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drrockso20 posted:The thought here is that since GENESIS is a microwave based weapon it would probably be more effective against the ELS than most Gundam WMD's would be The Angel Halo would basically work just like the 00 Qan[T]'s Quantum Burst, I assume. The only downside is that it was built and operated by a genocidal dictatorship.
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Dec 13, 2020 03:42
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SEED would probably do better than a lot of settings against the ELS but not because of superweapons but because they have Prayer Revery who is probably one of the only characters in Gundam besides Setsuna who would respond to the ELS with attempts at communication instead of laser beams. The absolute most hosed setting would be IBO. The ELS are kind of the opposite of something you can hit with a big physical weapon and god knows it doesn't have the psychic communication poo poo to actually try a peaceful resolution.
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Dec 13, 2020 06:14
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would the phase shift armor work on the dainsleifs.
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Dec 13, 2020 06:30
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Endorph posted:would the phase shift armor work on the dainsleifs. How many Missles did Watfield say it'd take to power down the strike, If the dainself had enough kinetic energy to drain the battery or outsrip the power of the reactor i'm sure it'd gently caress the suit right up. Although it does bring up the much more hilarious scenario of Kira fighting Mika. Kira blasting away with his beam spam and Mika slamming Kira with his club, both completely unable to hurt the other.
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Dec 13, 2020 06:44
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That was the basic scenario presented in the post series Re:Rise Battleogue released a few weeks ago. It's not quite that even though, because Kira's units (bar the Strike; which could only power it's phase shift for so long anyway) have railguns and can fly, so he'd have a mobility advantage regardless. How much damage those railguns could do is debatable itself though, since nano-laminate is pretty hardy to physical damage too. Just not invincible like with beams. Also, in the case of CE units, I'm pretty sure the pilots inside can still be rattled around by sufficient physical trauma, even if the machine survives due to phase shift; so Mika might be able to wear Kira down with enough big hits. I'd be more interested in how nano-laminate holds up against some of the gently caress huge beam weapons in Gundam, like the Twin Buster Rifle or Twin Satellite Cannon though, personally. tsob fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Dec 13, 2020 |
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Dec 13, 2020 07:03
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If it can blow a hole on a colony gonna assume it'll overpower whatever armor an ibo suit has.
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Dec 13, 2020 07:12
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Gaius Marius posted:How many Missles did Watfield say it'd take to power down the strike
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Dec 13, 2020 07:40
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Anybody here heard the new SEED dub? Thoughts on how it compares to the original? (If anybody talked about it already, sorry I missed it.)
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Dec 13, 2020 08:19
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tsob posted:That was the basic scenario presented in the post series Re:Rise Battleogue released a few weeks ago. It's not quite that even though, because Kira's units (bar the Strike; which could only power it's phase shift for so long anyway) have railguns and can fly, so he'd have a mobility advantage regardless. How much damage those railguns could do is debatable itself though, since nano-laminate is pretty hardy to physical damage too. Just not invincible like with beams. Also, in the case of CE units, I'm pretty sure the pilots inside can still be rattled around by sufficient physical trauma, even if the machine survives due to phase shift; so Mika might be able to wear Kira down with enough big hits. Funnily enough, in CrossRays the Twin Buster Rifle and the Twin Satellite Cannon were some of the only beam weapons that could put out some actual damage against nanolaminate armor  I think Epyon's anti-ship sword was also a very powerful option.
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Dec 13, 2020 08:21
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Gaius Marius posted:If it can blow a hole on a colony gonna assume it'll overpower whatever armor an ibo suit has. We see Hashmal carve out a canyon and reduce a city to rubble in one shot, which is more damage than most beam weapons put out, including ones sufficient to punch holes in colonies. Meanwhile, Chad soaks beam fire from Hashmal's beam cannon without any damage beyond feeling a bit warm. Nanolaminate Armor is absurdly good against beams.
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Dec 13, 2020 08:24
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Given some of the anti-PS melee weapons in SEED MSV, a direct hit with a sufficiently heavy or fast melee weapon would probably blow through the armor. It's just beam weapons are an easier option.
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Dec 13, 2020 08:27
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man the vidar/mcgillis showdown is hype as hell really funny going from that to mcgillis achieving his end goal and everyone just sorta standing around confused, going "oh, uh, that's what he did all this for?"
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Dec 14, 2020 00:52
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ninjewtsu posted:man the vidar/mcgillis showdown is hype as hell
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Dec 14, 2020 05:19
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There was nothing to enforce that rule so everyone shrugged.
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Dec 14, 2020 05:41
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Monaghan posted:So many people on the internet think McGillis plan was really stupid and seem to completely ignore the context of what he was doing and hell what the show specifically told the viewer about how gjallhorn viewed bael. i'll be honest i'd have liked it a lot more if the bael gundam and mcgillis' backstory were brought up at any point before the same episode that he gets the bael agnika kaeru is brought up plenty so like, it doesn't come out of nowhere and it makes sense. it just doesn't land especially hard the first time through. it feels like a kind of retroactive "oh so that's why he keeps talking about everything like it's a storybook ok sure. oh that's the connecting leap between that and why he thought getting in this gundam would make everyone bow to him, alright. but why does he think getting in this gundam would make everyone bow to him?" and then that question is finally answered in the next episode it's like they had 30 episodes of mysterous gesturing in mcgillis' direction and then the next 5 steps of his plan were all revealed at once. which i could easily see making people interpret "his plan is inherently flawed" as something more along the lines of "this show is incompetent and expects us to buy a stupid plan as being genius" or whatever ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 06:27
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ninjewtsu posted:i'll be honest i'd have liked it a lot more if the bael gundam and mcgillis' backstory were brought up at any point before the same episode that he gets the bael That's the whole point though; We've been lead on to think he's a master tactician looking to make the world(s) a better place, and it's only at the climax we all get the rug pulled out from under us with the actual reveal of "I have the Gundam so I get to make the rules and everyone listens. It says so in my storybook!" to expose what kind of person he actually is. And just how deeply hosed Tekkadan are for hitching their wagon onto his crazy train.
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Dec 14, 2020 06:38
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ninjewtsu posted:i'll be honest i'd have liked it a lot more if the bael gundam and mcgillis' backstory were brought up at any point before the same episode that he gets the bael We got a lot of heavy hinting at McGillis's backstory, even if what it meant wasn't clear until later. Like his bad relationship with his ''''''''father''''''', how he was only adopted later, the scene with the other blonde boy in the car... I saw people speculating about some of it before it happened, at minimum, although the full magnitude of things wasn't obvious until it happened.
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Dec 14, 2020 06:55
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Neddy Seagoon posted:That's the whole point though; We've been lead on to think he's a master tactician looking to make the world(s) a better place, and it's only at the climax we all get the rug pulled out from under us with the actual reveal of "I have the Gundam so I get to make the rules and everyone listens. It says so in my storybook!" to expose what kind of person he actually is. yeah i get that, it's just weird for the bael gundam to show up and apparently it's something any gjallerhorn grunt would've known about but you're just kinda told "oh yeah, the robot that just showed up and has never been mentioned before is actually super important to gjallerhorn." it didn't need to be established as being related mcgillis' plan earlier, so much as a lot of these elements are weird to have introduced immediately before (or, in the case of bael, immediately after) they become relevant to what mcgillis is doing, which undercuts understanding what it is that mcgillis is actually doing
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Dec 14, 2020 07:58
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ninjewtsu posted:yeah i get that, it's just weird for the bael gundam to show up and apparently it's something any gjallerhorn grunt would've known about but you're just kinda told "oh yeah, the robot that just showed up and has never been mentioned before is actually super important to gjallerhorn." it didn't need to be established as being related mcgillis' plan earlier, so much as a lot of these elements are weird to have introduced immediately before (or, in the case of bael, immediately after) they become relevant to what mcgillis is doing, which undercuts understanding what it is that mcgillis is actually doing It ISN'T important though. That's the whole point of the Bael coming out of nowhere, and why it's never brought up before then; Nobody gives a poo poo about some old robot, because the Seven Stars make the rules and it's only one traumatized child that actually believes what was in an old book they read to stay sane while plotting vengeance.
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Dec 14, 2020 08:02
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I mean it's important enough that he launches a coup and the seven stars go "well you tried to murder the son of one of our members and we hate you, but you do have the gundam so we'll just wait and see if rustal can beat you or not" Like he was definitely wrong about it being an instant "I win not matter what" button but clearly the robot is important Either way though the core of my complaint is that understanding what's going on with mcgillis relies on several key points that also have not been introduced until the last second/after the last second. I think you can sell "this guy is a deluded nutcase" without that element ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 08:11
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ninjewtsu posted:I mean it's important enough that he launches a coup and the seven stars go "well you tried to murder the son of one of our members and we hate you, but you do have the gundam so we'll just wait and see if rustal can beat you or not" I think Bael was mentioned once before then in a flashback to McGillis's childhood, but I can't remember the episode, so I might have got the order wrong. I mean, it's a natural conclusion to the whole Ars Goetia theme for the Gundams, but if it was never mentioned, then yeah. It's a bit awkward.
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Dec 14, 2020 09:06
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ninjewtsu posted:I mean it's important enough that he launches a coup and the seven stars go "well you tried to murder the son of one of our members and we hate you, but you do have the gundam so we'll just wait and see if rustal can beat you or not" The thing keeping those members of the Seven Stars neutral was that McGillis had a huge army of rebellious supporters(and was keeping Almiria so that the Bauduin family had to remain neutral as well). The Bael gave them a politically convenient excuse to remain neutral, but they're basically a bunch of fence hoppers waiting to see which way the wind was blowing. Note that none of them had any issue falling in line behind Rustal after the fleet gets annihilated by Arianhrod, despite McGillis still having the Bael - if the Bael is what actually mattered at all, McGillis would still be a figure of consequence at that point. The Bael is important like the original copy of a country's founding document or the crown jewels are important - they are held with reverence and a measure of respect, but you don't get to become the King of England just because you steal the crown. McGillis thought that was the case, which is why he's a delusional idiot. Kanos fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 09:12
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yeah they werent staying out of it because of the bael, but because mcgillis and rustal have relatively comparable forces. its just that mcgillis is way worse at using his forces than rustal.
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Dec 14, 2020 13:09
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Gaius Marius posted:If it can blow a hole on a colony gonna assume it'll overpower whatever armor an ibo suit has. The thing is, the way the anti-beam coating is animated it is actually plausible that nano-laminate would just shrug them off, because the Hashmal's beam never actually hits Ride's Shiden or Chad's Rodi, and instead splits and curves around the surface of the suit like it's encountered some kind of barrier. So even a ridiculously big beam like the 00 Raiser's Raiser Sword, which is at least few thousand kilometers in length and visible from space, might not actually hit it; depending on what's causing that barrier, whether it's just an animation style thing etc. The Re:Rise Battleogue seems to suggest Sunrise views Phase Shift as essentially impenetrable by physical damage, while nano-laminate is impenetrable by beams too. Now, maybe it's just supposed to be in GBN that it's viewed that way, but without someone clarifying I'd think it's just as a general rule they hold that view personally. chiasaur11 posted:We see Hashmal carve out a canyon and reduce a city to rubble in one shot, which is more damage than most beam weapons put out, including ones sufficient to punch holes in colonies. I think calling the area it hit a city is being a little generous. It looks more like a town than a city. That aside, pretty much any beam in UC could punch a hole in a colony from what I recall, since the whole point of beam weapons is that they over-penetrate. The mega-particle cannons on Zeon's Musai class ships were doing it from episode 1 of 0079, at the very least and the Crossbone Vanguard gave their units lances with machine guns to decrease the risk to colonies they fight in or near as another example. The notable thing about bigger beams like the Twin Buster Rifle, Twin Satellite Cannon, Raiser Sword etc. isn't that they can punch holes in colonies, but that they can outright destroy the entire colony in one hit. The Hashmal's beam left a civilian population center a smoking ruin when it was fired; the Twin Satellite Cannon left an entire island a smoking ruin when it was fired. There's a difference in scale there. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 15:15
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If I remember right, IBO specifically says that Rustal has a considerably larger force than McGillis. It really does seem like that they didn't just go because of the respect for the laws of Gjallahorn. This was part of the reason a large part of Tekkadan was going "oh poo poo" when they realized that Rustal and co weren't backing down. McGillis was also expecting the other members to team up with him to take down Rustal and was surprised when they did not. Keep in mind McGillis was just caught killing other members of the seven stars and starting an entire rebellion and he's only been a member of the seven stars for like 2 years up to this point and half of the seven stars STILL didn't just team up with Rustal and destroy this punk. Bael is obviously important. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 17:03
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Monaghan posted:If I remember right, IBO specifically says that Rustal has a considerably larger force than McGillis. It really does seem like that they didn't just go because of the respect for the laws of Gjallahorn. This was part of the reason a large part of Tekkadan was going "oh poo poo" when they realized that Rustal and co weren't backing down. McGillis was also expecting the other members to team up with him to take down Rustal and was surprised when they did not. McGillis was positioned in control of the Earth, while Rustal was invading from space. Rustal might have a larger force in aggregate, but McGillis was absolutely in better position to whomp on any of the neutral Seven Stars who tried to raise a hand against him before Rustal decided the issue.
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Dec 14, 2020 17:13
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Kanos posted:McGillis was positioned in control of the Earth, while Rustal was invading from space. Rustal might have a larger force in aggregate, but McGillis was absolutely in better position to whomp on any of the neutral Seven Stars who tried to raise a hand against him before Rustal decided the issue. Part of it was being written in such a way you could just take on faith that McGillis knew what he was doing and had a chance of beating Rustal via superior tactics. Right up until the Bael activation occurs and we're made to realize Tekkadan's stuck following a man whose dream has just run head-first into reality and refusing to accept it not going to plan.
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Dec 14, 2020 17:41
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There was a belief shared by many that there was a solid plan in place. And then suddenly, there wasn't.
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Dec 14, 2020 18:05
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tsob posted:The thing is, the way the anti-beam coating is animated it is actually plausible that nano-laminate would just shrug them off, because the Hashmal's beam never actually hits Ride's Shiden or Chad's Rodi, and instead splits and curves around the surface of the suit like it's encountered some kind of barrier. So even a ridiculously big beam like the 00 Raiser's Raiser Sword, which is at least few thousand kilometers in length and visible from space, might not actually hit it; depending on what's causing that barrier, whether it's just an animation style thing etc. The Re:Rise Battleogue seems to suggest Sunrise views Phase Shift as essentially impenetrable by physical damage, while nano-laminate is impenetrable by beams too. Now, maybe it's just supposed to be in GBN that it's viewed that way, but without someone clarifying I'd think it's just as a general rule they hold that view personally. To be fair that has less to do with how powerful beam weapons are and how badly made Space Colonies in Gundam are compared to what the real thing would be like
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Dec 14, 2020 22:47
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drrockso20 posted:To be fair that has less to do with how powerful beam weapons are and how badly made Space Colonies in Gundam are compared to what the real thing would be like I mean most of the outer wall of Island Iffish is recognizable after smacking into the earth for 60 gigatons worth of boom so i feel like colonies are in fact pretty durable in a non-beam context.
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Dec 15, 2020 01:26
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There's like no way something the size of a colony wouldn't leave a Yucatan size crater that can only be seen from space, right? Aren't like continent killing asteroids the size of a few football fields? What, did Zeon fire the colony thrusters on the way down?
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Dec 15, 2020 01:28
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Marx Headroom posted:There's like no way something the size of a colony wouldn't leave a Yucatan size crater that can only be seen from space, right? Aren't like continent killing asteroids the size of a few football fields? What, did Zeon fire the colony thrusters on the way down? Only a chunk of the colony hit Australia. Tianem's fleet attacked it during the drop and it split into 3. One of the pieces hit the ocean, killing a mass amount through tsunami's But yeah it's still way less destruction than it should be.
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Dec 15, 2020 01:49
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Marx Headroom posted:There's like no way something the size of a colony wouldn't leave a Yucatan size crater that can only be seen from space, right? Aren't like continent killing asteroids the size of a few football fields? What, did Zeon fire the colony thrusters on the way down? Probably. The Chicxulub impactor was anywhere from 11 - 81 km in diameter, but it weighed between 1.0 x 10^15 and 4.6 x 10^17 kg and going pretty fast (20 km/s) and had a pretty steep angle of impact. So a colony drop should have a pretty big crater, but not 150+ km large. But it would probably cause a lot of climate effects and a fuckton of toxic materials sent into the atmosphere.
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Dec 15, 2020 01:57
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wdarkk posted:I mean most of the outer wall of Island Iffish is recognizable after smacking into the earth for 60 gigatons worth of boom so i feel like colonies are in fact pretty durable in a non-beam context. What work even features the aftermath of the impact? The Origin OVA, I assume? Marx Headroom posted:There's like no way something the size of a colony wouldn't leave a Yucatan size crater that can only be seen from space, right? Aren't like continent killing asteroids the size of a few football fields? What, did Zeon fire the colony thrusters on the way down? The Chixulub asteroid that killed the dinosaurs is estimated to be between 11km and 81km in diameter. Which is a bit bigger than a few football fields, even on the low end. The thing is, an asteroid is going to have a lot more mass than something that's mostly hollow like a colony cylinder, even if they're roughly the same size because an asteroid is basically solid metal and rock all the way through. It's also likely to be travelling a good bit faster, since it's probably going to have had millions, or even billions of years careening through space picking up speed by grazing the orbit of various celestial bodies while Isle Iffish had a few days on a trip from a Lagrange Point to the Earth. Now, apparently Zeon managed to speed it up to 11km/s a second using nuclear pulse engines in conjunction with the Earth's gravity, which is kind of a horseshit number since it'd mean it could journey from the a Lagrange Point to Earth in 10 hours once up to that speed. If they can gin up that kind of speed on something the size of a loving space colony, there's really no reason they can't get that kind of speed out a warship or something. Ships in UC generally take about a week to make the same journey though, as did Isle Iffish, despite the kind of speeds it apparently hit by the time it hit atmosphere. Assuming it did have that kind of speed as detailed by databooks though, it's still only about half the speed of an impactor like the one that killed the dinosaurs and caused the crater near Yucatan. So the colony cylinder was a lot lighter, a lot slower and depending on the impactor in question, probably smaller too. It still did a number on Australia's coast, according to most depictions, but the actual damage it caused is probably out of scale with what it should do, since it's a lot lighter, a lot slower and at best about half again as big as impactors that cause mass extinctions and still only leave craters about 150km or so in diameter and about 20km deep. As a note though, if Zeon planned the route carefully so that the colony would meet the Earth travelling in the opposite direction, then they could actually increase the relative speed of the impact by slowing the colony down because the Earth would be travelling relatively faster as it collided with the colony. Londo Bell could also probably have saved themselves some trouble by trying to increase the speed of Axis so that it was travelling too fast to "fall" in to Earth's atmosphere when it did hit the gravity well, skimming across it and out the other end due to the increased speed. As is, they were actually kind of making things worse for much of the final stretch of the film. Orbital mechanics are kind of weird and counter-intuitive. Which is even presuming that I have that right, honestly, since I'm only nominally familiar with them and quite possibly got things hosed up. tsob fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 01:58
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Okay, not as bad as I thought. I really appreciate how some of the Gundam science (eg Lagrange points) rides the scientific accuracy line just close enough to make you think.
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Dec 15, 2020 02:01
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tsob posted:What work even features the aftermath of the impact? The Origin OVA, I assume? You see the colony in The Plot to Assassinate Gihren. It's one of the things that makes the protagonist go "Are we the baddies, Hans?" (He's also such a bad Mobile Suit pilot that he gets fired and sent back to space) Speaking of bad pilot protagonists, I finished Sentinel. You know how people sometimes talk about Nena and Wang Liu Mei in 00 Season 2 being a waste of screentime since none of their plots actually matter to the wider narrative? It's like that, but for almost everyone. We spend a ton of time on the villains, but none of their internal conflicts change how they interact with the protagonists. We spend time on one of the supporting characters, and his death doesn't have any impact on the plot. And then there's ALICE, supposedly the center of the plot. Except, despite having the most character growth and being the one to actually kill the villains, she just... dies at the ending, without even talking to anyone else. (Somehow, splitting up the EX-S, one of its basic functions, kills the AI with no backup. Genius design.) The whole thing is a kind of a wet fart of a conflict. I know that on a meta level, it wasn't allowed to change anything, but it doesn't even leave the surviving characters with interesting growth that future works might want to reference. It's just a bunch of people and Mobile Suits showing up where they couldn't, then dying. Sound and fury, signifying nothing. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 02:04
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chiasaur11 posted:You see the colony in The Plot to Assassinate Gihren. Sentinel is one of those things that's got the makings of something interesting rather than something that is interesting. It's weird because they DID plan a Sentinel 2  So you think they would have left things to be built off
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Dec 15, 2020 05:02
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Dec 15, 2020 05:34
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I thought that the destruction from the colony drop was more through the colony splitting up on reentry thanks to the fleet redirecting it from Jaburo? With three big chunks falling across the globe and an entire shoal zone's worth of debris striking in a massive meteor shower that seems like it would be the real killer, not just the force of the impact that killed Sydney.
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Dec 15, 2020 06:26
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Arcsquad12 posted:I thought that the destruction from the colony drop was more through the colony splitting up on reentry thanks to the fleet redirecting it from Jaburo? With three big chunks falling across the globe and an entire shoal zone's worth of debris striking in a massive meteor shower that seems like it would be the real killer, not just the force of the impact that killed Sydney. Yes and notably the Dublin drop, while still devastating, didn't cause nearly the destruction of British, because that colony was unscathed when it impacted.
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Dec 15, 2020 06:30
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