|
Look Zeon folks have one solution to their problems, drop a colony. Much like trickle down economics they spent decades trying it without it doing anything they said it would!
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 17:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 23:54 |
|
|
and yet if they had simply dropped more colonies they could have won the one year war. too bad they bought into their own facist warrior mentality ethos too much
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 17:22
|
|
|
They apparently tried a second colony drop, and it didn't even get out of it's Lagrange point before the Federation stopped it because the first had cost them so much and the Federation were expecting it after the first and weren't caught on the backfoot by Zeon trying something completely unexpected.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 17:29
|
|
|
I mean, the Colony Drop in ZZ does hit Earth... with the almost tacit approval of a bunch of the Federation higher-ups who want to use it to their own ends in managing their populace. Haman Karn did an hilariously good job convincing Fed leadership she was the nice, reasonable opposition who could be invited to all their fancy parties.
gourdcaptain fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Sep 25, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 17:39
|
|
|
The Notorious ZSB posted:Look Zeon folks have one solution to their problems, drop a colony. Much like trickle down economics they spent decades trying it without it doing anything they said it would! Tumble down e-colony.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 17:57
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:Tumble down e-colony. Gundam Thread 6 title right here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:Gundam Thread 6 title right here. Yeah.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 18:44
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:and yet if they had simply dropped more colonies they could have won the one year war. Hapless Zeon recruit turning the colony drop dial with a quivering hand: 'Bit more, bit more, bit more, poo poo, too much' 
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 18:49
|
|
|
gourdcaptain posted:I mean, the Colony Drop in ZZ does hit Earth... with the almost tacit approval of a bunch of the Federation higher-ups who want to use it to their own ends in managing their populace. Haman Karn did an hilariously good job convincing Fed leadership she was the nice, reasonable opposition who could be invited to all their fancy parties. The Federation in ZZ was a militarily spent entity which couldn't have stopped Haman from dropping that colony even if they wanted to. The famous "heh heh, population control" is some callous, heartless fatcats looking at a situation they can't do anything about and going "hey, silver linings". If not for Glemy's uprising destroying Neo Zeon from within, Haman had won the entire ball game in ZZ - the remains of the Federation were too cowed/weakened to openly oppose her, most of the remains of Karaba(including Hayato) died trying to save people in Dublin, and the AEUG remnants at that point consisted of pretty much just the Argama.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
Kanos posted:Unicorn spends a fair amount of time trying to emphasize that the decline of the Federation and the aftermath of all the wars has led to worsening conditions on the colonies and a lot of colonists beginning to venerate/support the idea of Zeon as a proxy for a better future rather than Zeon-as-blood-soaked-genocide-machine. The US rearmed the Germans and reindustrialized the Japanese in the 50s. 20 years is a long time, especially politically / ideologically. Material conditions declining in the colonies is a perfect reason for a generation of adults who weren’t born yet when oyw happened to venerate a false idea of what that war was about.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:Jerid, the Jar Jar Binks of Gundam. Jar Jar doesn't deserve that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 21:13
|
|
|
DamnGlitch posted:The US rearmed the Germans and reindustrialized the Japanese in the 50s. 20 years is a long time, especially politically / ideologically. There's not even really enough time for a generation of adults born after the OYW to exist in Unicorn. The end of the OYW is at the beginning of 0079 and Unicorn takes place in 0096. That, and the people shown most fervently devoted to Zeon-as-a-religious ideal are middle aged or part of the family of a middle aged person.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 21:33
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Jar Jar doesn't deserve that. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
DamnGlitch posted:The US rearmed the Germans and reindustrialized the Japanese in the 50s. 20 years is a long time, especially politically / ideologically. By the time of Unicorn the Federation Zeon disparity is at a high mark superseded only by the Fed/Zeon power divide right before Operation Star One. Its been a few years since the Axis Shock, they've rebuilt the fleet since Glemy ripped up Neo Zeon and the Sleeves are so strapped for resources that they have to steal the Sinanju and rely on OYW remnants. Most of the Sleeves' personal forces were wiped out at Industrial 7 and that was going up against only the Nahel Argama, the Garancieres and the Unicorn/Banshee combo. Even with a big loss like the General Revill getting crippled, there really was no way that the Sleeves could have stood up militarily to the Federation for a protracted conflict. Hence the blackmail and economics for idiots plan. And that was abiut to be solved by a giant laser beam.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:By the time of Unicorn the Federation Zeon disparity is at a high mark superseded only by the Fed/Zeon power divide right before Operation Star One. Its been a few years since the Axis Shock, they've rebuilt the fleet since Glemy ripped up Neo Zeon and the Sleeves are so strapped for resources that they have to steal the Sinanju and rely on OYW remnants. Most of the Sleeves' personal forces were wiped out at Industrial 7 and that was going up against only the Nahel Argama, the Garancieres and the Unicorn/Banshee combo. TBH the fact that they pulled a second Neo Zeong out of their rear end for Narrative is another point against that particular work. Like they could maintain two giant Newtype-dependent mobile armors on a budget of pocket lint and nationalism?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 00:27
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:TBH the fact that they pulled a second Neo Zeong out of their rear end for Narrative is another point against that particular work. Like they could maintain two giant Newtype-dependent mobile armors on a budget of pocket lint and nationalism? I assume whenever this comes up you just blame Anaheim.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 00:35
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:TBH the fact that they pulled a second Neo Zeong out of their rear end for Narrative is another point against that particular work. Like they could maintain two giant Newtype-dependent mobile armors on a budget of pocket lint and nationalism? It's hard to pick up since Narrative is terrible, but the Sleeves in Narrative aren't the Sleeves. They're deniable assets created and funded by Zeon's foreign minister, Monaghan Bakharov. (Then Zoltan proceeded to go wildly off script.) Minerva's faction basically exists as a counterweight, so Darcia has something to keep his son's off-the-book scheming in check without officially even acknowledging any of it exists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
If I ever have to wear a tie to work again I’m all set: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 00:57
|
|
|
Does anyone else read Kazami in re:rise as a transman? He's got a name that's usually assigned to girls, he's one of the very few people in GBN who has a human avatar with a build different than their real-life body type, he's obsessed with a hyper-masculine ideal that then gets an associated anguished declaration about becoming his true self, and I feel like we learn the least about his past of any of the team. His big source of personal tragedy seems oddly small compared to Hirito's and Par's. Also his girlfriend will never, ever see his original body. I have to wonder if there's something there that they weren't willing to go through with in a half-hour toy commercial.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 01:28
|
|
|
wdarkk posted:Does anyone else read Kazami in re:rise as a transman? I thought he was compensating because his dad disappeared as a child and needed to "man up"
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 01:32
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:It's hard to pick up since Narrative is terrible, but the Sleeves in Narrative aren't the Sleeves. They're deniable assets created and funded by Zeon's foreign minister, Monaghan Bakharov. (Then Zoltan proceeded to go wildly off script.) Where does all of the extra setting detail here come from? If there's some political intrigue story I'm missing out on I'm going to be disappointed. I'm gonna need to learn Japanese to find out aren't I?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 01:32
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:Where does all of the extra setting detail here come from? If there's some political intrigue story I'm missing out on I'm going to be disappointed. It's actually shown in the movie, although it's hard to pick up on, because, well, Narrative. We see the woman in charge of the operation talk to Bakharov on the phone before Zoltan shoots her, where he says to blame everything on the Sleeves and scrub the operation. It's another of the "on paper, Narrative has some clever ideas, in practice, none of them are executed well." things that make Narrative so irritating.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 01:44
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:It's actually shown in the movie, although it's hard to pick up on, because, well, Narrative. We see the woman in charge of the operation talk to Bakharov on the phone before Zoltan shoots her, where he says to blame everything on the Sleeves and scrub the operation. I remember that, I just didn't think that Narrative's sleeves were created whole cloth for that operation--I figured they were some remnant Sleeves being poked in that direction by the guy on the TV through the woman Zoltan shoots. Which begs the question of if this Bakharov guy was also funding Frontal's Sleeves?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 01:50
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:I remember that, I just didn't think that Narrative's sleeves were created whole cloth for that operation--I figured they were some remnant Sleeves being poked in that direction by the guy on the TV through the woman Zoltan shoots. Which begs the question of if this Bakharov guy was also funding Frontal's Sleeves? Yep. He didn't create them, but in the novel, he went so far as to fund the experiments that gave Full Frontal Char's memories. (In the OVAs, he doesn't show up, so that's a bit vaguer.) Where his dad is one of the main reasons the Republic abandoned its ties to the Zabis, he's more than a bit of a revanchist. He's saner than most Neo Zeon leaders, only wanting small scale conflict and dirty politics rather than full wars and dropping colonies, but he's still a pretty big rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 01:57
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Yep. He didn't create them, but in the novel, he went so far as to fund the experiments that gave Full Frontal Char's memories. (In the OVAs, he doesn't show up, so that's a bit vaguer.) That would explain why I always get big question marks over my head with Bakharov the Younger comes up. I knew vaguely of Darcia from other stuff I've sponged up along the way, but this guy kinda comes out of left field for Narrative. I got as much that he's the Zeon (I had to strike PM because I didn't actually remember what his title was or if it was even in Narrative.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 02:03
|
|
|
Oh hey, Build Divers Re:Rise soundtrack is on Spotify.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 02:14
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:That would explain why I always get big question marks over my head with Bakharov the Younger comes up. I knew vaguely of Darcia from other stuff I've sponged up along the way, but this guy kinda comes out of left field for Narrative. I got as much that he's the Zeon It's mentioned at some point, I think. He's the Foreign Minister in the anime and the Defense Minister in the novels, which means everything is just more confusing than ever. Basically, it's taking an already complicated political plot where most people don't even know all the factions in play, then reshuffling the order of scenes and jamming it together with an also messy personal plot to make everything almost incomprehensible without a cheat sheet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
The Re:Rise soundtrack is out on Spotify now. Someone also uploaded it to Youtube. Can't wait to listen to the Seltsam's theme again  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr7cYZrrUn_6HMCPDMzEfXPtlD2nJRVvV
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2020 03:56
|
|
|
I know the real answer is "because 0083 came out years later and also is bad" but have we ever gotten an in-universe explanation as to why the Titans got a mass produced line of high-spec GM variants and then almost immediately replaced them all with the undergunned shitbox that is the Hizack?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:I know the real answer is "because 0083 came out years later and also is bad" but have we ever gotten an in-universe explanation as to why the Titans got a mass produced line of high-spec GM variants and then almost immediately replaced them all with the undergunned shitbox that is the Hizack? The Hizack is a cheap and flexible mass production unit that you can build a lot of for peanuts, and it let them bulk out their forces quickly while still allocating resources to fancy new tech like movable frame suits and transformers. It's not really undergunned, since it can use a beam rifle just fine. The fancy GMs from 0083 are badly out of date by the Zeta era. (The meta reason is that they wanted to give the antagonist faction monoeye suits)
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 00:42
|
|
|
Honestly when it comes to grunt suits "is capable of firing a beam rifle" and "is capable of moving relatively smoothly and quickly" is all you need when it comes to mass production. More weaponry is of limited effectiveness unless you're dealing with completely insane poo poo like funnels or unless the enemy is deploying something with an I-Field and both of those are so relatively rare it isn't worth considering. (Not to mention they MP'd the F91 anyway and VSRBs are basically a fantastic catch-all weapon.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:I know the real answer is "because 0083 came out years later and also is bad" but have we ever gotten an in-universe explanation as to why the Titans got a mass produced line of high-spec GM variants and then almost immediately replaced them all with the undergunned shitbox that is the Hizack? The GM Quel was just too expensive to be the primary unit of the Titans as they expanded past their original role, especially cause while it was a good unit it didn't really offer a good enough boost for it's price to be really worth it
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
I mean part of the issue is a lot of the (admittedly after the fact) writing about the Hizack kinda puts it performance-wise as being just barely an upgrade from late OYW stuff. You got the whole thing where apparently its so under-powered that having a beam saber precludes being armed with an e-pac fed rifle. Its peers in the GM II and Galbaldy Beta had no problems having both, whatever their other flaws were. edit: take the "Historiography of Gundam" route and just say Zeta was to the Hizack what "Death Traps" was to the Sherman Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Sep 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 01:06
|
|
|
Plus the Quel isn't really that good of a machine. Better than the GM II but that isn't saying much considering most IIs are just regular GMs that got half assed refurbishing. It's the GM Custom as a mass produced suit made off of machine specs four years out of date.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 01:09
|
|
|
It's also important to contextualize that when the Hizack was in mass production there weren't any real forces opposing the Titans to speak of. You don't need fancy mobile suits to stomp on Zeon remnants with leftover OYW junk or put the boots to malcontent civilians. They phased the thing out real fast when AEUG became a threat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 01:12
|
|
|
I mean the thing is beyond the ease of use I'm not even sure about how much better the Hizack is than said leftover OYW junk. That said them not having any real enemies meaning they were going to cheap the gently caress out on equipment is the realistic and disappointingly mundane answer.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 01:24
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:I mean the thing is beyond the ease of use I'm not even sure about how much better the Hizack is than said leftover OYW junk. The Hizack was better than the Gelgoog and Gundam in pretty much every way except the Gundam's armor which was honestly an increasingly meaningless difference with beam weapons being around. It was by no means a bad suit, just one that was very workman in a setting where superweapons piloted by aces was increasingly becoming the significant part of the battle since the overall combat numbers were significantly less than the OYW.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 02:11
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:I mean the thing is beyond the ease of use I'm not even sure about how much better the Hizack is than said leftover OYW junk. It's still pretty sad. Especially since the Titans weren't nearly as unopposed as some other factions who did a similar "Eh, get something cheap" approach, and those . Like, the next time the EFSF settled on a Mobile Suit that fell behind the curve, it was the reliable Jegan. The Leo's terrible, but it's heavily modular, and nobody else had Mobile Suits anyway. And the Graze is actually pretty good. The Hi-Zack... sucks. A lot. You'd be better off in a OYW vintage GM, despite seven years of Mobile Suit development. Sure, the Hi-Zack was a little faster, somewhat more mobile, and it had an ALEX style panoramic cockpit, but you had to choose between a beam saber or a beam rifle (while the GM could have both), the armor was lighter, and you didn't have vulcans as a last ditch backup weapon. Even the areas (other than cockpit design) where it had an edge over GMs were outperformed by high end suits from most of a decade earlier like the GM Command, the Sniper Custom, the Gelgoog, and the ever-reliable Sniper II. It's a deeply weird suit in the context of later shows, and even without them, it's kind of narratively weak. It's harder for the Titans to feel like bad guy Feddies when they're the ones in Zakus.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 02:20
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:It's still pretty sad. Especially since the Titans weren't nearly as unopposed as some other factions who did a similar "Eh, get something cheap" approach, and those . I think you might be underselling the spatial awareness advantage of the panoramic cockpit here. The GM has blind spots, while the Hizack really doesn't. In theory, anything with a panoramic cockpit should clown on anything with a three-monitor front and side cockpit in a space battle. It's somewhat less of an issue on the ground where there aren't as many ways to get into that blind spot in the first place, but the advantage is still there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 02:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 23:54 |
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:It's still pretty sad. Especially since the Titans weren't nearly as unopposed as some other factions who did a similar "Eh, get something cheap" approach, and those . I feel like comparing the Hizack to custom GM models is a bit unreasonable. The Hizack Custom for example is significantly better than the classic Hizack to the point it was still seeing use during the First Neo-Zeon War. (And during Unicorn but that was more due to limited units overall.) You'd be much better off in a Hizack Custom than a GM Custom.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 02:39
|
|