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THS posted:that isn’t “class first” marxism that’s racist dog whistling and american exceptionalism combined with anime villain monologuing. his mistake was taking it a few steps too far in revealing alt-right bullshit. if rudatron used to not be as bad, then he definitely got a lot worse and absolutely deserved the ban yeah rudatron wasnt this bad before his glorious return. definitely went and watched too much youtube and came back to redpill the cucks here.
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Oct 14, 2020 19:35
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so rudatron went the way of tinkzorg, eh? guess the signs were all there, in hindsightunlimited shrimp posted:Look I literally just read the post he was perma'd for & wasn't following the thread so pretend I never mentioned him at all because I'm mostly just interested in how the CSPAM literati feel about Adolph Reed Jr. and other class-centered Marxists. (i haven't read enough Reed to know if he does this, though some of his boosters certainly do) unlimited shrimp posted:There was a good back & forth with him and (I think) Umair Muhammad, the gist of which was that you can't disentangle the two because race is a particular mode of class in contemporary society. I thought it was an interesting take. through this lens, exhortations to "focus on class, not race" become kind of nonsensical (excerpt below from Losurdo's "Class Struggle: A Political and Philosophical History")
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Oct 14, 2020 19:41
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whiteness itself is a property relation, and attempts to shift the focus (especially in america) away from anti-blackness to "universal" demands is just a form of white supremacy
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Oct 14, 2020 19:58
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Ferrinus posted:whiteness itself is a property relation, and attempts to shift the focus (especially in america) away from anti-blackness to "universal" demands is just a form of white supremacy right it's like trying to say -2 + 2 = 2 because -2 is actually 0.
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Oct 14, 2020 21:24
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and that's assuming the 2 is even going to be distributed evenly which lol
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Oct 14, 2020 21:26
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T-man posted:im a bernie or bust stupid bourgeois anarkiddy don't doxx me
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Oct 14, 2020 22:07
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:yeah rudatron wasnt this bad before his glorious return. definitely went and watched too much youtube and came back to redpill the cucks here. wow! the world's first bonafide Strasserite! and it was rudatron all along. go figure.
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Oct 14, 2020 23:25
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the workers' only real advantage over the bourgeoisie is sheer numeric advantage. in a very real sense racial concepts are inherently reactionary and any world view centered around racial concept, even if progressive, is fundamentally incompatible with a communist outlook. this is not to say that a communist movement doesn't need to address racism or whatever, but if you don't see solidarity across racial lines as a real possibility then you're much better off just discarding marxism altogether and start organising along racial lines
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Oct 14, 2020 23:49
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V. Illych L. posted:the workers' only real advantage over the bourgeoisie is sheer numeric advantage. in a very real sense racial concepts are inherently reactionary and any world view centered around racial concept, even if progressive, is fundamentally incompatible with a communist outlook. I feel this way about my own struggle as a trans woman. Trans people are a massive minority in the world - but workers aren't. I can demand trans rights on human rights or ethical grounds, but that's reliant on a positive media as well as reasonable people in power, neither of which are guaranteed. But workers will always outnumber owners by necessity. Oranize based on class, then organize within your orgs for trans rights in places wherein the org is failing us. This seems p good to me, imo.
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Oct 15, 2020 00:01
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V. Illych L. posted:the workers' only real advantage over the bourgeoisie is sheer numeric advantage. A weird stance to take in the Marxism thread There's that whole thing about the working class being, you know, the working class. If they don't work, society doesn't work. That's the leverage the working class has to change society
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Oct 15, 2020 00:08
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:yeah rudatron wasnt this bad before his glorious return. definitely went and watched too much youtube and came back to redpill the cucks here. I just assume its trolling because the turn was too drastic, my man making huge D&D post. I woulda just 30 day'd him then banned him the 2nd time but maybe im too lenient in pro-trolling/pro making GBS threads up c-spam lol.
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Oct 15, 2020 00:09
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white noise supremacist
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Oct 15, 2020 00:11
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any organization is going to be defined by how it works in function if you place in conflicting elements the contradiction will generate conflict which will in turn generate resolution how that conflict is managed and what resolution is reached matters for how that organization will function with greater amounts of power if your organization thus hosts someone interested in addressing minority issues and someone distinctly against it, and you resolve the conflict in favor of the against, im not sure why you would expect the organization to then take a greater interest in addressing minority issues once it has greater power
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Oct 15, 2020 00:12
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a class focused analysis of US politics would not conclude that the incarceration system is non-racist, especially when acknowledging that race is elevated in discourse to distract from class issues
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Oct 15, 2020 01:18
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you focus on class not because liberal anti-racism is like, one micrometer from COINTELPRO bullshit at worst, and unhelpful at best, but because these divides and disparities in american life are only among workers, anyway, even if those problems also impact even the upper middle class at times. herman cain wasn't getting the poo poo beat out of him at traffic stops. focusing on melinated voices or whatever is potentially helpful but i honestly think the more important thing is to shut the gently caress up if you're middle class, basically, and let the people who have external problems lead, instead of just internal ones.
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Oct 15, 2020 01:43
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https://twitter.com/showshowpod/status/1316476184218263555
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Oct 15, 2020 04:37
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https://twitter.com/writersdoing/status/1311348135101435908?s=19 loving legendary
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Oct 16, 2020 10:06
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zizek is basically a cryptid
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Oct 16, 2020 10:06
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https://twitter.com/historic_ly/status/1317029297870278656
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Oct 16, 2020 10:24
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apropos to nothing posted:i think at some point you have to say that words like anticapitalist, socialist, radical, anarchist, etc. have to mean something. concretely, calling for a vote for mike bloomberg (which chomsky says he would do if he were the dem nominee) in really any circumstance either means youre not those things, or they have no meaning. its fine to say ideally you want socialism, ideally i want to have a billion dollars. but concretely if you would call for a vote for a billionaire capitalist running on a pro-capitalist program in a capitalist party, then it kind of has the same meaning as me saying i want to have a billion dollars meanwhile i work as a teacher. i think this is a pretty fair take for the nojoe position in normal circumstances but i just got finished listening to the latest two episodes of behind the bastards about "how nice normal people made the holocaust happen" and it did a good job of making me really nervous about where we may be on the timeline toward an explicitly fascist society. the closer we get to the election the more i find myself hoping there is a massive repudiation at the ballot box of trumpism just for the sake of a signal that the american society isn't too far lost to be organized toward socialism. i don't think this has much to do with how i personally feel i should vote or not or whatever, i've kind of made my bed no matter where history heads, but the historical parallels seem so close that it makes me really nervous to try and actively persuade people to not vote for biden or the democrats.
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Oct 16, 2020 14:11
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jarofpiss posted:i think this is a pretty fair take for the nojoe position in normal circumstances but i just got finished listening to the latest two episodes of behind the bastards about "how nice normal people made the holocaust happen" and it did a good job of making me really nervous about where we may be on the timeline toward an explicitly fascist society. the closer we get to the election the more i find myself hoping there is a massive repudiation at the ballot box of trumpism just for the sake of a signal that the american society isn't too far lost to be organized toward socialism. i don't think this has much to do with how i personally feel i should vote or not or whatever, i've kind of made my bed no matter where history heads, but the historical parallels seem so close that it makes me really nervous to try and actively persuade people to not vote for biden or the democrats. If you're hard on Trump but soft on the causes of Trump then you aren't averting anything, at best you're delaying it.
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Oct 16, 2020 14:13
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jarofpiss posted:i think this is a pretty fair take for the nojoe position in normal circumstances but i just got finished listening to the latest two episodes of behind the bastards about "how nice normal people made the holocaust happen" and it did a good job of making me really nervous about where we may be on the timeline toward an explicitly fascist society. the closer we get to the election the more i find myself hoping there is a massive repudiation at the ballot box of trumpism just for the sake of a signal that the american society isn't too far lost to be organized toward socialism. i don't think this has much to do with how i personally feel i should vote or not or whatever, i've kind of made my bed no matter where history heads, but the historical parallels seem so close that it makes me really nervous to try and actively persuade people to not vote for biden or the democrats. the germans repudiated hitler at the ballot box in 1932 and it took about three months for the nazis to seize power anyway because the centrists hate socialists more than fascists
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Oct 16, 2020 14:19
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namesake posted:If you're hard on Trump but soft on the causes of Trump then you aren't averting anything, at best you're delaying it. yup, trump is a symptom of institutional rot in america (and more broadly, the world in general). the establishment democrats are another really bad symptom of it. i don't blame anyone too much if they vote biden anyway since trump is just so loving terrible but i still think the best and most ethical choice is not to participate in that two party charade, doubly so as a radical. vote downballot progressives and then spend your energy elsewhere. i think ardennes summed it up as "do you want the fascism speedrun or the fascism longplay? vote here" and while glib it sums it up imo dex_sda fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 14:20
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biden is more likely to lead to actual open fascism anyway because trump is fundamentally too dumb and lazy to actually expend the effort to fundamentally reshape the american political system, whereas four years of a complete failure of a biden admin would just pave the way for a possible competent fascist to sweep in and really get the ball rolling
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Oct 16, 2020 14:24
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Cerebral Bore posted:biden is more likely to lead to actual open fascism anyway because trump is fundamentally too dumb and lazy to actually expend the effort to fundamentally reshape the american political system, whereas four years of a complete failure of a biden admin would just pave the way for a possible competent fascist to sweep in and really get the ball rolling i think it's a bit tea-leaf reading to go that far but it's beside the more obvious point based on material analysis - that the options that can win on the ballot box in 2020 aren't likely to do anything to stop capitalism induced disaster
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Oct 16, 2020 14:29
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Cerebral Bore posted:biden is more likely to lead to actual open fascism anyway because trump is fundamentally too dumb and lazy to actually expend the effort to fundamentally reshape the american political system, whereas four years of a complete failure of a biden admin would just pave the way for a possible competent fascist to sweep in and really get the ball rolling i agree that trump is the symptom of the institutional rot that biden represents. i just cant shake the feeling right now that a biden win buys us another four years to organize and a trump win puts us a lot closer to the day that my partner and i get locked up because she’s a paid organizer. both admins would be complete failures allowing a competent fascist to pick up the reigns, but a four year reprieve of the rhetoric for the normies that arent too far gone could be really cruicial. it’s a weird historical place to be and i really have no idea what happens. ive just kind of recently been more and more nervous because it does seem like there’s a choice in front of the nation and i don’t know what we do
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Oct 16, 2020 14:38
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jarofpiss posted:i agree that trump is the symptom of the institutional rot that biden represents. i just cant shake the feeling right now that a biden win buys us another four years to organize and a trump win puts us a lot closer to the day that my partner and i get locked up because she’s a paid organizer. i understand the delay point but i think it's quite likely liberals become complacent and completely ignore political news once they "save america from trumpism." like i say, it's hard to predict but the force with which they turned their backs on metoo in the wake of their guy getting credibly accused does not fill me with any confidence. it was truly blood-boiling seeing that poo poo unfold.
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Oct 16, 2020 14:41
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dex_sda posted:i think it's a bit tea-leaf reading to go that far but it's beside the more obvious point based on material analysis - that the options that can win on the ballot box in 2020 aren't likely to do anything to stop capitalism induced disaster yeah, that's the point. four years of further deteriorating material conditions while biden sits on his rear end means that whoever credibly promises to actually fix things would win big and the gop are far more likely to move away from neoliberalism to some kind of fascist economic interventionism than the dem establishment ever will be jarofpiss posted:i agree that trump is the symptom of the institutional rot that biden represents. i just cant shake the feeling right now that a biden win buys us another four years to organize and a trump win puts us a lot closer to the day that my partner and i get locked up because she’s a paid organizer. a biden win would only unify the political establishment behind cracking down on any left-wing organizing and/or mass protest movements. at least with trump in office the dems have to pretend to oppose him
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Oct 16, 2020 14:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:yeah, that's the point. four years of further deteriorating material conditions while biden sits on his rear end means that whoever credibly promises to actually fix things would win big and the gop are far more likely to move away from neoliberalism to some kind of fascist economic interventionism than the dem establishment ever will be okay, that rings plausible. I still think it's tea-leafy cause the world is changing incredibly rapidly and chaotically rn but i'll concede that there is a material conditions based reason to think it might lead to strong reactionism by the time 2024 rolls around
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Oct 16, 2020 14:51
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Well lots of american leninists are arguing that you shouldn't vote this time. And the closest thing lenin said about the current situation is that you should use the occasion of the vote to enact your strikes and revolts and take over the country. And if you can't you should try to build strength while abusing the legal protections of bourgeois democracy. Clearly that means that the american leninists feel ready to enact a successful revolution and general strike at the voting day. Or at least they are ready to proof once again that nobody should ever trust any anglo on any socialist issue.
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Oct 16, 2020 14:52
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Also a part of the conditions for a revolution has historically been an obviously ineffectual legal opposition. Biden stands ready to proof this ineffectualness to everybody.
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Oct 16, 2020 14:54
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dex_sda posted:i understand the delay point but i think it's quite likely liberals become complacent and completely ignore political news once they "save america from trumpism." like i say, it's hard to predict but the force with which they turned their backs on metoo in the wake of their guy getting credibly accused does not fill me with any confidence. it was truly blood-boiling seeing that poo poo unfold. that’s going to be true for the people who are materially comfortable with the status quo, but not for those that feel the pressures but aren’t all on board for trump. i had a two hour conversation with my plumber the other day about politics and he is at the place where he’s voting trump because he is historically conservative and religious but has pretty contradictory feelings about the guy and the rhetoric. when we were talking about bernie and the concept of medicare for all he was supportive and kind of wistful in the way he viewed that stuff. i think it’s those kind of people that really carry a fascist into office, not the hard core right. and i think that they can be reached with the proper messaging environment but they are so vulnerable to the jingoistic trump stuff. i take a hard stance that im advocating for the things im advocating for because i care about this society and the people that live here, and you don’t get that from the liberals. trump absolutely does that. i think generally society’s political engagement is driven by the corporate media, and getting four years off of coastal libs telling everyone they’re horrible for supporting trump could open up avenues to reach them that are currently blocked by the stubborn reaction to our annoying media class. basically i don’t think socialists get to decide this election, but i also think there’s enough historical grey area to make an organizing case for voting for biden that doesn’t make you a liberal. i dont know what i really hope happens, the left didnt get to the place it is today under obama, maybe we need to keep the heat up and trump can do that. or maybe the material reality of the fact the state has abandoned the people is enough to keep them open to organization, i dont know. maybe it’s possible that people cant go back to sleep because things are objectively horrible (and wont get better under any capitalist administration), and it would be good strategically for us to have an opportunity to out organize the fascists from the edges while they dont have one in the office.
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Oct 16, 2020 15:07
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VictualSquid posted:Well lots of american leninists are arguing that you shouldn't vote this time. yeah im pretty sure i dont want the speedrun tbh, hope that doesnt make me a lib
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Oct 16, 2020 15:08
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Honestly I think trump might be better for a possible socialist solution than Biden. Most of the times a revolution(armed or in politics) happens its a combination of two opposing political class/divisions teaming up, at least in the short term. I highly doubt Biden and Pelosi are going to turn on their republican colleagues or feel any compunction about sending the feds in to break up a protest. But if trumps in charge and more and more liberals see the dems with power are doing nothing... I mean, look at Germany in 1919. The social democrats teamed up with the proto fascist freikorps to crush the Munich commune SSJ_naruto_2003 fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 15:09
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Granted, personally I don't think we are going to see a progressive (in any serious sense) elected in the US in either case due to inherent structural forces at play (two-party system with strictly controlled primaries). Even if we did, the Supreme Court is going to have veto power over Federal legislation for the next decade. I would say the worst optics for the US would be if Biden won by a sizable amount and the Supreme Court came in anyway put Trump in charge and permanently shattered the narrative surrounding American democracy (this is in comparison to 2000 where it was close enough to just tip the scales). Personally, I don't think a "clean" Trump victory is going to help the left, and if anything just doubles down on the current political arrangement and would allow the Democrats to run even farther right next time. If Biden wins (and is predictably ineffectual) it at least shows that the current system isn't working. A "dirty" Trump victory i.e soft coup shows the entire structure is rotten to the core and that if anything the US needs a second republic. I think in foreign policy terms, both are nearly the same with Biden open to moderately more internationalism. A "dirty' Trump victory would seriously put the US on the backfoot internationally since his legitimacy would be openly questioned. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 15:11
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Ardennes posted:Granted, personally I don't think we are going to see a progressive (in any serious sense) elected in the US in either case due to inherent structural forces at play (two-party system with strictly controlled primaries). Even if we did, the Supreme Court is going to have veto power over Federal legislation for the next decade. talking about this is also kind of driving home for me that there is a nonzero chance trump just stays in office and we’re already on the speedrun like it or not
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Oct 16, 2020 15:23
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Ardennes posted:I think in foreign policy terms, both are nearly the same with Biden open to moderately more internationalism. A "dirty' Trump victory would seriously put the US on the backfoot internationally since his legitimacy would be openly questioned. Biden might also be less lazy and more willing to involve himself in proxy wars, which is not good when the entire world is becoming a powder keg. last thing the water situation around india/middle east/syria needs right now is for america to stick its fingers there too. all in all foreign policy wise they are both bad. you're right that a dirty 'victory' by trump would be a spectacular self own by america.
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Oct 16, 2020 15:27
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The Occupy movement was crushed under Obama, and the Battle For Seattle was waged under Clinton. Biden isn't going to buy the left any kind of time.
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Oct 16, 2020 15:40
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in my political conversations with normal people (esp conservatives) in tx i’ve found a lot more success in completely sidestepping the liberal/conservative political spectrum and going straight to talking about democracy and bottom up organizing. i dont think the path to radicalization is one where you just get further liberal until you realize that doesnt work and become a leftist. the reason trump’s populism resonates with people is because they recognize a political class that has completely abandoned them (all politicians are crooks, etc). they’re willing to engage with you regardless of where they personally fall on that lib/con spectrum if you’re talking about organizing people democratically in sense that doesn’t fall on that. this is part of why i dont think a biden administration offers a particularly different organizing environment aside from the fact that you hopefully dont have the fascist rhetoric amplified on the media as much. this might be because im in texas and i dont have to talk to mostly liberals, i could see this perspective being different if you’re in a liberal area.
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Oct 16, 2020 15:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:The Occupy movement was crushed under Obama, and the Battle For Seattle was waged under Clinton. i think it’s more that the concentration camps aren’t being turned into death camps yet, and we aren’t taking loyalty oaths at work. im not talking about a biden administration that is somehow friendly to the left
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Oct 16, 2020 15:54
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