewhere close. There's no reason the Aes Sedai, known to have agents and spies everywhere, wouldn't be using that constantly to find out about areas where they have concerns. Not bringing the three Ta'varen together is one thing, but at some point someone should have said "Ok, the Dragon is definitely back. Maybe we should actually talk to the Sea Folk and the Aes Sedai and some of the other countries about the upcoming apocalypse". The Aes Sedai alone should have been using it to try and control all the other countries, or poo poo, just contacting their spy networks in a faster way than pigeons. That's where my frustration comes from. It's one thing to have incomplete information, but to willfully ignore a way to help mitigate that is something else entirely.
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Aug 2, 2020 05:17
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I've probably complained about it before in this thread but Rand cleaned Saidin and didn't tell anyone. He had a full entourage of theoretically capable, intelligent people like Cadsuane, Verin, Nyneave, and a dozen or so other Aes Sedai and none of them decided to tell anyone. They should have been sending messages to everyone on the continent saying what they had done. Sure most people wouldn't believe them immediately, but anyone who can channel would at least have some explanation for the enormous beacon of power they felt for an entire day and they would have to ponder it. You have to start priming them to believe it eventually and it's just absurd that no one decided to spread the word. For all that I love these books and that the constant theme of misinformation or incomplete information works most of the time that one event rubs me the wrong way every time I think about it. It does not help that I vaguely recall some interview with RJ from way back when Crossroads came out talking briefly about its poor reception and he said something about planning it to be a book about the world reacting to Winter's Heart's climax but realized halfway in that wasn't working and just kinda started moving forward rather than rewriting it. But I feel like half the reason it didn't work is because no one can react when they have no idea what happened, it would have made more sense for them to be told, and it might've made his original plan work. Just so frustrating to think about.
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Aug 2, 2020 05:34
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the most annoying part of 6 is how Jordan realized the dream world is too hard to write secrets around, so he finagled it so no one could actually use it once it was revealed.
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Aug 2, 2020 09:06
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Nobody believed it was cleansed anyways, that included actual male channelers. It was a very cool event for the readers but ultimately it was just an excuse not to have to write about Rand going insane anymore.
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Aug 2, 2020 14:47
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seaborgium posted:It does have some merit though. Eventually a significant amount of people can Travel, and they actually use it to send messages on a regular basis. The Black Tower uses it fairly often to scout out areas where their armies are to find the enemy as you don't need a very good impression of the area to go to somewhere close. There's no reason the Aes Sedai, known to have agents and spies everywhere, wouldn't be using that constantly to find out about areas where they have concerns.
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Aug 2, 2020 17:16
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yeah i mean, siuan and moiraine kind of had a plan in mind to help ease people into the idea of the dragon being back but that sort of imploded because other members of the 'Eternal Plotting and Backroom Deals' club decided that this plot was apparently too far, all kind of spurred on by the literal evil people
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Aug 2, 2020 18:03
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Ghislaineof YOSPOS posted:this was basically siuans plan right? keep him on a leash and clear his path, make sure he survives to the last battle. then elaida came along and was basically being manipulated by the black ajah into never doing anything useful It was, I'm not saying poo poo wouldn't have gotten destroyed by idiots/Black Ajah or whoever, but the fact that literally 2 people had that idea and everyone else said "I don't know, maybe we should steal the next door neighbors cows after they vomit beetles until they die" is kind of odd. I'll admit there's a lot of stuff that is explained by incomplete information, that's all good. But there comes a point where it's just willful ignorance and that's what I think a lot of people have a problem with. It's just easier to say no one talks to each other as that happens in lots of media and it's frustrating there too.
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Aug 2, 2020 18:20
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seaborgium posted:It was, I'm not saying poo poo wouldn't have gotten destroyed by idiots/Black Ajah or whoever, but the fact that literally 2 people had that idea and everyone else said "I don't know, maybe we should steal the next door neighbors cows after they vomit beetles until they die" is kind of odd. I mean it's also incredibly realistic. See: the U.S. response to COVID-19
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Aug 2, 2020 18:28
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Yeah I work retail and there are people who keep telling me it's fake. Three people that work at my store have died from covid so far
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Aug 2, 2020 18:33
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Zore posted:I mean it's also incredibly realistic. See: the U.S. response to COVID-19 You beat me to it but never underestimate the willful stupidity of people, particularly when they are jostling for power
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Aug 2, 2020 18:57
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Yeah I work retail and there are people who keep telling me it's fake. Three people that work at my store have died from covid so far woah, how many people work at your store?
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Aug 2, 2020 19:03
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UltraRed posted:woah, how many people work at your store? 180 to 200 iirc.
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Aug 2, 2020 21:05
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seaborgium posted:It was, I'm not saying poo poo wouldn't have gotten destroyed by idiots/Black Ajah or whoever, but the fact that literally 2 people had that idea and everyone else said "I don't know, maybe we should steal the next door neighbors cows after they vomit beetles until they die" is kind of odd. To me it's a strength of the series that characters act within the confines of the institutions they're in, notable exception being obvious. My favorite example right now is Carridin. He has realistic motivations, acts in a way that seems rational to achieve his goals, and winds up being forced to make decisions that seem irrational but are really his only choices given the available options. Elaida isn't going to reach out to rand and try to help him, not because it's irrational, but because it's not what the white tower and especially her red ajah would do as an organization. Many characters talk about duty and expectations being a burden that prevents them from doing what they think is right (or in some cases easy.) I think this is an underanalyzed aspect of the series that helps to set it above most other fantasy series and fiction in general.
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Aug 2, 2020 22:32
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There's also the matter of them having received enough information that their prejudices fill in the rest of the blanks and that being too much of an inertial force to change. Pedron Niall is one of those where he keeps trying to fit all the pieces of the puzzle into a framework he understands until absolutely too late to do what he needed to be doing. e.g. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Stubborn guy rejects advice, empirical data, and personal experience to pursue prejudice-based course of action in all things But most/all of the characters tend to fall into that trap at some point or other. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 22:54
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:There's also the matter of them having received enough information that their prejudices fill in the rest of the blanks and that being too much of an inertial force to change. Pedron Niall is one of those where he keeps trying to fit all the pieces of the puzzle into a framework he understands until absolutely too late to do what he needed to be doing. well said. Jordan doesn't show you the empirical data by accident and then forget about it when characters make decisions. Throughout his career Niall (and pretty much everyone else in power) has gotten to where he is by scheming, using the power of the whitecloaks as a hammer and velvet glove, manipulating events and using leverage on people. that's who he is, his methods have worked for him up to this point, if he suddenly started acting in good faith for the best interests of the world at large it would actually be pretty lovely writing. there's a lot of parallels you can draw right now like someone already has upthread to the Coronavirus in the US. There's a big extrinsic force pushing institutions and the individuals within them to work for the public good, and making it rational to do so , but the institutions have not caught up to the new reality and are continuing to act as they always have.
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Aug 2, 2020 23:04
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Ghislaineof YOSPOS posted:well said. Jordan doesn't show you the empirical data by accident and then forget about it when characters make decisions. Yeah Niall was great because he was a canny and brilliant operator, recognized that Tarmon Gaidon was coming, and sought the unification of the continent to meet it (with him at the head leading the forces of Light, naturally) And his beliefs and inclinations led him to dismiss information about the Seanchan from an incredibly trusted agent, disbelieve the broken White Tower as a trick or ruse, and of the dissent within his ranks that ultimately got him killed. By the stupid, gullible Omerna of all people no less
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Aug 2, 2020 23:17
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It makes absolutely perfect sense for him to think the Tower is playing a trick. I liked the Niall character.
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Aug 2, 2020 23:40
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I liked how natural his blinders were, and how his abritrary skepticism still made sense in the setting. "Some say the Last Battle will involve the Dark One breaking free and the resurrected Dragon coming to fight him. What nonsense, the Creator would never allow that! It is just going to be a huge force of Trollocs lead by the witches, who are pretending to be against the Dark One to keep us off guard!
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Aug 2, 2020 23:57
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Ghislaineof YOSPOS posted:To me it's a strength of the series that characters act within the confines of the institutions they're in, notable exception being obvious. My favorite example right now is Carridin. He has realistic motivations, acts in a way that seems rational to achieve his goals, and winds up being forced to make decisions that seem irrational but are really his only choices given the available options. Elaida isn't going to reach out to rand and try to help him, not because it's irrational, but because it's not what the white tower and especially her red ajah would do as an organization. Many characters talk about duty and expectations being a burden that prevents them from doing what they think is right (or in some cases easy.) I think this is an underanalyzed aspect of the series that helps to set it above most other fantasy series and fiction in general. it’s this. honestly, if you expect anything other than this in anything Jordan was writing, you should probably read a different series.
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Aug 3, 2020 06:06
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Yeah uh Jaichim Carridin, holy poo poo is it awful to be an evil henchman in this universe. You ALMOST sympathize with him.
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Aug 3, 2020 08:34
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Got enough brandy.
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Aug 3, 2020 12:26
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I don’t know why anyone would be a dark friend, they don’t really seem to get anything out of it.
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Aug 3, 2020 12:50
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Invalid Validation posted:I don’t know why anyone would be a dark friend, they don’t really seem to get anything out of it. People are stupid and desperate for any road to wealth and power. Most of them don't really know what they're signing up for until it's far too late to back out. A lot of people did it not even really believing that the Dark One existed and just saw it as another way to climb the social ladder. There's any number of real world parallels where people actively support organizations, groups, or ideologies that actively work against them and objectively make their lives and the world around them worse.
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Aug 3, 2020 12:59
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UltraRed posted:it’s this. the issue, mainly, is that he tends to err on the side of humans being super myopic and rigid more often then he does flexible and able to learn new things. most people are able to adopt a growth mindset in the real world. it's pessimism being peddled as reality and it's hard to buy. for example, there is no way that the Aiel would stay so rigid on their beliefs after spending so much time in the "wetlands" and around new belief systems. after the hundredth "thats not honorable!!" it gets pretty old.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:25
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Famethrowa posted:the issue, mainly, is that he tends to err on the side of humans being super myopic and rigid more often then he does flexible and able to learn new things. most people are able to adopt a growth mindset in the real world. it's pessimism being peddled as reality and it's hard to buy. Seems pretty realistic actually. People tend to be a lot more rigid and stubborn especially when they have a superiority complex.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:52
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Seems pretty realistic actually. People tend to be a lot more rigid and stubborn especially when they have a superiority complex. That, and the Shaido actively accepted and changed a lot of things: forcing wetlanders to be gai'shain, abusing the interpretations of taking the fifth, and a willingness to overlook Sevanna just completely breaking all the rules as a weird Clan Chief, Roofmistress, and Wise One hybrid. They also had Aiel join them from Rand's forces and vice-versa, depending on what they as individuals could stomach
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Aug 3, 2020 17:58
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Also, the Aiel change a lot over the course of the books. A ton of them abandon their spears and run off, either joining the Shaido, or trying to become Tinkers, or even just settling down in non-Aiel lands and trying to live as wetlanders (Rand runs into some Aiel manservants in Far Madding and is quietly freaked out). The Shaido grow "corrupted" by the wetlands, abandoning the Waste and creating a small slave-state before getting smashed by Perrin and the Seanchan. Even the Aiel that stick with Rand find their attitudes changing a lot; look out how they view Aes Sedai in the Dragon Reborn vs. how they view Aes Sedai by the last battle.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:03
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DarkHorse posted:and a willingness to overlook Sevanna just completely breaking all the rules as a weird Clan Chief, Roofmistress, and Wise One hybrid this sounds familiar
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Aug 3, 2020 18:20
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Seems pretty realistic actually. People tend to be a lot more rigid and stubborn especially when they have a superiority complex. DarkHorse posted:That, and the Shaido actively accepted and changed a lot of things: forcing wetlanders to be gai'shain, abusing the interpretations of taking the fifth, and a willingness to overlook Sevanna just completely breaking all the rules as a weird Clan Chief, Roofmistress, and Wise One hybrid. They also had Aiel join them from Rand's forces and vice-versa, depending on what they as individuals could stomach Old Kentucky Shark posted:Also, the Aiel change a lot over the course of the books. but see, all of these changes are viewed as a corruption or outright a bad thing. very few characters, outside of the main cast, have a positive interaction with a different "normal" that is integrated into how they view the world. where are the aiel characters who aren't evil or "cowardly" befriending a random cairhenian and learning from one another through cultural exchange? Jordan could have built some real emotional resonance in this way and just doesn't. don't get me wrong, I overall liked how Jordan presented the "iron law of institutions" when it came to the White Tower and Whitecloaks since it felt very real, but the way he treated individual human characters as being mostly flawed and rigid, gets pretty wearing.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:41
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I don't know, I think as much as possible, except for the corruption of the Shaido, mostly anything any Aiel decide for themselves is accepted, even if POV characters go "uh that's weird and unusual and I'm not used to that"
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Aug 3, 2020 19:38
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