|
Vader also chokes someone out in the same room in Episode 4 and the rest of the group definitely looks like this isn’t the third time it’s happened.
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 20:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 13:48 |
|
|
This is the same movie where everybody scoff at Vader following an old dead religion, when they all grew up in the generation immediately following when the psychic warrior monks tried to overthrown the government. It's pretty obvious the Jedi went throught a sort of memetic mutation with each successive movie. They started quite obviously like samurai in Meiji Japan, anachronistic throwbacks with some abilities that were maybe better than normal, that ambigously in this casemight have been mildly supernatural, like the . Their belief system was gone, the modern world had wiped it away, and anyone holding on to it is looked on as a little crazy. The Jedi basically are following bushido. This evolved into something closer to omnipotence by movie 9, where a dark force user literally fills in for Satan in people's imaginations. "Not Palpatine, the king of the sith! He must have come back throught dark magic!" Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Sep 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Because he's actually using mind control to convince the Stormtrooper to let them go? He's not fast talking them out of anything. Is that what you think "fast talking" looks like? He tells them to let them go, and the traffic cop lets them go. That's not fast talking. Fast talking a traffic cop out of a speeding ticket would involve a bit more than what we see. I'd expect magic mind control to involve a spinning black and white spiral and maybe a swinging pocket watch and some harp arpeggios. Instead Obi-wan acts like a nice polite old white guy to the cop and the cop lets him go.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
moosecow333 posted:Vader also chokes someone out in the same room in Episode 4 and the rest of the group definitely looks like this isn’t the third time it’s happened. Right, that’s not in dispute. It’s simply that the imagery is of Vader as evil mesmerist or hypnotist. That’s why it’s good to know the context from which these characters emerged: “Animal magnetism, also known as mesmerism, was the name given by German doctor Franz Mesmer in the 18th century to what he believed to be an invisible natural force (Lebensmagnetismus) possessed by all living things, including humans, animals, and vegetables. He believed that the force could have physical effects, including healing, and he tried persistently but without success to achieve scientific recognition of his ideas. [...] Reported effects included various feelings: intense heat, trembling, trances, and seizures.” Wikipedia The ability to mesmerize people is of course well-known, and has become a part of everyday speech, but the term specifically originated in the now-disproven theory of a literal animal magnetism. It’s that theory that inspired characters like Dracula, with his power to entrance his victims. This ‘animal magnetism’ didn’t just appear from nowhere; it was an earnest attempt at explaining real physiological effects seemingly produced by nothing but sheer proximity to another person. Hypnosis still remains a thing, but we have much stronger theories of how it works, and we can use them to (re)interpret the imagery of hypnotism in the first Star Wars movie. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Sep 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s where it gets weird because, yeah, the chair scene is occurring fairly late in the final film and seemingly proving that telekinesis is real. And this is really bizarre for the narrative, because it’s literally the first time Han and the rest have actually seen something levitate - yet there’s no focus on their reactions whatsoever. They don’t even seem to notice. i mean they all believe in the force juke is a jedi the religion says jedi can do poo poo why would they be astonished?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 00:22
|
|
|
finding out C3P0 is a god would be astonishing to me
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 00:26
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:finding out C3P0 is a god would be astonishing to me GoldenrOD.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 00:29
|
|
|
Elfgames posted:i mean they all believe in the force juke is a jedi the religion says jedi can do poo poo why would they be astonished? if a christian sees a bunch of angels and witnesses the dead coming back to life do you expect them to be like, oh yeah whatever. i read about this. who cares
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
DeimosRising posted:if a christian sees a bunch of angels and witnesses the dead coming back to life do you expect them to be like, oh yeah whatever. i read about this. who cares if a bunch of angels and resurected people had a an office downtown yeah
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 01:58
|
|
|
Also everyone growing up in the immediate aftermath of Order 66 would know, concretely, that no matter what bullshit the Jedi said they could do you can just shoot them to death like regular people. Its how I've always seen that conference room argument framed, that the admirals are like "big whoop vader can levitate rocks and choke one guy, thats meaningless for an occupation force beyond looking cool" and Vader arguing that the full power of the force is something massively grander than him just giving this one dude sassing him a taste of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
How did Kamino go from a planet so obscure that Obiwan had to uncover it in a conspiracy plot to them having a representative in the Republic Senate? Did they say "hey we're making your army, can we get a seat?"
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 02:37
|
|
|
Detective No. 27 posted:How did Kamino go from a planet so obscure that Obiwan had to uncover it in a conspiracy plot to them having a representative in the Republic Senate? Did they say "hey we're making your army, can we get a seat?" Probably? Not all systems are in the republic is established in Episode 1. Palps probably got them a seat to he a guaranteed vote on whatever his latest law was since he's buying his entire army from them. Once he wins the war of course, he betrays them by opening soldier recruitment across the galaxy to give dozens of planets a connection to him and his military pork spending. A planet that didn't get the contract and thus grew to hate him? Alderaan.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 02:42
|
|
|
Detective No. 27 posted:How did Kamino go from a planet so obscure that Obiwan had to uncover it in a conspiracy plot to them having a representative in the Republic Senate? Did they say "hey we're making your army, can we get a seat?" I think there's an aside in the Clone Wars cartoon that says so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 02:57
|
|
|
Well, we've seen that successful corporations apparently just get Senate seats. Like the real world, but honest.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 03:20
|
|
|
Elfgames posted:if a bunch of angels and resurected people had a an office downtown yeah Again, we’re talking about the narrative before the Midichlorian twist in Episode 1. The fact that the Jedi are fairly well-known and keep their headquarters in the middle of a major city is revealed after the twist that there is nothing at all supernatural or miraculous about their powers. Before the twist, however, you could reasonably ask why atheist Han isn’t astonished by the magic chair - or why Obiwan doesn’t shut Han up with some truly spectacular magic trick. If you look at A New Hope in isolation, the best reason why Obiwan doesn’t do anything truly impressive is that he’s a charlatan. We only learn why Obiwan doesn’t like to show off his Literal Animal Magnetism - because he considers it vulgar and against his religion - partway through Episode 2.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 03:34
|
|
|
Detective No. 27 posted:How did Kamino go from a planet so obscure that Obiwan had to uncover it in a conspiracy plot to them having a representative in the Republic Senate? Did they say "hey we're making your army, can we get a seat?" Weirdly, it looks like they're also making their robots.   I think there's something to the idea that these robots are kaminotech, especially since the one has a little mowhawk ridge like the Prime Minister here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 04:59
|
|
|
Kamino goes overnight from an obscure fringe planet to the Republic's primary supplier of soldiers and military hardware, seems entirely sensible that the Republic immediately makes sure to establish ties and incorporate them. Though not sure if Kamino also produces the ships, mechs and other hardware for the clones, or that gets subcontracted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 07:35
|
|
|
The clone troopers have head fins too: The entire room that those robots are in have a very Kamino aesthetic, and it would be pretty funny if droids built by Kaminoans were (intentionally or not) unable to trace a weapon back to their creators. The droid didn't actually have a head like that until it was replaced by a CG model for the deleted scene so it may have been an intentional connection, but more likely adding a fin to it was done to strengthen the movie's retro aesthetic - since A New Hope took place in Space 1977, the prequel set 22 years earlier had to be recognizably set in Space 1955. Ghost Leviathan posted:Though not sure if Kamino also produces the ships, mechs and other hardware for the clones, or that gets subcontracted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 07:36
|
|
|
Sifo-Dyas was a big dummy and he had a massive hand in ending the Jedi. Was he also manipulated by Palpatine?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 07:50
|
|
|
moosecow333 posted:Sifo-Dyas was a big dummy and he had a massive hand in ending the Jedi. Was he also manipulated by Palpatine? Cartoon lore tells us that he didn't do any manipulation to him, only assassination and identity theft.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 07:56
|
|
|
Sifo-Dyas wasn't real. Originally he was called Sido-Dyas and the script was more explicit about it being a made up person. Lucas thought that it made the mystery too obvious, so he changed one letter of the name and just had Sheev kill the guy and assume his identity.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 07:59
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, we’re talking about the narrative before the Midichlorian twist in Episode 1. no episode one happens first it can't be revealed after. why isn't han astonished? because he knows about the force and magic powers and poo poo he explicitly does not care. it's a whole scene in episode 4
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 10:07
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:why Obiwan doesn’t shut Han up with some truly spectacular magic trick. no, we see why in the very same movie. when his sorcerous ways/religion are insulted darth vader uses his magic to nearly kill the man for his lack of faith the need to prove your magic is thus linked to evil
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 10:23
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Also everyone growing up in the immediate aftermath of Order 66 would know, concretely, that no matter what bullshit the Jedi said they could do you can just shoot them to death like regular people. This is the crux of it - the power of the Jedi religion was supposed to be that they could see the future and so even two Jedi Knights would know how to mess you up. The big jumps and bullet dodging and spoon bending is insignificant compared to a huge battle station that can blow up a planet, or even just a bunch of regular guys with guns. Order 66 demonstrates on a huge level that the Jedi can't see the future, won't know you've betrayed them ahead of time, and perhaps never could.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 10:37
|
|
|
josh04 posted:This is the crux of it - the power of the Jedi religion was supposed to be that they could see the future and so even two Jedi Knights would know how to mess you up. The big jumps and bullet dodging and spoon bending is insignificant compared to a huge battle station that can blow up a planet, or even just a bunch of regular guys with guns. Order 66 demonstrates on a huge level that the Jedi can't see the future, won't know you've betrayed them ahead of time, and perhaps never could. Eh, people in Star Wars always knew Jedi could be killed, it's just that it was usually much harder to do so than a normal person because of The Force. The EU had plenty of pre-Prequel massive wars where Jedi got killed off all the time. I think what did the Jedi in with Order 66 was A)As the Jedi became the face of the Clone Wars, leading the armies of the Republic into battle, people began to blame them for any setback/unpopular war events, B)Obviously Order 66 murdered 99% of the Jedi Order, it's pretty hard to come back from that scale of a genocide, and C)Palpatine spun a story of how the unpopular Jedi Order had attempted a coup, which was just one more thing not to like about them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 17:13
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Huh? Luke is only screaming "no" because he's reliving his father's supposed death, not Obi-Wan's death? Han is disarmed so quickly that it's "as though" the gun leapt from his hand, even though we literally saw it do that? You're replying to SMG. He does this poo poo all the time. And acts like his bizarre interpretation is widely supported and cannot possibly be rejected.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 23:27
|
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Eh, people in Star Wars always knew Jedi could be killed, it's just that it was usually much harder to do so than a normal person because of The Force. The EU had plenty of pre-Prequel massive wars where Jedi got killed off all the time. Rick & Morty's season 4 premiere deals with this. When you can see the future, you can predict your own death, so it's very difficult to kill someone like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_euWOFchqw
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 23:36
|
|
|
Grandpa Palpatine posted:You're replying to SMG. He does this poo poo all the time. And acts like his bizarre interpretation is widely supported and cannot possibly be rejected. I know. It’s just that sometimes he says something stranger than usual, and I can’t help myself. Grandpa Palpatine posted:Rick & Morty's season 4 premiere deals with this. When you can see the future, you can predict your own death, so it's very difficult to kill someone like that. Okay maybe I do need to watch this show. Because that was pretty sweet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2020 23:53
|
|
|
Grandpa Palpatine posted:You're replying to SMG. He does this poo poo all the time. And acts like his bizarre interpretation is widely supported and cannot possibly be rejected. It's fantastic content though, you just have to remember you are interacting with an incredibly committed bit.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 00:07
|
|
|
The assertion that telekinesis isn’t real is fairly uncontroversial. You may now object that it’s nonetheless real in Star Wars - but why? Star Wars is explicitly a fairy tale, yes, and we can recognize that the scientifically-impossible events nonetheless work because of a powerful libidinal investment in the idea of telekinesis. There is, of course, a “truth” rendered by the fantasmic scenario. But this truth is precisely the same as the truth of those people in the 1970s who were entranced by spoon-bending. So: what are we talking about when we talk about telekinesis? From where did this concept originate?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 00:16
|
|
|
Early drafts of Star Wars went even further into the kinds of New Age charlatanism that SMG is talking about - Lucas pulled back and made the Jedi's tricks more "real" as he refined the script to make it feel more like mythologic. Initially, the Jedi were just disciplined warriors who didn't have any real powers, but recited nonsense-sounding dictums to each other. Later, they gained the ability to to affect the bio-electric fields of other people, but had to use special crystals to do it. The destruction of the Death Star is a good example of the change. In early drafts, C-3PO was the one to fire the killing shot because as a robot he was able to calculate a better trajectory. Even the draft directly preceding the one that was filmed only implied that Luke believed his special crystal allowed him to make the shot, and it being an explicit act of faith in god is a fairly late addition. If we take to heart that Luke S is the movie version of Lucas, it seems that the reason the Force ended up becoming "real" as the creation of the films went on is because George started believing in it himself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 01:25
|
|
|
Glottis posted:I just wish they'd MCU-ize Star Wars. Make a movie about some people that can do X. Make a movie about some people that are fighting for Y. Make a movie about some people that are descended from Z. Put them all together LATER and it'll be fun. Give everyone some time to shine. Rogue One did well and those characters are explicitly dead. Cmon. I don't think copping the MCU method is the way to go (22 movies to build to an 'alright' story ejaculation is kinda something I never want to live through again), but having like the Mandelorian and maybe one more show build up to a new trilogy over the next decade would be cool.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 04:40
|
|
|
Killing off Kylo was a huge mistake. Instead, Rey should have died or become one with the Force / sacrifice herself and kill the Sith forever or whatever. Then you have an ending where Kylo has to wander the earth and try to somehow atone for all of the evil he participated in. There's your next trilogy. Pick up 15 years later or whatever with the Vong invasion story arc. But nope. Apparently it's all good because he repented and kissed Rey and died. What a terrible script. Unforgivable. The sequel trilogy could have been redeemed by having his story be one about men dealing with male insecurity and reacting to it by doing the wrong thing: being someone you are not. Then doubling down into drugs / alcoholism and killing your dad and becoming a wreck and treating women like poo poo and being abusive and horrible. Then at the end when he figures out that he's been a massive tool and a shithead, he doesn't just piss off and get forgiven. He has to live with all of the horrible poo poo he did for the rest of his life and the one person who was willing to give him a chance as a soul-mate is dead, indirectly because of him. Grandpa Palpatine fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Sep 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 04:58
|
|
|
Robot Style posted:Early drafts of Star Wars went even further into the kinds of New Age charlatanism that SMG is talking about - Lucas pulled back and made the Jedi's tricks more "real" as he refined the script to make it feel more like mythologic. Initially, the Jedi were just disciplined warriors who didn't have any real powers, but recited nonsense-sounding dictums to each other. Later, they gained the ability to to affect the bio-electric fields of other people, but had to use special crystals to do it. Even in the final version of A New Hope, it’s rather unambiguously a variation on the old Dumbo and Oz narrative where Luke is given a ‘magic feather’ / ‘university diploma’ that is objectively worthless, but gives him confidence to express himself. In this case, the trash object imbued with symbolic power by an authority figure is just a nifty-but-obsolete space knife. But we should be clear that ‘going more mythological’ doesn’t mean Lucas actually believes in all these ghosts and poo poo. The moving of the rocks is tied in with the multiple hallucination scenes. If the flying gun is to be read purely literally, then we oughta do the same with the scene where Luke decapitates an evil, taller clone of himself - a bigger Luke.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 05:04
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s where it gets weird because, yeah, the chair scene is occurring fairly late in the final film and seemingly proving that telekinesis is real. And this is really bizarre for the narrative, because it’s literally the first time Han and the rest have actually seen something levitate - yet there’s no focus on their reactions whatsoever. They don’t even seem to notice. The explanation is simple: C3P0 really did reveal himself to be a god.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 08:05
|
|
|
Wild that episode 7 has a MGS reference by way of giving a character a red arm, but not the character that resembled Big Boss and has a fake hand already.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 08:18
|
|
|
well why not posted:Wild that episode 7 has a MGS reference by way of giving a character a red arm, but not the character that resembled Big Boss and has a fake hand already. “Rey, i’m already a demon.”
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 08:20
|
|
|
Always thought if you translated Star Wars to modern day, Metal Gear is probably the closest thing. Even primarily involves taking out a superweapon single-handedly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 10:00
|
|
|
Grandpa Palpatine posted:Killing off Kylo was a huge mistake. Instead, Rey should have died or become one with the Force / sacrifice herself and kill the Sith forever or whatever. Then you have an ending where Kylo has to wander the earth and try to somehow atone for all of the evil he participated in. There's your next trilogy. Pick up 15 years later or whatever with the Vong invasion story arc. You literally just described the plot of Star Wars episodes I-VI good job
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 13:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 13:48 |
|
|
Kylo dying the way he did was the stupidest part of that movie though. It was JJ going for emotion over logic in the worst way. As weird and contradictory as Rey and Kylo's interactions were, that ending basically tried to sum it up like YA novel.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 14:42
|
|