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Johnny Joestar posted:it still amazes me how similar to lord of the rings the first book is, because it solidly dashes away from that the moment you get into book 2 I remember reading that it was intentionally like that, because that was the only way to get those type of fantasy novels published at the time. I don't know how true that is but it shows.
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Aug 8, 2020 00:13
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Somethings gotta explain Terry Brooks
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Aug 8, 2020 00:22
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Eighties ZomCom posted:I remember reading that it was intentionally like that, because that was the only way to get those type of fantasy novels published at the time. I don't know how true that is but it shows. Also there's a ridiculous amount of exposition in the first book. By sticking to a familiar story structure it's a bit easier to digest all the names and histories and such that are getting thrown out.
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Aug 8, 2020 00:41
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i think robert jordan confirmed it in an interview at some point
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Aug 8, 2020 00:42
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Yes, but in EOTW Morgase was on the verge of a civil uprising in the capital itself. It's fair to say she probably didn't want to risk sending her troops away. This would explain why the Whitecloaks were in Andor as well, intending to influence the outcome of a civil war towards their own ends.
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Aug 8, 2020 01:52
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The last bit of EoTW where they actually visit the eye of the world is a trip. Father earth and crazy rear end forsaken. They needed more spirit people like that.
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Aug 8, 2020 02:09
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Invalid Validation posted:The last bit of EoTW where they actually visit the eye of the world is a trip. Father earth and crazy rear end forsaken. They needed more spirit people like that. The memories of the green man are so good. Just that little tidbit.
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Aug 8, 2020 02:14
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rndmnmbr posted:The thing that got me about the Whitecloaks was, here is this heavy cavalry that is basically the standing military force of Amadicia, let's let them conduct military operations in Andor! Instead of Gareth Bryne meeting them at the border with his own heavy cavalry plus pike formations and inform them they can disarm themselves, ride back the way they came, or violate Andor's borders in an act of warfare and meet the Lion in battle. The Whitecloaks aren't the standing military of Amadicia, they're a supranational organization that has a puppet state in Amadicia that's nominally independent. They have influence all over Randland (including Andor) and aren't just actors of a state like you are implying. EOTW paints Andor as internally unstable, attacking the Children would be fanning the flames and risking civil unrest. There's a whole faction of "whites" opposing the Queen and Aes Sedai influence in Caemlyn while this is going on. Meanwhile Logain is moving through the city and Morgase is trying to hide that the daughter heir can channel and is being sent to the white tower to become an Aes Sedai. It's not really the time to challenge Pedron Niall directly. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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Aug 9, 2020 18:51
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I haven't gotten to this part in the re-reads but didn't Elayne and Gawyn mention that the Whitecloaks basically harassed their entire party from Caemlyn to Tar Valon and Gareth Bryne had to command a military escort? I think that's pretty hosed up even on that scale.
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Aug 9, 2020 20:44
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Prairie Bus posted:It fits well with what Jordan kept saying - before Rand, all the states were holding on by their fingernails, able to claim real jurisdiction over their capitals and little else. Just a lot of dead brush for the fires of the Dragon to burn away ahead of the last battle. That's what makes the way Elayne handled Perrin really obnoxious. Had she simply acknowledged that the Two Rivers had been forced to defend themselves, had Perrin swear fealty, and then given him a noble title with the Two Rivers as his fief, it would have been a monumental political accomplishment. At one stroke that required no effort from her, she would have re-established direct control over a corner of her realm that had long been effectively lost to the Crown - which would also have given her the leverage to tighten jurisdiction over large swaths of land in the region as a whole. An accomplishment of this sort would have cemented her as Queen and killed off much of the support for her rivals. Instead, she initially refers to his actions as treason, and comes up with that absurd "Steward of the Dragon" nonsense. Also, on the "things I missed before the audiobook", I never realized that Aludra's invention of the "dragons" were not some pure coincidence, or a line of research the Illuminators had been ignoring. It was inspired by Ran using a launching tube against Trollocs when he burned down the Illuminator's Guild in Cairhien.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:04
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Gnoman posted:That's what makes the way Elayne handled Perrin really obnoxious. Had she simply acknowledged that the Two Rivers had been forced to defend themselves, had Perrin swear fealty, and then given him a noble title with the Two Rivers as his fief, it would have been a monumental political accomplishment. I doubt any of the current inhabitants of the Two Rivers (plus any of the surrounding territories and nations that have sworn for Lord Goldeneyes in the meantime) would have settled for that, though. I think the eventual outcome would always have been a renewed Manetheren in all but name.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:10
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If Perrin had told them to do it, they probably would have. The one big friction between him and the people who swore for him was his reluctance to be a lord in the first place. Having him accept the title while swearing to the Queen of Andor almost certainly would have been accepted.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:12
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Gnoman posted:If Perrin had told them to do it, they probably would have. The one big friction between him and the people who swore for him was his reluctance to be a lord in the first place. Having him accept the title while swearing to the Queen of Andor almost certainly would have been accepted. And then Zarine ni Bashere t'Aybara would have pulled him aside, reminded him that he's got a bunch of entire other countries sworn to him and told him that would never work. That the people he helped save would never stand for him pledging fealty to a monarch of a nation that basically had given them up at the outset, Perrin telling them to do it or no.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:14
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Also Elayne went into the problems surrounding Faile's children being both the heirs to Saldea and the two rivers.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:17
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I think really, the intent of that whole section was supposed to be Elayne giving both sides a graceful exit and acknowledgement of the secession of Two Rivers towards whatever Perrin and Faile will have going on. Whether or not it was deftly executed by Brandon Sanderson is another matter for discussion.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:19
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silvergoose posted:Also Elayne went into the problems surrounding Faile's children being both the heirs to Saldea and the two rivers. You mean her vassal having a claim on an entire rival country? Meaning that Andor would have a chance of incorporating Saldea in a generation or two? Feudal monarchs love that poo poo, and a similar situation already existed with Elayne herself having a claim on Cairhien.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:22
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Gnoman posted:You mean her vassal having a claim on an entire rival country? Meaning that Andor would have a chance of incorporating Saldea in a generation or two? Feudal monarchs love that poo poo, and a similar situation already existed with Elayne herself having a claim on Cairhien. Yeah, easy enough to say "We'll have a couple children get married so now Trakand can have a claim on Saldea too". It was handled so piss poorly, even taking into account she was young. Just ask Thom for some advice, I'm sure he could have come up with some agreement that wouldn't have been dumb as poo poo. As for Faile and Perrin's vassals, the highest ranking was basically a deposed queen from a country where the queen was barely in charge of the capital, I'm sure it could have been smoothed over with some other arrangement or treaty.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:41
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seaborgium posted:Yeah, easy enough to say "We'll have a couple children get married so now Trakand can have a claim on Saldea too". It was handled so piss poorly, even taking into account she was young. Just ask Thom for some advice, I'm sure he could have come up with some agreement that wouldn't have been dumb as poo poo. I don't understand, Elayne suggest their children marry, and Perrin shoots that down with "we don't do arranged marriages in the Two Rivers. Ever." Faile offers "heavily encouraging" some of their children to marry each other, and Elayne accepts that. Also, historically, the Two Rivers would have become part of Saldaea in case the two inheritance lines intersect, instead of Andor assimilating Saldaea. Just look at France, the Normandy, and England. So I think Elayne actually handled that part right.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:51
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Torrannor posted:I don't understand, Elayne suggest their children marry, and Perrin shoots that down with "we don't do arranged marriages in the Two Rivers. Ever." Faile offers "heavily encouraging" some of their children to marry each other, and Elayne accepts that. Completely blanked on Perrin saying no to that, but the rest could have been handled way better than just saying "it's treason, we should kill him" to a dude who basically saved a chunk of Elayne's realm that had been ignored for generations.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:58
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See, yeah, the actual outcome in the books is the non-stupid one. Sure, in a vacuum, a monarch would love to add more to her nation. But that's not in the cards for people sworn to Lord Goldeneyes. The original ones didn't really much feel like they owe anything to Andor to begin with, and then Perrin added a ton of nobles and exiles from all across the west of the continent, including whoever all he liberated at Malden, plus basically two entire whole countries, one of which is a military might all on its own, and the other is the Whitecloaks--and even if Galad is related to the throne of Andor he's unlikely to convince his entire army to transfer fealties.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:00
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Gnoman posted:You mean her vassal having a claim on an entire rival country? Meaning that Andor would have a chance of incorporating Saldea in a generation or two? Feudal monarchs love that poo poo, and a similar situation already existed with Elayne herself having a claim on Cairhien. If you're not being sarcastic here, no monarchs don't love those sorts of situations. The Kings of France were certainly not thrilled when one of their Dukes became King of England. It's a pretty bad situation to have a vassal with outside titles that they can use to oppose you. Perrin being King of Saldea doesn't give Elayne authority over Saldea, that's not how it works. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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Aug 9, 2020 22:23
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Yeah, honestly Elayne played that correctly tbh. Like I know its fun to chaos dunk on her but we have the benefit of being in the heads of everyone at that meeting, she doesn't. She came in with a pretty clear negotiating tactic to ensure that they didn't see her as a junior member at the table there, with how fragile Andor is at that point if Perrin had really wanted to he probably could have ensured it broke forever. So she plays hardball and ultimately everyone walks away from the meeting with roughly what they wanted.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:24
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Basileus777 posted:If you're not being sarcastic here, no monarchs don't love those sorts of situations. The Kings of France were certainly not thrilled when one of their Dukes became King of England. It's a pretty bad situation to have a vassal with outside titles that they can use to oppose you. Perrin being King of Saldea doesn't give Elayne authority over Saldea, that's not how it works. I wasn't being sarcastic, but I have been drinking.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:28
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Even then you’d think that if Rand completely trusted Perrin as he did she wouldn’t immediately default to treason.
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Aug 9, 2020 23:49
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Invalid Validation posted:Even then you’d think that if Rand completely trusted Perrin as he did she wouldn’t immediately default to treason. Armed insurrection and a seccession movement? That's treason any way you look at it. Elayne needed a graceful way to let Perrin's people out without giving the rest of her people ideas. That's how you stop being a reigning monarch.
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Aug 10, 2020 00:26
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Armed insurrection and a seccession movement? That's treason any way you look at it. Except it wasn't either of those things, they were abandoned by the crown and had to defend themselves. Even Morgase admitted they hadn't seen anyone from the Andorian government in literal generations, no taxes, no services, no nothing. They didn't even think they could ask for help from the Queen because as far as they knew she didn't rule them or anyone near them. As far as Caemlyn was concerned they didn't exist. The graceful way would have been for them all to say publicly "Thanks Perrin for protecting this corner of my lands from those nasty Trollocs and your help in the last battle. As a reward for loyal service I make you the lord of the Two Rivers and make you one of the houses of Andor". The people think it's because their queen is good, and you can do whatever you need to in private to make it look like he barely skated treason charges, maybe he has to have his first kid raised in Caemlyn as a ward, or whatever would make the other houses look at it like he's on a short leash and could be killed at any time. We do see Elayne's point of view, and it's mostly "Fucker tried to steal my crown" not "Thank gently caress I didn't get invaded by Trollocs from the rear end end of nowhere, how do I make this look good for me while keeping the other Houses in line so they don't try this poo poo too?"
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Aug 10, 2020 00:51
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seaborgium posted:Except it wasn't either of those things, they were abandoned by the crown and had to defend themselves. Even Morgase admitted they hadn't seen anyone from the Andorian government in literal generations, no taxes, no services, no nothing. They didn't even think they could ask for help from the Queen because as far as they knew she didn't rule them or anyone near them. As far as Caemlyn was concerned they didn't exist. The graceful way would have been for them all to say publicly "Thanks Perrin for protecting this corner of my lands from those nasty Trollocs and your help in the last battle. As a reward for loyal service I make you the lord of the Two Rivers and make you one of the houses of Andor". How does any of that sound good for Perrin at all? And 80% of his people would probably actually go off and fight the crown of Andor if they tried to let any of that poo poo fly, no matter what he says. Cenn Buie might literally lead the charge, and that's loving Cenn Buie. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 00:54
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I agree with sea. Publicly whatever, but privately it should have been much more cordial considering if nothing else his relationship to Rand. Everyone she’s ever met from the Edmonds Field has only tried to help and protect her.
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Aug 10, 2020 01:27
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also it's extremely important for elayne that nobody in andor starts thinking that leadership qualities, rather than bloodline, should determine rulers
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Aug 10, 2020 01:37
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awesmoe posted:also it's extremely important for elayne that nobody in andor starts thinking that leadership qualities, rather than bloodline, should determine rulers Great post.
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Aug 10, 2020 01:42
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i got to the point in the reread where they fight the Shaido for Cairhien and i'd basically forgotten about the whole sequence and it totally rules especially the (relatively) fast cuts between Rand and Mat as both plunge into the thick of it, then the hard cut to the battle being over with each in a total daze, barely aware of the time that's passed or who they killed. and Jordan loving has Mat kill Couladin offscreen like an absolute loving chump lmao the entire end of this book would be the most incredible tv, especially because after the huge setpiece for Cairhien you think that the climax is over, then things get buckwild between moiraine/lanfear and the sudden teleport assault on Caemlyn eke out fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 02:00
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It’s a prefect end to the shithead and makes Mat cool as hell going forward.
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Aug 10, 2020 02:02
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Asmodean really knocked it out of the park by putting those tats on Couladin. The sheer amount of chaos that resulted from that relatively minor act might be the most effective action any of the Forsaken had taken up until that point.
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Aug 10, 2020 02:57
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CainsDescendant posted:Asmodean really knocked it out of the park by putting those tats on Couladin. The sheer amount of chaos that resulted from that relatively minor act might be the most effective action any of the Forsaken had taken up until that point. Probably well past that, too. I think Rand muses to himself just how many events are solely due to that.
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Aug 10, 2020 03:06
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I don't think it's even close, really. Asmodean with "One weird trick!" caused the revelation of the Aiel's history which lead to mass disillusionment and defection among the clans, mass invasion and devastation of one land->A second huge 3 way fight and slaughter at Dumai's Wells, and then indirectly caused/set up Sammeal to use the leftovers to basically upend every western nation that hadn't been taken over by the Seanchan. On his own though, Sammael just sat around in Illian and didn't do anything but build an army that never got in a fight. Graendal turbo dunked one country, but never really went past that. Rahvin and Be'lal, didn't do poo poo before getting balefired to death. Ditto Aginor and Balthamel. Demandred was sir not appearing in this series until the last book. Moghedein did negative good because she just got captured and then used to save Rand in his fight with Rahvin + teaching Egweene, Elayne and Nynaeve poo poo from the age of legends. I think the only one that can sorta come close, maybe**, is Mesanna splitting the white tower, if you consider that all down to her and not something the Blacks pulled off on their own. **Big asterisk here is also how much of the Seanchan invasion and influence is down to Semirhage and how much is what they were going to do on their own. If offscreen events count though, Semirhage just straight up decapitates an empire that rules a whole continent and comes within a hair's breadth of breaking Rand on her own, so, points there. Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 03:45
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Gwaihir posted:Graendal turbo dunked one country, but never really went past that. Rahvin and Be'lal, didn't do poo poo before getting balefired to death. Rahvin almost ruined an entire country, and that's only an "almost" because Morgase figures it out and runs, which helped clue Rand into his presense. Graendal came very close to winning the Last Battle single-handedly.
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Aug 10, 2020 04:20
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Gwaihir posted:I don't think it's even close, really. Asmodean with "One weird trick!" caused the revelation of the Aiel's history which lead to mass disillusionment and defection among the clans, mass invasion and devastation of one land->A second huge 3 way fight and slaughter at Dumai's Wells, and then indirectly caused/set up Sammeal to use the leftovers to basically upend every western nation that hadn't been taken over by the Seanchan. On his own though, Sammael just sat around in Illian and didn't do anything but build an army that never got in a fight. Sammael and Rahvin were letting their subordinates fight a war over control of Cairhien until Rand rolled right through with the Aiel train, IIRC. quote:Graendal turbo dunked one country, but never really went past that. Rahvin and Be'lal, didn't do poo poo before getting balefired to death. Ditto Aginor and Balthamel. Demandred was sir not appearing in this series until the last book. Moghedein did negative good because she just got captured and then used to save Rand in his fight with Rahvin + teaching Egweene, Elayne and Nynaeve poo poo from the age of legends. She was in her disguise by the time Siuan was deposed and had certainly assumed control of the Black Ajah by then, so ... po tay to po tah to? I don't think the Blacks would have been as audacious if the Forsaken weren't already loose, but then I think the political pressures upon the White Tower at that point didn't need much pushing from the Blacks, if at all, by then. quote:**Big asterisk here is also how much of the Seanchan invasion and influence is down to Semirhage and how much is what they were going to do on their own. If offscreen events count though, Semirhage just straight up decapitates an empire that rules a whole continent and comes within a hair's breadth of breaking Rand on her own, so, points there. The Corenne took tons of logistics and planning so probably was always going to be on. Semirhage's plan was to ride that ship right over and seize whatever opportunities came up as Tuon's Truthspeaker. Which worked pretty well for her when the Domination Band fell into her hands.
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Aug 10, 2020 04:32
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eke out posted:the entire end of this book would be the most incredible tv, especially because after the huge setpiece for Cairhien you think that the climax is over, then things get buckwild between moiraine/lanfear and the sudden teleport assault on Caemlyn Agreed. I imagine Lanfear/Moiraine would be the last 5 minutes of the penultimate episode, with Rand saying he's going to go kill Rahvin in the last seconds. If the show gets that far, it will absolutely rule.
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Aug 10, 2020 05:19
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Wait now that I think about it, Asmodean never got resurrected did he?
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Aug 10, 2020 06:13
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The one doing the resurrecting was the Dark One. Asmodean was a traitor to the Dark One (training Rand suited DO's purposes, but Asmodean was straight up siding with Rand against the DO, albeit out of pragmatism). Even if he wasn't balefired, the DO had no reason to resurrect him.
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Aug 10, 2020 06:29
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