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Fearless posted:And another was a barely concealed Slaaneshi. Wait who was the Slaaneshi? Nobody seemed overly horny or sexy (Spoiler tag it if it's in the first two night Lords books, otherwise just tell me I haven't met them  )
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Dec 27, 2020 00:18
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Iron Warriors are too busy playing RTS games and replacing their heads with machine guns to worship the gods.
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Dec 27, 2020 00:28
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Didn't Honsou do some decidedly un iron warriors poo poo with regards to that whole "purity" thing they're supposed to have going on?
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Dec 27, 2020 00:33
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NUMBER 1 FULCI FAN posted:Wait who was the Slaaneshi? Nobody seemed overly horny or sexy Not sure which book - Cyrion.
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Dec 27, 2020 00:42
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Every legion is hosed up in some way, every legion is poisoned by its ideology, but the loyalist legions managed to try to compensate for their flaws and demonstrate some humility and the chaos legions just fell rear end first into their own bullshit. The night lords are the perfect illustration of this. One of my favorite scenes in 40k fluff is where Curze is hallucinating and Sevatar goes to meet him in his mind, and Curze says something like “I hate you all because you are just sadists who torture people for fun. That makes you evil, I do this because I have to and because it’s the only way to keep humanity’s evil in line, but I hate myself for it and I hate that I have to do it.” And sevatar comes right back with “how do you know it’s the only way? It’s the only way you’ve tried. You love murder and torture as much as the rest of us, you hypocrite, you just can’t accept that about yourself.” Curze had a really complete character arc and died thinking he was vindicated, but he wasn’t “right.” Nobody was. Every chaos legion thought they were smart enough to use chaos against the greater evil of the emperor and every chaos legion was wrong. Every loyal legion thought the emperor’s vision was worth defending and they were all wrong! The Horus heresy books are in many ways a mess and the quality varies tremendously but I do like how effective they are at capturing the idea that history is about points of view. And that doesn’t mean “guy who wants to skin 1000000 people alive” is equally right with “guy who doesn’t want to do that” but it does mean that the legions who fell did so for reasons other than being “so darn evil.”
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Dec 27, 2020 02:04
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Except Erebus. If Child of Chaos is anything to go by he was born an evil rear end in a top hat an he loves every minute of it. Probably wakes up every morning looks into a mirror and says "How can I be the biggest dick head imaginable today."
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Dec 27, 2020 02:28
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Having just finished Fulgrim, it seems a full-on tragedy with Fulgrim himself realizing the horror of what he's done but doomed forever to watch the daemon make him do even worse. Interesting and unexpected bit was Horus saying he will free his brother eventually as even he is horrified by such a fate. Of course, maybe he's lying to himself, but the fact he still has to rationalize his actions is something. But it really does seem like the Emperor's Children fell first and hardest. Horus and his Legion just seem like assholes at present, not daemonic or insane assholes. I wonder how much Bile has to do with that given how he was tinkering with all of their bodies. Like Erebus and Lucius, he seems to have just always been a total piece of poo poo who kept on being a piece of poo poo once they started to serve Chaos. From what I know of his novels, he isn't even a big fan of Chaos and denies the Gods. Reminds me of...Ahriman is a big name I just heard of? Another Chaos Space Marine who denies Chaos' mastery over him. Seems very delusional to me but oh well. Not sur what to read next since I'm told 1-5 are "in order" but then everything else is just all over.
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Dec 27, 2020 02:48
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Finished up Infinite and Divine, bolt-porn segments really did feel like clunky-add-ons to an otherwise really fun romp. I can't stop imagining that 1/2 the time Orikan/Trazyn were snarking at each other via "interstitials" that they were just spamming necron memes.
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Dec 27, 2020 03:28
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Fulgrim was the most psychologically brittle of the Primarchs early on. His fall more than anyone else’s is about his weakness rather than his ambition or hubris. Unfortunately The Reflection Crack’d, in addition to being probably the worst piece of prose in the HH series, undoes all the fulgrim development in the first five books and makes him just another mind lashed servant of chaos
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Dec 27, 2020 03:31
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Fulgrim was the most psychologically brittle of the Primarchs early on. His fall more than anyone else’s is about his weakness rather than his ambition or hubris. Unfortunately The Reflection Crack’d, in addition to being probably the worst piece of prose in the HH series, undoes all the fulgrim development in the first five books and makes him just another mind lashed servant of chaos ah yes the one with the butt plug
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Dec 27, 2020 09:16
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If only it was that mundane.
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Dec 27, 2020 09:22
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well I didn't want to spoil the surprise entirely
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Dec 27, 2020 09:29
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it’s rare that a short story is so bad that it retroactively makes other much longer stories worse but mcneill pulled it off, absolute masterstroke
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Dec 27, 2020 15:20
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Telsa Cola posted:My interest in AoS is literally will Gotrek find Felix or not. This is the only interesting bit of AoS. It’s a universe where nothing really matters. The old world felt more consequential.
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Dec 27, 2020 20:58
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I'm just a few pages into Brutal Kunnin and it's looking really fun.
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Dec 27, 2020 23:35
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Curze had a really complete character arc and died thinking he was vindicated, but he wasn’t “right.” Nobody was. Every chaos legion thought they were smart enough to use chaos against the greater evil of the emperor and every chaos legion was wrong. Every loyal legion thought the emperor’s vision was worth defending and they were all wrong! The Horus heresy books are in many ways a mess and the quality varies tremendously but I do like how effective they are at capturing the idea that history is about points of view. And that doesn’t mean “guy who wants to skin 1000000 people alive” is equally right with “guy who doesn’t want to do that” but it does mean that the legions who fell did so for reasons other than being “so darn evil.” I mean, he was though. The Imperium only survived because it's willing to use Assassins, and terror weapons, and generally be itself. He's quite literally right about that, and his Dad was wrong.
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Dec 28, 2020 06:13
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thocan posted:Oh yeah, absolutely. I guess I just thought someone as powerful as Ravenor would have *some* inkling that something was going on. Though the semi-horror of things starting to manifest on the ship was fun. He did, he was just throw off the path by Zael (of the coincidental name) being around and being a Mirror Psycher, whatever that is. Plus his sense of perspective getting totally hosed all to hell by the death in the warband, the return of an old enemy, and the return of a doppelganger of an old love. Until this conversation, I hadn't consciously thought about how brilliantly Abnett pulled all that together - by all rights Ravenor, a person whose psychic abilities only find their upper bound by plot necessity, should have known something was weird and wrong, but he was too caught up in his own bullshit and red herrings to notice. Thanks for that. My new greatest unresolved irritation with Eisenhorn and Ravenor is how the idea of psychic blankness is handled so inconsistently. Edit - are we spoiling big Ravenor plot points at this point? I tried to talk obliquely because I don't like using spoiler tags.
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Dec 28, 2020 06:57
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Shockeh posted:I mean, he was though. The Imperium only survived because it's willing to use Assassins, and terror weapons, and generally be itself. He's quite literally right about that, and his Dad was wrong. Both the Imperium and Curze justify their use of terror weapons as "needing" to be used but there are plenty of alternatives.
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Dec 28, 2020 08:37
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Shockeh posted:I mean, he was though. The Imperium only survived because it's willing to use Assassins, and terror weapons, and generally be itself. He's quite literally right about that, and his Dad was wrong. I mean, curze believed “you have to constantly brutalize people with the most savage terror imaginable to keep them in line.” Most depictions of the imperium show it using a wide variety of methods of social control, most of all religion! Curze was absolutely wrong, and the reason we know this is that the imperium functions day to day without building huge cathedrals of living flesh and flaying people alive in the public square. Even in Curze’s time the great crusade needed discipline, sometimes very harsh discipline. What made him wrong wasn’t that he killed people for stepping out of line, it’s that he only ever had one setting, which was “nightmarish horror movie brutality” deployed the instant anyone stole a loaf of bread.
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Dec 28, 2020 13:50
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Curze was a product of his horrible upbringing. Genetically engineered demi-god or not, he grew up unaided in a violent, sadistic environment, no surprise that he turned out to be a bastard. I wonder what would have happened if he landed on Ultramar instead.
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Dec 28, 2020 14:25
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Also it's telling that Curze turned his planet into a strict law abiding society based entirely on fear of retribution, and the minute he left on crusade it all fell apart.
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Dec 28, 2020 14:35
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Angry Lobster posted:Curze was a product of his horrible upbringing. Genetically engineered demi-god or not, he grew up unaided in a violent, sadistic environment, no surprise that he turned out to be a bastard. I wonder what would have happened if he landed on Ultramar instead. Yeah, ever primarch was shaped by where they landed and a bunch of them just had no chance from day one Luckily my boy Ferrus was pretty chill on his hellworld
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Dec 28, 2020 17:22
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Silly Newbie posted:He did, he was just throw off the path by Zael (of the coincidental name) being around and being a Mirror Psycher, whatever that is. That's an Extremely Good Take, I hadn't thought about how intentionally that was done.
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Dec 28, 2020 18:49
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah, ever primarch was shaped by where they landed and a bunch of them just had no chance from day one I think there has been some effort put into the backstory to put the lie to that. Perturabo landed on a basically functioning society and was taken in by its leader, like Guilliman. Lion el'Jonson landed in the middle of a monster-infested wood, plus all the monsters were Chaos tainted. Fulgrim landed on a planet that was dealing with shortages, but had a fundamentally functional society; Sanguinius landed on an irradiated desert wasteland. I could go on-- look at where Corax wound up (and what he did there)! I will grant you that Angron was basically hosed from Day 1, though.
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Dec 28, 2020 21:28
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think there has been some effort put into the backstory to put the lie to that. Perturabo landed on a basically functioning society and was taken in by its leader, like Guilliman. Lion el'Jonson landed in the middle of a monster-infested wood, plus all the monsters were Chaos tainted. Fulgrim landed on a planet that was dealing with shortages, but had a fundamentally functional society; Sanguinius landed on an irradiated desert wasteland. I could go on-- look at where Corax wound up (and what he did there)! Most primarchs had real father figures or at least, communities that took them in. Curze was particularly hosed because he was alone since he was a baby, plus the disturbing visions, like Talos but worse. Perturabo also was alone until he grew up and the tyrant of Olympia took him in, not much as a father, but as a lord, at that point Perturabo already was a cold brooding loner. Sure, some primarchs got out apparently ok from their lovely worlds or just slightly damaged, like Sanguinius and his secret fear of being a warp-tainted mutant.
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Dec 28, 2020 21:57
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Both the Imperium and Curze justify their use of terror weapons as "needing" to be used but there are plenty of alternatives. Obviously in reality there is; In the 41st Millenium as told by GW? Probably not. The Imperium is only still there at all because it’s as ruthless as it is. (Don’t mistake me here for being one of the ‘Imperium are the good guys, actually’ here, that’s not my position at all, by the way.)
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Dec 28, 2020 22:07
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Ferrus Manus is also another of the Primarchs who had zero human contact until adulthood. Though it needs to be mentioned that the time to adulthood for a primarch once the pod hits the ground is something like a few years.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:25
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Shockeh posted:Obviously in reality there is; In the 41st Millenium as told by GW? Probably not. The Imperium is only still there at all because it’s as ruthless as it is. It should be noted that the galaxy of 40k was originally heavily influenced by 2000AD style dystopias (think judge Dredd) where horrific Draconian government was justified by the terrible world people lived in. Did dystopian hellscapes also routinely featured some society that was actually nice, typically until it encounters said Draconian system and gets murderised. Which is part of the joke that people who want to basically stamp on a human face forever justified by his terrible the world is use the suffering and destruction they want to inflict as the justification for acting that way. The Imperium is at war with every xenos species in every sector in part because the Imperium declares war on every loving xenos species it encounters everywhere. That's a typical underlying humour in the style of sci fi that 40k sprang out of, usually done by having overly nice naive alien species named whose blood can be used as rejuvenant drugs and get annexed and basically extracted by evil humans who then complain that all xenos are evil and those who don't fight get wiped out. At this stage the only way it can exist is through the kind of brutal reputation it uses but that situation largely exists because the Imperium embraces that kind of mind set. Real life analogy of people arguing that only the dedicated fanaticism of pure Aryan Nazism could have allowed the German system to last so along against the combined forces of the allies. Sure they did some morally terrible things but you have to admit no one else could possibly have accomplished the kind of feats they did. Conveniently ignoring the unnecessary warmongering and aggression that led to them being in that state and basically made that kind of destruction inevitable.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:04
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think there has been some effort put into the backstory to put the lie to that. Perturabo landed on a basically functioning society and was taken in by its leader, like Guilliman. Lion el'Jonson landed in the middle of a monster-infested wood, plus all the monsters were Chaos tainted. Fulgrim landed on a planet that was dealing with shortages, but had a fundamentally functional society; Sanguinius landed on an irradiated desert wasteland. I could go on-- look at where Corax wound up (and what he did there)! Well yeah, they weren't 100% shaped by their environment but it did affect all of them in different ways. Angron and Konrad were pretty hosed from day one while other were just assholes. Telsa Cola posted:Ferrus Manus is also another of the Primarchs who had zero human contact until adulthood. Ferrus went around killing monsters and drowning wyrms as a cool wandering king while the other primarchs in similar situations ended up like lion eljohnson
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Dec 28, 2020 23:22
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Don't each Primarch have some kind of genetic flaw that exists in them which is then passed onto their children Space Marines? MrNemo posted:It should be noted that the galaxy of 40k was originally heavily influenced by 2000AD style dystopias (think judge Dredd) where horrific Draconian government was justified by the terrible world people lived in. Did dystopian hellscapes also routinely featured some society that was actually nice, typically until it encounters said Draconian system and gets murderised. It's like how the Emp crowned himself as Emperor of all mankind with unparalleled political and personal power and then people started to worship this godlike being as a god. Who could have seen this coming?!
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Dec 29, 2020 00:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Don't each Primarch have some kind of genetic flaw that exists in them which is then passed onto their children Space Marines? All but Guilliman, I think.
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Dec 29, 2020 00:54
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm on my 5th book of HH and two things stick out to me: Ahh this actually gives me a book to recommend for AoS Scourge of Fate. Which is a look at Chaos culture in AoS as Chaos has been on the winning side for a long time in AoS and thus we see how some of it's people live in the seat of it's power there. It's about a Chaos Knight hoping to finally become a member of the Varanguard the elite soldiers of the Everchosen who answer only to him. lenoon posted:This is the only interesting bit of AoS. It’s a universe where nothing really matters. The old world felt more consequential. Then I will tell you that this is wrong. Quite a few things matter in AoS. And I am happy that AoS does not seem to be beholden to status quo like the other GW stuff. As major changes to the setting can happen. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 01:22
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NikkolasKing posted:Don't each Primarch have some kind of genetic flaw that exists in them which is then passed onto their children Space Marines? It depends on how you define it, at least a couple of the flaws of some some the legions can be argued to be weird psyker feedback imprint from their primarch having a moment. Imperial fists get extremely depressed though that ties into when Dorn realized he hosed up or something, unless that's been retconned. I'd also argue that poo poo the Iron Hands go through is entirely cultural based and enforced and they just doubled down after his death. Ferrus Manus is on record stating he's not a huge fan of his hands and the bionic craze the legion is undergoing and that he's going to address it when he gets the chance. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 01:31
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Telsa Cola posted:
Be a shame if something happened to him before he could.
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Dec 29, 2020 01:39
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I will grant you that Angron was basically hosed from Day 1, though. I don't know about that. Angron is basically Evil Spartacus, and there's a lot of versions of that story which don't end with him deciding that the slavers were right, everyone deserves chains, and human life is worthless.
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Dec 29, 2020 01:44
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Kaal posted:I don't know about that. Angron is basically Evil Spartacus, and there's a lot of versions of that story which don't end with him deciding that the slavers were right, everyone deserves chains, and human life is worthless. spartacus didn't have the portions of his brain that can feel emotions other than pain and rage surgically excised, though a big part of the plot of betrayer is that angron will literally die within months or weeks, certainly before the end of the heresy, and there is absolutely no way to stop it without making him into a daemon. that's about as railroaded as you can get, imo. poor guy.
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Dec 29, 2020 01:48
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Kaal posted:I don't know about that. Angron is basically Evil Spartacus, and there's a lot of versions of that story which don't end with him deciding that the slavers were right, everyone deserves chains, and human life is worthless. Angron didn't have a chance once he got the nails. They don't just cause pain/make him angry, they've literally replaced a very large percentage of his brain. He doesn't have the ability to decide something else because he doesn't have the parts of his brain that would think that way. It's like one of those people that turn into horrible, violent jerks after having a severe brain injury.
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Dec 29, 2020 01:49
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Telsa Cola posted:It depends on how you define it, at least a couple of the flaws of some some the legions can be argued to be weird psyker feedback imprint from their primarch having a moment. Yeah the Iron Hands flaw is that they hate themselves a lot because of their failure during the drop site massacre and they express their self loathing through extreme body dysmorphia and rage at their own allies Also they're probably gay
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Dec 29, 2020 01:55
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Self loathing gay space marines? Finally a chapter that's relatable
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Dec 29, 2020 02:03
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The Emperor arriving at Nuceria and scanning the place: Well poo poo, he was supposed to learn that space colonialism and subjugation is necessary for stability and peace for the galaxy. ... gently caress it, I can work with this.
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Dec 29, 2020 02:26
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