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MonsieurChoc posted:Uso's parents are good. Which is why they get horribly murdered. Alright son, you just stay in this shack in the woods, we've got a war to fight. We'll call you when it's over. Haro's in charge.
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Nov 24, 2020 02:50
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dogsicle posted:the whole training their child to be a revolutionary supersoldier was too sus for me Eh, gotta learn 'em early when the space fash are in town.
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Nov 24, 2020 02:51
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I think it's probably a mistake to assume much anything in Tem Ray's life changed after the oxygen deprivation. Maybe his engineering ability is a little rougher, but he was just as lovely a dad before he was spaced as he was after.
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Nov 24, 2020 03:12
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Endorph posted:yeah the only decent gundam parent i can think of who had any screentime and didnt die at the start is like, cagalli's dad Seabook's parents both seemed pretty decent from what little we see of them in F91. His dad comes across them during the fighting at the start of the movie while riding around in a normal suit with a gun, implying he's trying to defend the colony in some small way and when he recognizes Seabook's voice, ramps a motorbike off some debris, uses the air to boost his normal suit's jump, gets in to the open hatch of a mobile suit attacking the Guntank Seabook is using and shoots the pilot in the face, before going down to join Seabook and his friends, helping them in their efforts. His mom helps him find Cecily when she's lost at the end too. Seabook has some issues with her, for working for the military despite wanting to help people and I assume the mother left them for some time to do so going off the uncertainty about her status during part of the movie, when Seabook and his sister are both acting like it's been a months or even years since they've seen her, but she's still a good person when she does turn up and it just comes off like she was drawn in by her work despite good intentions.
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Nov 24, 2020 03:27
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If you count Re:Rise as an AU then Hiroto’s parents are pretty cool.
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Nov 24, 2020 04:41
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wdarkk posted:If you count Re:Rise as an AU then Hiroto’s parents are pretty cool. Sei’s parents are good too. Mom runs the hobby shop while dad is an international Gunpla super cop.
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Nov 24, 2020 04:54
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Endorph posted:yeah the only decent gundam parent i can think of who had any screentime and didnt die at the start is like, cagalli's dad Louise Halevy's mom was pretty good if I remember correctly
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Nov 24, 2020 05:45
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grassy gnoll posted:I think it's probably a mistake to assume much anything in Tem Ray's life changed after the oxygen deprivation. Maybe his engineering ability is a little rougher, but he was just as lovely a dad before he was spaced as he was after. Yeah I think the real world existence of parents with dementia or alzheimers and the personality changes they undergo have something to say about what a guy's brain and mannerisms might be like after severe permanent brain damage
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Nov 24, 2020 05:47
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tem ray probably suffered more neurological damage from being in the dark casket of his normal suit floating through the void than actual oxygen deprivation.
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Nov 24, 2020 06:13
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Endorph posted:yeah the only decent gundam parent i can think of who had any screentime and didnt die at the start is like, cagalli's dad Edit by all accounts flint from age was a good dad.
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Nov 24, 2020 06:32
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Monaghan posted:Edit by all accounts flint from age was a good dad. His own son's account doesn't count then, I guess? I don't think I've ever seen anyone say he's a good dad before. He's a better grandfather than he is a father, and even then he secretly trained his grandchild as a pilot under the guise of playing with him, then immediately drafted him in to the war at the first opportunity before trying to make him part of his own revenge-boner. So "good" is heavily qualified.
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Nov 24, 2020 06:41
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Honestly Tem isn't even that terrible of a parent from what little we see of him before he goes nuts, like yeah he's way too preoccupied with his work but it definitely came from good intentions, if anything I'm way more critical about Amuro's mom as a parent than I am Tem Ray
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Nov 24, 2020 07:08
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Amuro's mom chose earth over her family and then got upset at her son defending himself against the people who killed 5 billion civilians in under a month.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Nov 24, 2020 |
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Nov 24, 2020 16:08
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The Rays are both monstrous people and it's astounding Amuro turned out as normal as he did.
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Nov 24, 2020 17:08
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grassy gnoll posted:The Rays are both monstrous people and it's astounding Amuro turned out as normal as he did. I wish we could have seen Amuro become a father
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Nov 24, 2020 19:28
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tsob posted:His own son's account doesn't count then, I guess? I don't think I've ever seen anyone say he's a good dad before. He's a better grandfather than he is a father, and even then he secretly trained his grandchild as a pilot under the guise of playing with him, then immediately drafted him in to the war at the first opportunity before trying to make him part of his own revenge-boner. So "good" is heavily qualified. He's a poo poo grandfather, I'm not going to contest that one, but there's nothing that suggests that he was terrible to Asemu. Asemu doesn't resent his father, he just feels overshadowed by him. I mean, it's hard not to when your dad's a super smart engineer/ace pilot/military commander/x rounder. By Asumu never really resents his father for that. Plus he's shown being involved with his family and caring about his children. Asemu's insecurities never seemed to be the result of any bad parenting by Flit's part and I find it hard to blame Flint for Asemu's issues. Edit- now that I remember it, after Asemu get's assigned to Flit's command, Flit pats him pats him on the head after basically tells him that he's his father first, no matter what. Later during the episode iwhen Asumu finds out he isn't an x rounder, Flint sends him a message saying that he doesn't care that he's not an x-rounder, he believes in Asemu Now, Amuro's mom abandoning her whole family because she doesn't want to live in a space colony and giving him poo poo for defending himself against Zeon soldiers, yeah she's horrible. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Nov 24, 2020 |
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Nov 24, 2020 20:22
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Monaghan posted:He's a poo poo grandfather, I'm not going to contest that one, but there's nothing that suggests that he was terrible to Asemu. Asemu doesn't resent his father, he just feels overshadowed by him. I mean, it's hard not to when your dad's a super smart engineer/ace pilot/military commander/x rounder. By Asumu never really resents his father for that. Plus he's shown being involved with his family and caring about his children. Asemu's insecurities never seemed to be the result of any bad parenting by Flit's part and I find it hard to blame Flint for Asemu's issues. Yeah, Flit and Asemu get along really well in gen 2, and Asemu's insecurities are self-manufactured; he feels like he has a gigantic set of shoes to fill and he can't measure up. Flit is nothing if not completely supportive and understanding for most of Asemu's time in the spotlight. The two of them don't even have a falling out until after Asemu is already an adult, and their falling out is mostly over how, precisely, to stop the Vagans.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:40
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Monaghan posted:He's a poo poo grandfather, I'm not going to contest that one, but there's nothing that suggests that he was terrible to Asemu. I don't remember much of AGE, because AGE. What I do recall of their relationship though was that Flit was often a distant father and this was exemplified in the fact that he didn't even attend Asemu's wedding. Something that show's staff found so stupid once social media started making fun of it that they released an audio drama to make it so that he did attend but just wasn't shown, and had to leave early or something.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:53
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grassy gnoll posted:The Rays are both monstrous people and it's astounding Amuro turned out as normal as he did. Can't really think of anything particularly awful Tem did as a parent besides the almost standard anime trope about scientists/engineers being too preoccupied with their work
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Nov 24, 2020 20:55
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tsob posted:I don't remember much of AGE, because AGE. What I do recall of their relationship though was that Flit was often a distant father and this was exemplified in the fact that he didn't even attend Asemu's wedding. Something that show's staff found so stupid once social media started making fun of it that they released an audio drama to make it so that he did attend but just wasn't shown, and had to leave early or something. The wedding happened after Flit did his coup and was in full Anti-Vagan mode, so him not being there can actually be explained: He's either busy restructuring or running the Federation, or he and Asemu have fallen out because of Flit being kinda genocidally anti-Vagan. Although him being there and having to leave early because, again, Federation does still work. Either way, yeah, it wasn't until the end of Gen 2 when Asemu and Flit had their falling out. Like was brought up, Flit was supportive of him and said that even if Asemu isn't an X-Rounder, he's still his son and he's proud of him. The most distant he was before their falling out was just him being such a high ranking military officer that he'd get called away or be away for an extended amount of time, but even then he still did his best to make time for his family.
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Nov 24, 2020 21:06
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drrockso20 posted:Can't really think of anything particularly awful Tem did as a parent besides the almost standard anime trope about scientists/engineers being too preoccupied with their work A Japanese Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Nov 24, 2020 |
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Nov 24, 2020 21:08
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Arcsquad12 posted:A Japanese Man let me tell you about some lawyers. But in all seriousness to that convo, Uso’s parents left to lead a rebellion and left Uso in the middle of nowhere with a hang glider, a mobile suit simulator, and a pen pal they should have asked more questions about. Neither of them were even surprised when Uso showed up as a pilot, they were like “hey good to see you here son, mind helping us with our next mission?”
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Nov 24, 2020 21:25
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Arcsquad12 posted:A Japanese In the context of the OYW Tem makes perfect sense to me. There are more important things going on, like not losing the war.
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Nov 24, 2020 21:42
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Burns posted:In the context of the OYW Tem makes perfect sense to me. There are more important things going on, like not losing the war. Oh yeah, it makes sense. I was just poking fun at how widespread the "work yourself to death" mentality is in Japan that even the future of 0079 can't escape from it, even if it is justified by the presence of a genocidal threat to humanity.
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Nov 24, 2020 21:48
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One of the only Tem Ray scenes we get of him at the start of the series is him meeting Bright and being sad and wistful about things. Tem points out his son isn't much younger than Bright (Amuro is 15, Bright was 19) and feels sad that the war has gone on to the point they need kids like him on the front lines. Tem doesn't really come across as particularly unhinged until after he shows up 30 episodes later with brain damage. He's probably not a great dad, but he's not exactly Franklin Bidam either...
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Nov 24, 2020 22:20
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The origin follows the line of Tem being a bad dad imo.
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Nov 25, 2020 01:38
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Stairmaster posted:The origin follows the line of Tem being a bad dad imo. And that is definitely fair to point out because I think it gives a clue as to how people have come to understand Tem Ray over the years. That the trilogy movies (arguably) kill him off in the way they do suggests that we are perhaps not supposed to be particularly invested in the man's well-being, or even perhaps that we are to view his death as inevitable, as having been foreordained since Side 7. It seemed fairly clear to me that the point of bringing him back was to show that Amuro had lost both of his parents to war even without them actually literally dying. It's that whole "All Quiet on the Western Front" thing about how you can't go home again after war. Good father or bad, Amuro has lost him and that pains him. Still, isn't half the reason we have this thread to argue the minutia about side things that don't matter? Asking whether or not Tem Ray is as bad as the franchise has concluded he is is exactly the speed here. Omnicrom fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 02:09
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Omnicrom posted:And that is definitely fair to point out because I think it gives a clue as to how people have come to understand Tem Ray over the years. That the trilogy movies (arguably) kill him off in the way they do suggests that we are perhaps not supposed to be particularly invested in the man's well-being, or even perhaps that we are to view his death as inevitable, as having been foreordained since Side 7. It seemed fairly clear to me that the point of bringing him back was to show that Amuro had lost both of his parents to war even without them actually literally dying. It's that whole "All Quiet on the Western Front" thing about how you can't go home again after war. Good father or bad, Amuro has lost him and that pains him. It's not just an English joke to be fair. There is an entire video game (Gundam SCAD Hammers) which is basically a comedic take on Tem Ray surviving, equipping the Gundam with only the Gundam Hammer, and being an rear end in a top hat across the universe.
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Nov 25, 2020 02:14
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Tons of gundam (maybe also SRW?) games also love to make jokes about the "upgrade item" he gives amuro. Either it being a piece of poo poo as you'd expect, or secretly actually really good.
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Nov 25, 2020 02:32
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ImpAtom posted:It's not just an English joke to be fair. There is an entire video game (Gundam SCAD Hammers) which is basically a comedic take on Tem Ray surviving, equipping the Gundam with only the Gundam Hammer, and being an rear end in a top hat across the universe. Gihren's Greed V has Tem able to start his own scientist faction and this is the ending if he wins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FftRWsugcU4
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Nov 25, 2020 02:45
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Horrible Taste posted:Gihren's Greed V has Tem able to start his own scientist faction and this is the ending if he wins: Tem Rey's Army, it gets all the weird prototype mobile suits and mobile armors.
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Nov 25, 2020 04:02
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IIRC Tem Ray's module is almost always bad but sometimes has a beneficial element to it rather than being all downsides. The most infamous case I'm aware of is from SRW Alpha where it was a big debuff on the equipped unit but made it super super cheap to repair if destroyed, and you could take advantage of it by slapping it on Eva Unit 01 and let it get destroyed to activate berserk mode.
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Nov 25, 2020 04:21
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Omnicrom posted:And that is definitely fair to point out because I think it gives a clue as to how people have come to understand Tem Ray over the years. That the trilogy movies (arguably) kill him off in the way they do suggests that we are perhaps not supposed to be particularly invested in the man's well-being, or even perhaps that we are to view his death as inevitable, as having been foreordained since Side 7. It seemed fairly clear to me that the point of bringing him back was to show that Amuro had lost both of his parents to war even without them actually literally dying. It's that whole "All Quiet on the Western Front" thing about how you can't go home again after war. Good father or bad, Amuro has lost him and that pains him. I think one of the things that makes judging Tem tricky is that he's surrounded by so many astoundingly lovely dads in the genre that him just being a kinda bad dad is easy to downplay. He does care for his son, his work is that important, it's not like Amuro is abused... But Amuro is neglected. He's borderline friendless, he's disconnected from the world, he's not disciplined when he does something wrong or praised when he succeeds. We actually get CCA to compare him to another absentee father in a crisis. Bright Noa isn't as good a father as he would like to be, but when Hathaway arrives in the middle of an evacuation, we see Bright immediately give him his primary attention, Hathaway's eyes light up, and Bright gently helps him get his feet after smacking into the ceiling. Bright only stops talking to him when someone tells him about an important mission, and Bright says they can talk more later. What we see of the Noa family together suggests that, when Bright can actually get away from work, he's a good father. Meanwhile, when Amuro meets his father during the Zeon attack on Side 7, he's brusque, even rude. He doesn't ask Amuro what happened to make him leave the shelter, but just makes demands, then looks away. Focusing on his work instead of his son isn't just a cruel necessity, but something that he actively chose. Again, on the bad dad scale, Tem's not a Franklin or a Gendo. He's just... regular person crappy. But even realizing that is bad enough for poor Amuro.
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Nov 25, 2020 04:42
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chiasaur11 posted:I think one of the things that makes judging Tem tricky is that he's surrounded by so many astoundingly lovely dads in the genre that him just being a kinda bad dad is easy to downplay. He does care for his son, his work is that important, it's not like Amuro is abused... I think there's a key difference in immediacy in the two scenes that make Tem's actions less bad. The Ra Cailum was taking on passengers from the shuttle they rescued when Bright and Hathaway meet, which while there's an urgency to do Londo Bell poo poo, the battle is over and the crew is basically going about their business while Bright does captain things. He can take a moment to talk and make sure Hathaway is alright. Tem, on the other hand, is in the middle of an active battlefield, trying to coordinate engineers and crewmen to move the top secret weapons development materials to a safe area. He is, frankly, being shot at. I can't begrudge him for going "wtf why are you here get to a shelter--GET THE GUNTANK LOADED FFS!" He doesn't really have another choice in the matter, as the ATGMs exploding everywhere and giant fascist death robots punctuate. I vaguely recall a conversation between Frau and Hayato that might mention how long Tem has been away. Of all I remember of 0079, I think that's the only "bad dad" moment that doesn't have an extenuating circumstance to justify it (being shot at or brain damage).
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Nov 25, 2020 16:45
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Tem, does at least have the point of being the most comedically wrong person in all of Gundam for designing the Gundam to end the war so children his son's age won't have to fight in it. (Cut forward to Victory Gundam and the Federation general talking about the Federation's proud history of child soldiers.)
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Nov 25, 2020 16:54
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gourdcaptain posted:Tem, does at least have the point of being the most comedically wrong person in all of Gundam for designing the Gundam to end the war so children his son's age won't have to fight in it. (Cut forward to Victory Gundam and the Federation general talking about the Federation's proud history of child soldiers.) I mean, in fairness, it did essentially end the war. It was just that the corrupt governing body decided they wanted to cause a whole bunch more wars 
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Nov 25, 2020 17:02
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TheKingofSprings posted:I mean, in fairness, it did essentially end the war. They did?  The Gryps Conflict was a civil war that happened despite them, then Neo Zeon rebelled twice, then The Sleeves started some poo poo, which wasn't going to be the Federation's choice on any level, then Cosmo Babylonia tried to take over a Side before Zanscare basically took them all over and tried to take over the Earth too. At what point was the Federation's governing body responsible for deciding any of that? They may have been responsible in a "if they were better, people wouldn't rebel" way, but none of it is a decision on their part. I'd argue even that though, because almost all the leadership of Side based factions that started revolutions was doing it for personal power or ideals and using anti-Federation sentiment they specifically fanned up, rather than doing so because the Federation was actually that terrible.
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Nov 25, 2020 17:26
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See, my point is that the only thing getting spaced did to Tem is impair his abilities as an engineer, if even that. It's not like he forgot who Amuro was or that he existed - he recognizes him and processes what's happened to his son immediately - he just didn't care, and that's in line with what we know of his behavior prior to the series. Amuro lives alone in a garbage dump of his own in what is ostensibly their shared home, and Frau is the only thing keeping him from going totally feral. When Amuro tells himself that brain damage is why his father doesn't care about him anymore, he's lying to himself. He does that a lot in the first portion of the series, with his delusions about how important he is to the crew and to the war effort as the pilot of the Gundam, how he's the only one qualified to make decisions about the Gundam, etc. That facade that he's constructed first starts to break down when he gets locked in solitary, and he has to start facing what he's done and how he acts. He does a lot of growing up in the course of a year, and if he'd run into Tem later, I think that scene plays out a lot differently.
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Nov 25, 2020 17:29
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grassy gnoll posted:Amuro lives alone in a garbage dump of his own in what is ostensibly their shared home, and Frau is the only thing keeping him from going totally feral. You're making a lot of assumptions based on one scene. Amuro's room and habits in that one scene don't seem much different than even a lot of nerds who live with caring and attentive parents. The only examples we have of Tem's behaviour prior to the series is wanting to take his son in to space with him because he thinks it's important he see the Sides, and wanting to complete the Gundam asap, so that the war will be over faster and Amuro won't have to get involved in it like Bright. You can infer some of his behavior from other scenes, but it's open to interpretation and can be taken a lot of ways. Which you're choosing to do in just about the worst possible light. grassy gnoll posted:When Amuro tells himself that brain damage is why his father doesn't care about him anymore, he's lying to himself. He does that a lot in the first portion of the series, with his delusions about how important he is to the crew and to the war effort as the pilot of the Gundam, how he's the only one qualified to make decisions about the Gundam, etc. The scene with Tem takes place after that, long after he's accepted his place within the crew. He meets Tem at Side 6 about episode 35, where the solitary confinement after running away takes place around episode 20 during the Ramba Ral arc. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 17:38
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uso's parents taught him how to throw knives and left him with UC's wikipedia, as far as i'm concerned, that's high tier for gundam
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Nov 25, 2020 20:39
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